OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[kerravon]

Holy Crap!!!! Has V totally lost his mind? How can he justify DOING that? Expedience?!?!!!!

(Not that I don't wish sometimes that our criminal justice system had the same option...)

[Kaihaku]

It depends on motives, I think. It was not noble but neither is coup de graeing sleeping kobolds. It could be Chaotic, Neutral, or Evil. If it hadn't been a surprise attack, I could see a Chaotic Good character doing it. The laws are corrupt, defend yourself sort of thing. In this situation, I think it was Chaotic, personally...a sign of V's further descend into insanity.

[see]

Ugh, what a dismal cop-out.

I dreaded this sort of outcome over the last few strips, and now that it's arrived, it's as drearily anticlimatic as expected.

This sort of ending doesn't only destroy a promising future plotline, it also actively taints and spoils everything leading up to it - Burlew is in effect openly conceding this entire sub-plot's ultimate irrelevance with such a perfunctory ending that directly admits the plot's incidental nature. This corrupts the memory of several dozen comics with a deflating sense of purposelessness.

A very bad call, and a very disappointing strip. :(

You play much D&D? If V had let him live, V would have been acting utterly out-of-character. This is exactly what PCs like V do, because players are independent agents who consider their own convenience, and will act to short-circuit drama if it suits them. And thus it is absolutely perfect for this comic strip, which is, after all, based in the conventions of a D&D game.

[Kaihaku]

You play much D&D? If V had let him live, V would have been acting utterly out-of-character. This is exactly what PCs like V do, because players are independent agents who consider their own convenience, and will act to short-circuit drama if it suits them. And thus it is absolutely perfect for this comic strip, which is, after all, based in the conventions of a D&D game.

True story.

[sednanalien]

Moral of Story? Never give your nefarious scheme exposition within earshot of any PC

[Crinos]

Well its about effin time someone did something about Kubota.

Personally I would have preferred my theory: That upon returning to his ship Kubota discovers the linear guild waiting for him, wanting to recruit Therkla, who happens to be Thogs little sister. Kubota tries to bull**** his way out of trouble, but Thog is too stupid to listen to reason, and Nale isn't interested in allying with Kubota when its easier to just kill him and let Sabine take on his form.

Cue Thog throwing Kubota overboard and Kubota drowning due to his armor and craptacular swim check.

I hope they show a scene with Kubota in OOTS setting hell where Qarr chastises him for his failure seconds before he is turned into a mindless lemure.

[Warren Dew]

Nice. A hilarious strip with character development and plot advancement, all at the same time! I only regret that I didn't see it first on a smaller monitor (mine shows the whole page at once).

On the armor - if Haley finds out, she may be upset, but to Vaarsuvius, it's just incriminating junk that only a meat shield could use.

On bringing Vaarsuvius to trial,

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I doubt very much that it will happen. I don't think Vaarsuvius is interested in standing trial, and I don't think the police forces of the fleet can capture and hold an unwilling Vaarsuvius.

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The fleet and Hinjo are safe for now, and there is no more reason for the order to stay with the azurites.

In fact given Elan's nature they need to leave as soon as possible (the Kato's can keep a secret but Elan must be kept away from Hinjo). They may go back to their quest.

I tend to agree, though I also tend to be wrong in this kind of prediction.

[The Wanderer]

I can't be the only one who thinks Vaarsuvius executing a helpless man and then destroying the evidence is not a good thing.

Nope, you're not. Two strips ago I was pointing out to some folks that if V did come along, disintegrate Kubota's boat and then let him drown in his armor, it would be a furthering of V slipping towards evil.

As it is, this is an even bigger step towards the proverbial dark side. The deepening of V's personal darkness may be the biggest and longest running effect this subplot will have on the comic.

[shylocxs]

Wow, now I'm afraid of V.

And so delighted! My second favorite character death so far (that irritating paladin will still be something I will always rejoice over).

[Fanatic-Templar]

I very much doubt that Vaarsuvius will be going Raistlin on us. Sure, if she continued on this path, it might eventually come to that, but I believe this is merely a continuation on the theme the comic has had since the end of the battle in Azure City, which is that the Order of the Stick falls apart when Roy isn't there. I suspect that when Roy returns... well, things won,t simply go back to how they were before, but 'all will be well', so to speak.

