Your thoughts on Paizo's Beta

[Akisa]

I was wondering what are your thoughts on Paizo's beta 3.5 PHB. It still needs tweaking mainly that they took nerfing some stuff too much, mainly wildshape and divine power.

[Kaihaku]

Could you elaborate on the divine power?

I'm enjoying it. There's only been one change I've discovered that I really disliked, that was Intimidate, but I'm hoping that the removal of Fear bonuses and immunity was due to publishing pressures and can be replaced. Most of the class changes are excellent in my opinion and I'm glad that they decided to rework the Barbarian Rage model they had originally fielded. The removal of experience costs is a change that I hadn't thought of but which is, honestly, extremely nice.

[Akisa]

Divine power provides +1 luck bonus to hit and damage, strength checks and extra attack with making full round attack. I would be fine if they changed luck bonus to something else.

[turkishproverb]

They did next to nothing to Druids or the caster classes to actually balance them. They needed to nix natural spell entirely for starters.

[Beleriphon]

They did next to nothing to Druids or the caster classes to actually balance them. They needed to nix natural spell entirely for starters.

The major complaint is that Paizo, while presenting a good idea, doesn't really understand the underlying math behind the game. They know things are unbalanced, but don't understand what those things are.

[Kurald Galain]

They made a lot of changes simply for the sake of change.

[turkishproverb]

They made a lot of changes simply for the sake of change.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. I think they're mostly trying to fix problems they don't know what are.

[Oslecamo]

No, they're following K's philosophy.

Druids still aren't as strong as cheesed Planar sheperds. They're ok!

Wizards aren't as strong as cheesed Incantrixes+Initiate of the 7 veil. They're ok!

[Kaihaku]

About a month ago I started a topic almost exactly along these lines and received very similar responses. Still, I started a playtest and have been working through the system. Overall, I've been impressed by how subtle the changes are.

They did next to nothing to Druids or the caster classes to actually balance them. They needed to nix natural spell entirely for starters.

My opinion is...

Wizards and Sorcerers weren't broken, their spells were. Paizo is revising the spells.

Natural Spell isn't broken until you can turn into a dinosaur with 6 natural attacks that ooze super poison. Note also that while Druids can still cast Personal spells on their animal companion, they cannot cast spells on themselves and their animal companion. I've never been in a game where the Druid being able to cast spells as a hawk, bear, or even elemental was overpowering. Dinosaurs buffing themselves and their dinosaur animal companions are a different story.

I was hesitant at first but I think that the Pathfinder polymorph changes are a good approach. It removes a lot of the options but makes things very clear.

[Spiryt]

It's actually pretty funny to me that they basically copied and pasted the SRD, did quite a lot of homebrew and are calling int New Game.

But anyway, I really like what they did with Barbarian. I always was under impression that rage (and Barb in general) needs something actually usable for more purposes thatn "Rarrghh, bonuses" some time ago, and some class abilities that actually leave choice.
Changes to soe other classes are also nice. Just ignore the caster changes and it should be allright.

New feats are also nice, although power attack modification is bad. They obviously decided to balance THF with other styles by nerfing it. And it's a bad way.

Changes in the skill section I don't like.

Overally, I'm going to use Patfinder, but rather selectively.

[Uin]

They've decided to hit spellcasters via changing their spells. If we had a compiled list of spell changes we'd get a better idea of how they've been changed.

Good things though:
Art has come on leaps and bounds since PHB 3.5e
Condensed skill list, I don't agree with every choice but it is largely an improvement
Dead levels are mostly gone

[turkishproverb]

I'm sorry, I just don't consider changing the spell list a viable solution for anything that is going to get splatbooks, or be used with wizards old material/3rd party stuff. Still, maybe you're right and it'll work out.

Not a big fan of the skill issue either, but that's a separate problem. I usually just give everyone extra skill points myself...

[Kaihaku]

I'm sorry, I just don't consider changing the spell list a viable solution for anything that is going to get splatbooks, or be used with wizards old material/3rd party stuff.

I agree with that. I suspect that while Paizo claims that Pathfinder is meant to be compatible it's really going to be more like using old 3.0 books with 3.5...which you can do but it's all that nice and it unbalances things.

[Kurald Galain]

Wizards and Sorcerers weren't broken, their spells were. Paizo is revising the spells.

So they claim. Perhaps you could give us some concrete example? The biggest flaw of pathfinder is probably that players won't know exactly which spells (and feats, etc) have changed from their identically-named counterparts in the PHB, so expect people to use the wrong wordings. A lot.

