Theological justification

[random11]

I have a problem with a home-brew magic system (not that it matters, but in GURPS).

The magic is given to (sort of) clerics of a certain religion, and grants them the ability to use the power from the gods, as long as their rank is high enough for that type of spell and that their action is to support the will of the gods.
The thing is, that the gods no longer walk the earth, and the magic is actually controlled by will and faith alone, meaning that basically the spell will work if the caster is convinced it is supposed to work...

A bit of background before the question: The country that has this magic had a line of kings that were supported by the religion. The last two kings made very big mistakes (including two useless wars) that caused the kingdom to be on the brink of anarchy. Many died in the wars, the economy was damaged, bandits were everywhere etc.
When the last king died in one of the wars, he left only a child that was too young to become the king (around 3 years old). The general replaced the line of kings and started to fix all the damage.
Several years later, it was known that the general has no intention of ever giving the throne to the child, and a group of rebels kidnapped the young prince to save him, intending to return him to the throne when it is possible (no, I don't intend a PC to be that child).

The country is currently divided.
Some believe that the former line of kings should be replaced by the general who actually managed to restore order. They also say that the loss of the throne is the punishment for the previous kings' crimes.
Others believe that despite everything, the line cannot be replaced, and that the gods picked that line for a reason that haven't changed.

Here is the fun part: Because both sides believe in their cause, both sides have clerics that can use magic given from the same gods.
So the question is, using theological justifications, how can both sides explain the fact that the same gods actively help both sides in the war?

[Iku Rex]

So the question is, using theological justifications, how can both sides explain the fact that the same gods actively help both sides in the war?

"A devil does it".

Short, simple, and well tested in the real world.

[sonofzeal]

Easy - the god in question is interested in things other than the current conflict. A god of healing would still provide healing powers to anyone who needs it; a god of the harvest would help crops on both sides because the crop yield is more important to him than the petty succession fights. A benevolent and involved deity might work to end the war, but do it via clerics in important positions inside both sides.

[random11]

"A devil does it".

Short, simple, and well tested in the real world.

There is no devil or anti-gods in this mythology, but there is a similar way I used before, in a way.
Sorcery is strictly forbidden in this country, and to explain how the head priest supported the wars, it was claimed that he used sorcery and disguised it as divine magic.

I guess it can be reused...

[random11]

Easy - the god in question is interested in things other than the current conflict. A god of healing would still provide healing powers to anyone who needs it; a god of the harvest would help crops on both sides because the crop yield is more important to him than the petty succession fights. A benevolent and involved deity might work to end the war, but do it via clerics in important positions inside both sides.

The magic also includes direct offensive magic, but according to the rules of that magic, it can only work if the casters believe the gods are with them.
That means they have to believe the gods either support the true line or want to cut it for the past sins, so the "petty succession fights" reasoning can't be used.

I can make a small adjustment that will allow only the use of certain spells in this internal war, but I prefer not to if there is a better excuse.

[sonofzeal]

The magic also includes direct offensive magic, but according to the rules of that magic, it can only work if the casters believe the gods are with them.
That means they have to believe the gods either support the true line or want to cut it for the past sins, so the "petty succession fights" reasoning can't be used.

I can make a small adjustment that will allow only the use of certain spells in this internal war, but I prefer not to if there is a better excuse.

Some information on the nature of the deity in question is in order, I think.

One other option is for the deity to be a strong proponent of "Free Will" and self-determination of the people and empire in question. If they chose to use that power against themselves, then they are responsible and will bear the consequences of that. Such a god could either be callous, grieving for the sorry state of his followers, or hopeful that they will realize their errors. His (or her) end goal could be to let them destroy themselves, or to see them grow as individuals and as a society and eventually reach some state of transcendance.

[Storm Bringer]

simple: Schism

the Highest preist of the faith formally declares that He/She, as the highest priest/priestess of the God, is most in tune with the Gods thought, and that He/She, and thierfore God, supports the General, and thierfore so should all the church and the faithful.

However, a senoir priest in the clergy dissents, and flees to join the rebels. For he has recived a vision form the God, saying that the line of king must be restored, and the chruch has strayed form her will! he begins to gather followers who form the core of his spellcasters.......

Whether this priestactually has seen a vision or not is moot: what matters is that the preist believes he as the devine will with them.