Also, while in my opinion not one of V's greater moments, I can appreciate this as part of her character development. It's certainly not affected me like that truly horrific instance back in the City.

[Dalek Kommander]

Hinjo will likely be mad at him, but with no proof Hinjo can't take any official action against V. V won't really care.

Not to mention, would YOU want to try to arrest a wizard who turns thirty-foot tall demons to stone and disintegrates mere nobles with a single word?

[ericgrau]

I'm gonna say V's act was lawful good. Seriously. It just takes a little common sense and a lot less nitpicking.

Is he in trouble? Heck ya... except they can't make a case, and that's not just because the evidence is gone (though it helps). I expect some angry words, if anything.

[David Argall]

Here's the thing: I don't think V gave a rat's ass whether Kubota eventually walked or not. V executed him because the trial would take up too much time.

You are jumping to conclusions here. V has much better motive than that.
For starters, V would not be bothered by a trial at all. She is not at all a necessary witness. At most, she would spend a few minutes on the stand telling details others already had told. From her view, Kubota's trial is a trivial issue. He will spend far more time convincing Hinjo not to try her and should he be put on trial for killing Kubota, the distraction would be major. Definitely a bad idea to kill Kubota if the trial is the big concern.

V doesn't even know that Kubota killed Therkla, he/she just wanted the distractions to stop.

The distractions include summoning a major devil, arranging an attempted ambush of the mission to the orcs, summonsing a long list of monsters to attack... Large numbers have been killed, and if we assume Kubota was correct, his death saved large numbers of lives.

That's why it can't be a Good act, even though Kubota was Evil: because he/she did it for the wrong reason.

Good intentions do not make good deeds. And bad intentions do not make a good result bad.

He/she executed a man because the alternative was mildly inconvenient to him/her.

Kubota's efforts could have killed V just a few minutes ago. And his earlier actions were also a good deal more than mildly inconvenient.

Kill the bad guy, get rid of the incriminating proofs, move on to next subject.

V did not use Gust of Wind to get rid of evidence. It's a standard trick to make Disintegrate more permanent. That can be reversed with a 7th level Ressurection. After that gust, you need the 9th level True Ressurection [or a host of minions gathering all the dust that is now scattered over the sea and is getting more spread by the moment.]
Kubota might have had Ressurection available, but it's unlikely he has the
9th level spell around.

I'd like to see David Argall argue that V's still Good now.

Not hard at all really.

Now I would judge it was better that Kubota stand trial, but this is an outsider’s view, and is certainly a rebuttable view. So let us consider the “sin”.

Kubota was vocally guilty of several crimes, and clearly guilty of a great many more that had killed a number of people. He was boastful of his ability to win the court case, and presented enough evidence to make that boast creditable. So we can reasonably conclude that V saved a substantial number of lives even before we consider the problem of saving the world. V’s deed is thus default a good deed.

[see]

Some who live deserve death and some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

Sure. V can cast prismatic spray, so V is at least sufficient level to cast limited wish, which can duplicate reincarnate, bringing the deserving dead back to life.

(V can't use it to duplicate raise dead because conjuration is a prohibited school, but a generalist of V's level could.)

(And, of course, in this case, since the disintegrated remains have been Gust-of-Winded, the only way to reverse it is a true resurrection. But as a general rule, sure, V does have the power to restore life to the dead.)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I can't be the only one who thinks Vaarsuvius executing a helpless man and then destroying the evidence is not a good thing.

I mean, yeah, it ended the problem of Kubota, but I think the problem of Vaarsuvius is just beginning.

Agreed. It's very Belkar-esque behavior. The motivation is different of course.
Can we PLEASE resume gaining major XP

[PaladinFreak]

Ok, that was a great solution.

Leave it to V to find the most expediant way of dealing with the situation.

[mihai]

... V shortening the path of plot: priceless.

Also what a style, simply removing the wordy Kubota from existence, like a surgeon with his scalpel, instead of letting him get his dramatic end. That's the worst punishment one could think of.

But still: disturbing. Where is V heading now?

[Archangel Yuki]

Anticlimactic solution, thy name is Rich Burlew.