Also, the barbarian's new rage mechanic is really klunky and example of bad design.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'm sorry, I just don't consider changing the spell list a viable solution for anything that is going to get splatbooks, or be used with wizards old material/3rd party stuff. Still, maybe you're right and it'll work out.

But the only other option is a complete shift in paradigm, putting everyone under the same mechanic, like 4E does, and the whole point of Pathfinder, obviously, is to not make such radical changes to the fundamental mechanics, and to be the "alternative to 4E".

I'm not convinced it's possible to really balance things within the d20 framework. Even, say, Conan d20 is pretty completely unbalanced between sorcerer-scholars and everyone else; the scholars get spells that rip your heart out of your chest or inflict a plague on an entire city, and everyone else gets to hit things with a sword (although in more interesting ways than in 3.X). The only reason it works is because there's less of an expectation of balance.

[Kaihaku]

So they claim. Perhaps you could give us some concrete example?

So they claim? What? Is this some big conspiracy? I think anyone who downloaded the Beta Book can easily see that, yes, spells have been changed. I haven't poured over every single spell entry but I, personally, can see some significant changes.

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Dungeons and Dragons 3.5

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Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

Polymorph

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Material Component: An empty cocoon.

Baleful Polymorph

Transmutation
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text Spell Resistance: Yes

You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

*

The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
*

If the target has the shapechanger subtype, it retains that subtype.
*

The target retains its own hit points.
*

The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
*

The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).

With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form.

If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or an airborne target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its ability to understand language, as well as all other memories of its previous form, and its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action (which ends the spell’s effect).

Polymorph Any Object

Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level Duration: See text Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.
Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
1 Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.

Duration
Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.

Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

Arcane Material Component: Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke.

Shapechange

Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

Pathfinder

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Alter Self
School transmutation (polymorph); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to
assume)
range personal
Target you
duration 1 min/level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has
any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength.

Polymorph
School transmutation (polymorph); Level wizard/sorcerer 5
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you choose)
range touch
Target living creature touched
duration 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell resistance yes (harmless)
This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid
or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling
creatures. If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of
an animal or magical beast, it functions as beast shape II. If the form is
that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I. If the form
is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. The subject may
choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends
the spell for that subject alone.

Baleful Polymorph
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S
range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
duration permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial, see text; Spell
resistance: yes
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Polymorph, Greater
School transmutation (polymorph); Level wizard/sorcerer 7
This spell functions as polymorph except that it allows the creature
to take on the form of a dragon or plant creature. If you use this
spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal or
magical beast, it functions as beast shape IV. If the form is that
of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body III. If the
form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. If the
form is that of a plant, the spell functions as plant shape II. If the
form is that of a dragon, the spell functions as form of the dragon I.
The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round
action; doing so ends the spell.

Polymorph Any Object (This is in the "web enhancement' and I suspect will get more attention later.)
school transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 8
casting time 1 standard action
components V, S, M/DF (mercury, gum arabic, and smoke)
effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
target one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100
cu. ft./level
Duration see text
Spell Resistance yes (object)
This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.

Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
1 Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.
Duration Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew

If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), polymorph any object grants a score of
5 to such scores.
Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.
A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

Shapechange
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 9, wizard/sorcerer 9
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, F (jade circlet worth 1,500 gp)
range personal
Target you
duration 10 min/level (D)
This spell allows you to take the form of a wide variety of creatures. This
spell can function as alter self, beast form IV, elemental body IV, form of
the dragon III, giant form II, and plant shape III depending on what form
you take. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.

I'm only going to list one spell from each chain but there are also specific polymorph spells, as referenced above, for Dragons, Giants, etc.

Beast Shape III
School transmutation (polymorph); Level wizard/sorcerer 5
This spell functions as beast shape II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type.
This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, improved grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.
Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Huge animal: If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength, a –4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
Small magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Small magical beast, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Medium magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Medium magical beast, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Giant Form I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to
assume)
range personal
Target you
duration 1 min/level (D)
When you cast this spell you can assume the form of any Large creature of the giant type. You gain the following abilities: a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, low-light vision, and a +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, rend (2d6 damage), regeneration 5, rock catching, and rock throwing (range 60 feet, 2d6 damage). If the creature has immunity or resistance to any elements, you gain resistance 20 to those elements. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.

