OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[silvadel]

In #20 Belkar said "In the future remind me to wait until late afternoon before insulting Vaarsuvius"

I don't think there is a proper time anymore.

[Jade Falcon]

desperate times call for drastic measures

[SmartAlec]

Now I would judge it was better that Kubota stand trial, but this is an outsider’s view, and is certainly a rebuttable view. So let us consider the “sin”.

Let's not, because it's not Kubota's actions or future actions that are important. After all, one could simply wait to see how the trial went, and if Kubota walks, THEN kill him. V has the power to kill Kubota - kill anyone in the fleet, quite possibly - at any time, it seems. But killing him while he's helpless and in custody? Certainly not ethical, and certainly not moral, either. There's no way out of that.

[Bluelantern]

I think V just voiced an underlying current of opinion in the community.

Also, loved Elan's face of pure shock/horror.

QFT thought I wans't all that annoyed I do prefer that they just... go kill the damn snarl thing. I mean, how many other side-quest-y problems they have to solve:

a) The Linear Guild (because it WILL show again)
b) The Whole Harley & Cia problem on Greysky
c) Roy Ressurection, agravated with the "b" situation
d) And of the Azure City thing (or lack of azure city)

[sihnfahl]

Certainly not ethical, and certainly not moral, either. There's no way out of that.

Depends on your ethical and moral code, now, doesn't it?

[elonin]

V has certainly never been accused of being lawful. However, it appears that he is shifting toward evil.

[Baywolfe]

Depends on your ethical and moral code, now, doesn't it?

Absolutely! The "cop out" alignment is Chaotic Neutral. You can do anything and find any reason to justify it as long as you don't do the same thing too many times in a row.

V's days are numbered anyway. I don't think s/he survives much longer. (In game time not real time)

[Finwe]

Even if V's only motivation was expedience, it was still a good act (a chaotic act, but still good). When the fate of the world is literally at stake, and every second counts, you don't have time to offer due process to someone who has admitted to you their crimes, their plan to play the courts, and their intention to continue with their evil schemes, all of which impede your ability to SAVE THE ENTIRE WORLD.

[Mad Scientist]

Wow. That sure is a quick and tidy way to tie up a story line. I guess we'll just sweep all that under the rug and call it resolved.
It will be funny to see if the characters reflect back on the incident.

[Castel]

About todays comic:
Can I just say that Vaarsuvius is my favorite character from now on?

(And a big thank you to Rich Burlew for the amount of updates lately.)

[SmartAlec]

Depends on your ethical and moral code, now, doesn't it?

Actually, it depends on Mount Celestia's ethical and moral codes, and it's not hard to see this doesn't fit them.

[mikeejimbo]

OK, I think that was awesome. I was thinking "You know, it'd just be much more efficient to kill him now. Too bad Elan would never do that." Then, "Disintegrate." Something about the death seemed anti-climactic, too. He was just hit and...died.

[Finwe]

Wow. That sure is a quick and tidy way to tie up a story line. I guess we'll just sweep all that under the rug and call it resolved.
It will be funny to see if the characters reflect back on the incident.

Actually, V swept the remains out to sea rather than under a rug...

[The Wanderer]

You are jumping to conclusions here. V has much better motive than that.

I'd point out that you're jumping to conclusion about V's motives yourself, since the only thing V has said on the subject so far is "Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world", but then I remember that when the comic doesn't match the evidence in your head, you just make up the evidence you need.

By the way, if V killing an unarmed, defenseless captive, (who was not even a warrior or someone who was capable of defending himself in battle) without any warning is a good act, then why was Roy attacking Miko post fall such a bad act again that you were swearing up and down that Hinjo and the deva must have been tearing him a new one between comics, so that we convienently never saw it? You know, aside from the fact that Miko was a favorite character of yours.

David continues to remind me of a Shakespeare quote. "Faith, here's an equivocator who could swear in both the scales against either scale".

[JonahFalcon]

But V got rid of all the evidence and Elan is the only other witness (I think), so who's going to know?

V will know. Ethics are what we do when no one is around.

[JonahFalcon]

Ugh, what a dismal cop-out.

I dreaded this sort of outcome over the last few strips, and now that it's arrived, it's as drearily anticlimatic as expected.

This sort of ending doesn't only destroy a promising future plotline, it also actively taints and spoils everything leading up to it - Burlew is in effect openly conceding this entire sub-plot's ultimate irrelevance with such a perfunctory ending that directly admits the plot's incidental nature. This corrupts the memory of several dozen comics with a deflating sense of purposelessness.

A very bad call, and a very disappointing strip. :(

No. It's only a cop-out if nothing comes of it. (See: Willow the Flayer from Buffy. Her vigilante justice only led to greater trouble.)

[JonahFalcon]

The arc is OVAH!

Is it?

I remember the Futurama episode in which Leela wished she were a little more impulsive...

[lenster]

Oh wow. Now that was just badass.

Awesome strip.

[Eraniverse]

Is it evil to kill a murderous wizard with his arms tied but his mouth free and bragging about how many non-somatic spells he has prepped? Is it evil to kill a ancient tyrant, who poses no physical threat but whose armies pillage and burn across the world as he gloats how his armies will scourge your homelands?

Is it evil to kill a prisoner whose abilities are in no way bound?