Quoted for Truth.

[Sagus]

I'd love to see Kubota in his afterlife. I bet he still don't know what hit him :P

[LuisDantas]

Not to mention, would YOU want to try to arrest a wizard who turns thirty-foot tall demons to stone and disintegrates mere nobles with a single word?

If you were Hinjo, yes you would. He attempted to stop Xykon, after all.

[sihnfahl]

How can he justify DOING that? Expedience?!?!!!!

Practicality.

With Kubota's charisma, leadership and influencing abilities, he could have escaped justice. He also could have made people 'change their decisions' with subtle pressure. Then they'd be back at square one with Kubota again.

Far more practical to just execute him and be done with it. A little 'hide the evidence' and 'convince witnesses not to talk'...

Oh, and while Elan is Good, he's Chaotic. V will have him justifying the means in no time if Elan presses the matter.

[Prophaniti]

I'm sure it's been said before, but when I read the strip, I felt like shouting "About F#@$@ Time!" I would have killed him when he surrendered on the rowboat. Smug bastard. But then, I'm Chaotic Neutral, so...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

But V got rid of all the evidence and Elan is the only other witness (I think), so who's going to know?

More to the point, if you were Elan, would you testify against V now?

[Kish]

I saw that too. I reread the prophecy and it says the right four words to the right being at the right time, so by a stretch...Maaaybe.

I guessed, "Someone on the boards will have posted that 'Disintegrate Gust of Wind' is the four words."

It's as reliable as the sun, any time Vaarsuvius says four words, from the second the prophecy was made, whether those four words bear any resemblance to the rest of the prophecy or not.

[teratorn]

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I have a better option for V get Durkon, and tell Kubota, "your going to let Durkon use his magic to turn you something-of-your-choice, or I'll kill you." What he did was evil. Two really the problem is solved? All Kubota did was send Ninja and samuri to fight, and his heir could do the same. Or my personal favorite clone . And I do belive that Quar was the one who sent the monsters at everyone, and that while Kubota approved of it he wasn't who actually did it.

Since you're not proposing any future course of action for the strip, no need to use spoilers.

I understand there were other options, but as I said, according to AC law (or at least Therkla's perception of it) Kubota would be hanged. And he would be as helpless as he was here. The punishment was according to the law of the land, the way it was applied wasn't. I was just arguing against people who claim the action was necessarily evil -- it could fall under true neutral.

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V can always claim the destiny of all creation was more important than due process. Now, Hinjo and Elan may not agree, but Roy would. Hinjo's reaction is a big problem.

I understand some people won't be convinced, I'm just trying to show it isn't simply black and white, it depends on how you define your goodness and lawfulness (in DnD terms, please no real life here).

[synnerman]

Yay, V!!!!!

I hate when monologuing, snide villains get away with vast quantities of murder. From that crap he pulled during the defense of Azure city, through the ambushes, sedition and all the other crap, Kubota deserved exactly what he god.

Now it's time to save the bloody world.

[Commander Hayes]

A very good strip, but just something I couldn't help but notice: V was directly behind Elan. That means that when he landed on the boat, he would've been directly in Kubota's line of sight, and would've been spotted even if Kubota was looking at Elan and not paying that much attention. Surely he would've noticed an elf wizard in reddish robes with purple hair standing more or less in front of him and charging up a Disintegrate spell. Just makes me wonder why there was no indication in the comic of Kubota noticing anyone there, since logically I can't help but think Kubota should've seen V coming.

[Flying Platypus]

If I had a list of favorite strips from OotS this one would be on top!
Also, in frame 7 you still see his mustache in the silloet.

[Corrupted One]

Well I officially love V in a non-plutonic way. Gender be damned!

[SPoD]

A very good strip, but just something I couldn't help but notice: V was directly behind Elan. That means that when he landed on the boat, he would've been directly in Kubota's line of sight, and would've been spotted even if Kubota was looking at Elan and not paying that much attention.

Kubota has his eyes closed in Panel 6. Presumably, this is when V arrived.

Which brings up the possibility that V did not even hear Kubota's long speech, he/she just heard an obvious bad guy say that his trial would eat up "weeks" and then smoked him.