Elemental Body III
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6
This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental.
The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental you change into. You are also immune to critical hits and sneak attacks while in elemental form.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength, +4 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +6 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Form of the Dragon I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (a scale of the dragon type you plan to assume)
range personal
Target you
duration 1 min/level (D)
Save see below; Sr no
When you cast this spell you assume the form of a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain the following abilities: a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 feet, a breath weapon, and resistance to one element. You also gain one bite (1d8), two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4). Your breath weapon and resistance depend on the type of dragon that you transform into. You can only use the breath weapon once per casting of this spell. All breath weapons deal 6d8 points of damage and allow a Reflex save for half damage. In addition, some of the dragon types grant additional abilities as noted below.
Black dragon: 60-foot line of acid, resist acid 20, swim 60 feet
Blue dragon: 60-foot line of electricity, resist electricity 20, burrow 20
feet
Green dragon: 30-foot cone of acid, resist acid 20, swim 40 feet
Red dragon: 30-foot cone of fire, resist fire 30, vulnerability to cold
White dragon: 30-foot cone of cold, resist cold 20, swim 60 feet,
vulnerability to fire
Brass dragon: 60-foot line of fire, resist fire 20, burrow 30 feet,
vulnerability to cold
Bronze dragon: 60-foot line of electricity, resist electricity 20, swim
60 feet
Copper dragon: 60-foot line of acid, resist acid 20, spider climb (always
active)
Gold dragon: 30-foot cone of fire, resist fire 20, swim 60 feet
Silver dragon: 30-foot cone of cold, resist cold 30, vulnerability to fire

Plant Shape I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level wizard/sorcerer 5
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
range personal
Target you
duration 1 min/level (D)
When you cast this spell you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the plant type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, constrict, improved grab, poison, and shriek. If the form you assume does not possess the ability to move, your speed is reduced to 5 feet and you lose all other forms of movement. If the creature has vulnerability to one element, you gain that vulnerability.
Small plant: If the form you take is that of a Small plant, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution and a +2 natural armor bonus.
Medium plant: If the form you take is that of a Medium plant, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +2 natural armor bonus.

Another example that was pointed out in this very thread.

Dungeons and Dragons 3.5

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Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

Pathfinder

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Divine Power
School evocation; Level cleric 4
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, DF
range personal
Target you
duration 1 round/level
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skill checks for every three caster levels you have (maximum +6). You also gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. Whenever you make a full-attack action, you can make on additional attack at your full base attack bonus, plus any appropriate modifiers. This additional attack is not cumulative with similar effects, such as haste or weapons with the speed special ability.

The information is downloadable for free online, there's no reason to doubt their "claims" as you can, easily, check for yourself. Despite any other mistakes, the development of Pathfinder has been extremely open to the broader community. Actually, it's the most open development project I've ever seen a business run.

The biggest flaw of pathfinder is probably that players won't know exactly which spells (and feats, etc) have changed from their identically-named counterparts in the PHB, so expect people to use the wrong wordings. A lot.

That's true. I've made assumptions a lot myself, more with things like skills and game mechanics than spells though. It's added to by the fact that most of the changes are very subtle and don't stand out.

Also, the barbarian's new rage mechanic is really klunky and example of bad design.

As I mentioned previously, they just introduced a new model as part of the Beta test to replace that one. I agree that it was klunky and I appreciate the new more streamlined model, but I wouldn't call the original design terrible or unplayable.

I'm sick of playing in campaign after campaign where each Dungeon Master uses a different set of houserules to fix the flaws in the system, I'd prefer just learn one set of system fixing changes and Pathfinder is shaping up to meet that need. Then, houserules can focus on setting specifics.

Pathfinder takes time and effort to learn, just like any system upgrade. I don't recall Wizards of the Coast releasing a list of changes from 3.0 to 3.5.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't recall Wizards of the Coast releasing a list of changes from 3.0 to 3.5.

How about this?

[Kaihaku]

How about this?

First I've seen it, which would be why I didn't recall it. That would have been handy way back when. Perhaps Paizo will release one once the development process is actually complete?

Another point...

Fax Celestis has some good stuff. Frank K has some good stuff. Lots of homebrewers have some good stuff. They aren't working together. They aren't creating a single coherent system fix. Pazio is and it has resources lone homebrewers don't. I think only a full fledged Open Source-style update could really compete with Pathfinder at this point and I don't see that happening because no two homebrewers seem to be able to compromise on what the changes should be. I might not agree with every Pathfinder change but none of them strike me as terrible and they come with a certain authority that a homebrewed change just doesn't.