Kubota's threat was never physical (Therkla might disagree but meh). Kubota had just taken lethal action against V and many others. Minions count, guys.

Chaotic Good. Albeit irritable from "sleep" deprivation.

[A Quiet Person]

I can't believe it... I almost agree with David Argall!

I would not class it as a good act, but V's disintegration of Kabuto certainly seems practical. Kabuto was more than a minor inconvenience; he summoned imps and unleashed ninja and demons on Hinjo's people. He then openly boasted about how he could easily abuse and manipulate the legal system to ensure that justice could not be done, and could in fact use it to make the situation even worse for the good guys.

After hearing that boast, killing Kabuto on the spot cannot be good, but how can trial be an ethical choice? If you believe Kabuto's very credible boast, choosing to go to trial becomes utterly naive.

What Rich Burlew seems to have done here is a OoTS version of Kurt Busiek's Kingdom Come, in which Magog executes the Joker after he has been captured. When Superman brings Magog to trial, he is disgusted when Magog's position receives acceptance and the justice system lets him go.

But Magog's points are not easily refuted - he's no straw man: the Joker killed dozens, and he has killed dozens in the past. Every time he is captured, he escapes again and again, and kills again and again. How many times can this happen before people realise that the idealised idea of the Joker's imprisonment and possible rehabilitation was not worth as much as the lives of all the people whom he was killing, time and time again. Magog killed the Joker not out of evil, but out of frustration, and in the wake of a monstrous massacre that the Joker had engineered.

Given the power and resources that Kabuto had, and the scale of the murders that he had in mind, a very similar argument can be made regarding V's decision-making. So I would not be so quick to write V off as evil; while not good, her utter frustration with the situation is understandable.

[Lupy]

V IS #1!!! <--- For the elf who killed the only villains in the plotline.

[JonahFalcon]

Is it evil to kill a murderous wizard with his arms tied but his mouth free and bragging about how many non-somatic spells he has prepped?

Check out Identity Crisis, and get back to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Crisis_(comics)

[gamerboy6000]

Ha! I knew Kubota had it coming.

[JonahFalcon]

I can't believe it... I almost agree with David Argall!

I would not class it as a good act, but V's disintegration of Kabuto certainly seems practical. Kabuto was more than a minor inconvenience; he summoned imps and unleashed ninja and demons on Hinjo's people. He then openly boasted about how he could easily abuse and manipulate the legal system to ensure that justice could not be done, and could in fact use it to make the situation even worse for the good guys.

After hearing that boast, killing Kabuto on the spot cannot be good, but how can trial be an ethical choice? If you believe Kabuto's very credible boast, choosing to go to trial becomes utterly naive.

What Rich Burlew seems to have done here is a OoTS version of Kurt Busiek's Kingdom Come, in which Magog executes the Joker after he has been captured. When Superman brings Magog to trial, he is disgusted when Magog's position receives acceptance and the justice system lets him go.

But Magog's points are not easily refuted - he's no straw man: the Joker killed dozens, and he has killed dozens in the past. Every time he is captured, he escapes again and again, and kills again and again. How many times can this happen before people realise that the idealised idea of the Joker's imprisonment and possible rehabilitation was not worth as much as the lives of all the people whom he was killing, time and time again. Magog killed the Joker not out of evil, but out of frustration, and in the wake of a monstrous massacre that the Joker had engineered.

Given the power and resources that Kabuto had, and the scale of the murders that he had in mind, a very similar argument can be made regarding V's decision-making. So I would not be so quick to write V off as evil; while not good, her utter frustration with the situation is understandable.

Lois Lane gave her life so that the Joker be captured. She revealed herself so the Joker wouldn't get away. Magog killing him made her sacrifice a waste. Read the novelization by Maggin. Oh, and Magog's zeal for justice atomized Kansas.

Oh, and again, Elan is Lawful Good. What is V going to do to make sure he doesn't talk? Hm?

There's the quick and easy way, which always gets people in trouble.

[JonahFalcon]

There's an old saying: two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

[wyattbatman]

Question: If V has been getting as little sleep as has been implied, then how is (s)he been preparing new spells?

Sleep isn't required for Wizards, only meditation while reading their spellbook, as of v3.5. I haven't kept up on v4.0 to know if there was a change

[JonahFalcon]

I just wonder if V just caused the deaths of more innocent people.

[Emanick]

8 pages already? Wow, important comic. I'm very glad Kubota didn't live to see comic #600, though - at least now we know nothing really important will happen involving him in that.

It would be funny if Vaarsuvius's ancient elven god of secrets drained away her/his wizardry next comic, but that would be ridiculous and it won't happen. Oh well.

I just wish that now that Kubota's dead, the mass of people spelling his name "Kubuto" or "Kabuto" or "Kabota" (I've seen all three) would stop spelling it that way. Oh well, I guess we can't have everything.

Edit: Jonah, Elan is Chaotic Good.

[ss49]

(8 pagers after, but...)
WORD.

[Ceric]

O



M



G!!!!!!

My reaction exactly. WIN!

Don't know about Lawful-Chaotic, but to me this was a clearly Evil act. Evil is defined in DnD essentially as killing people, and, well, s/he did.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.

Emphasis mine. Aside from the actual killing by V, Kubota's death this way was much more convenient than a full trial would have been and saved lots of time, effort, and whatever else. Hence, evil.

Also, I agree with the people who say these are V's four words.