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget they nerfed Glitterdust to save every round for free (unlike Hold person where it takes an action to save) to remove effect.

[Kaihaku]

That seems backwards... I'd expect Hold Person to be free to resist and Glitter Dust to be an action to, well, you know clean out your eyes.

Dungeons and Dragons 3.5

Spoiler

Show

Glitterdust
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: Creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (blinding only) Spell Resistance: No

A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades.

Any creature covered by the dust takes a –40 penalty on Hide checks.

Material Component: Ground mica.

Pathfinder

Glitterdust
School conjuration (creation); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, M (ground mica)
range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread duration 1 round/level
Save Will negates (blinding only); Sr no
A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect.
Any creature covered by the dust takes a –40 penalty on Stealth checks.

That seems more of a mistake than intentional. I'll mention it when they get to the stage of discussing spells in the beta test.

Dungeons and Dragons 3.5

Spoiler

Show

Hold Person

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

Pathfinder

Hold Person
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric
2, sorcerer/wizard 3
casting Time 1 standard action
components V, S, F/DF (a small, straight piece of iron)
range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one humanoid creature
duration 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell resistance yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and
breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each
round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to
end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.

A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

Good comparison with Hold Person, it's about equivalent to Glitterdust in regards to power and has always required an action to save.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I never noticed that. That's hilarious - you can't take any actions, but have to take a full action to shake it off... so you can't.

[Jack Zander]

I never noticed that. That's hilarious - you can't take any actions, but have to take a full action to shake it off... so you can't.

Hmm... I smell cheese. I'll have to pull this on my DM and see what he says.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmm... I smell cheese. I'll have to pull this on my DM and see what he says.

If he's literate, he'll laugh at you. The spell doesn't say you have to take an action in order to get a save; it says you may. It specifically allows that action.

[Starbuck_II]

If he's literate, he'll laugh at you. The spell doesn't say you have to take an action in order to get a save; it says you may. It specifically allows that action.

If he is illiterate, how did he even DM a game... luck?

[Kaihaku]

If he is illiterate, how did he even DM a game... luck?

He words things in such a way as to trigger a rant from the nearby rules lawyer who thus acts as a verbal DMG.

[Renegade Paladin]

If he is illiterate, how did he even DM a game... luck?

He didn't; that's the point. I'm saying his DM is going to laugh at him.

[Eldariel]

They broke Freedom of Movement. It automatically makes you win any combat maneuver checks. That includes checks you initiate. So get FoM, Grapple/Trip/whatever anything and automatically win. Then profit!

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

They broke Freedom of Movement. It automatically makes you win any combat maneuver checks. That includes checks you initiate. So get FoM, Grapple/Trip/whatever anything and automatically win. Then profit!

Well, it is in a BETA still. There are a lot of things that need to be cleared up; like that, and how they are wording Sneak Attack. Basically, you can sneak attack anything with a discernible structure. It is too wide open for the ability.

For the most part, I like the changes. Power attack makes sense now, as does Combat Expertise. Power attack previously made no sense.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Thing is... a Sorc or a Rogue could take that at L1, and not get anything from it until level 2. WTF?! I can understand prerequisites, but that is just BAD. They did reduce the bonus to damage to your STR modifier, but this in turn removes the horrifying Frenzied Berserker cheese from the game (I used to love that class, but, nah... it's just hugely broken).

I also like how they did skills. If you multiclass, you add the new list of skills to the one you already have. You do not lose skills that you had before.

[Fax Celestis]

Fax Celestis has some good stuff. [...] They aren't working together. They aren't creating a single coherent system fix.

I'm not doing all this How-It-Should-Be stuff (or most of my homebrewing) for kicks and giggles, y'know. Secretly, I'm working on this idea of "3.5 Rebirth". I'm not very satisfied with 4e--good ideas as a whole, but some bad implementations that drive me up a wall--and honestly I'd rather just fix the existing 3.5e system.

Plus, you know, OGL.

[TheThan]

I'm not doing all this How-It-Should-Be stuff (or most of my homebrewing) for kicks and giggles, y'know. Secretly, I'm working on this idea of "3.5 Rebirth". I'm not very satisfied with 4e--good ideas as a whole, but some bad implementations that drive me up a wall--and honestly I'd rather just fix the existing 3.5e system.

Plus, you know, OGL.

Yep, I agree. there are reasons why we do the things we do.