With that conifdence, he can still use spells, which is a powerful tool to convince others that he is right ("if i were acting agianst our gods wishes, why would she let me keep my powers?")

the spellcasting population spilts between these two respected personages. Those that follow the high priest have no trouble, as they are carrying on as alway (their confidence is not shaken). Of those that join the rebels, some loose their abilities (Due to lack of conifdence), but those who are strongest in thier faith in the rebel cause can still cast perfectly well (they have the will and belief to pull it off). thus, they belive that thier cause it right, for why else would our God let us continue casting.

both sides explain away the others ability to cast by a thousand rumours: that they made pacts with evil deamons, that a rival god form another (hated) country is providing them with power, that they have found a sceret magical artifact........... Wether anything like this actaully exsist is moot. People will still believe in deamons and such regardless of wether they exsisted. I mean, Real life people never saw deamons, but they believed in them.

and, just for fun, a third group forms attempting to unifiy the church.......

[Yahzi]

So the question is, using theological justifications, how can both sides explain the fact that the same gods actively help both sides in the war?

The same way the North and the South did in the American Civil War, or the way the Catholics and the Protestants did it for the last six hundred years. Every time a spell works for you, you praise the god; every time a spell works against you, you ignore it.

[Hawriel]

exactly yahzi.

[ghost_warlock]

Here is the fun part: Because both sides believe in their cause, both sides have clerics that can use magic given from the same gods.
So the question is, using theological justifications, how can both sides explain the fact that the same gods actively help both sides in the war?

This sort of thing results in cognitive dissonace. Note that, even in a fantasy setting, rationalization and confirmation bias will probably be the way people on either side will justify their ideology.

The same way the North and the South did in the American Civil War, or the way the Catholics and the Protestants did it for the last six hundred years. Every time a spell works for you, you praise the god; every time a spell works against you, you ignore it.

Yeah, what Yahzi said.

[Lemur]

You don't really need a complicated explanation: both sides assume that their god is on their side, and don't really put too much thought into why the other side seems to be using the same kind of magic. It's not like people of supposedly the same religion never fought each other in the real world before, with each one convinced that their god was aiding them exclusively.

The majority doesn't really need to justify things, while the people who point out discrepancies (like about how the other side seems to be drawing power from the same god) will be ignored since their points go against the doctrine of hostility that everyone else is caught up in.

Of course, this interpretation may be too realistic to be believable in a fantasy world.

[xPANCAKEx]

"the gods work in mysterious ways" - old, cliche but tested
"god is testing our faith" - tried and tested
"their magic is the work of the anti-god. they are evil. Stop asking questions and smite them before they can corrupt you" - also tried and tested (as per the original response"

[Starbuck_II]

The same way the North and the South did in the American Civil War, or the way the Catholics and the Protestants did it for the last six hundred years. Every time a spell works for you, you praise the god; every time a spell works against you, you ignore it.

Wait, there were spells cast in the Civil War? Why was I not informed we hired mages?

[Gavin Sage]

An alternate explanation from ones provided:

"The gods allow there mortal followers to choose of how they use their divine grants, and do not actually care about political concerns the way we do. Personal ethics over direct divine theocracy."

[Yahzi]

Wait, there were spells cast in the Civil War? Why was I not informed we hired mages?

Mages have to actually perform spells before people will hire them. Unlike priests, who can get by on claims of past performance.

[xPANCAKEx]

god knows who is right - but through war you prove your worthiness

[Telonius]

Wait, there were spells cast in the Civil War? Why was I not informed we hired mages?

You were reading the wrong history books. And don't tell me they left out a bit about the unit that led a rebellion of Russians and Chinese against the man-eating aliens!

[Yuki Akuma]

Just because there are no devils or evil gods in the setting doesn't mean that the puny mortals won't think some sort of devil or evil god is aiding their enemies.

[valadil]

What if the gods were divided too? Some prefer the original king some prefer the new general.

I really like what you've come up so far though. Please let us know which option you choose and how it works out!

[vegetalss4]

i think you should say that both sides claims that the other is using sorcery and disgusing it as divine magic.

[MartinHarper]

It is always darkest before the dawn. The gods are helping both sides to increase the duration and significance of the war. Then, when the final battle is at hand, the gods will abandon the other side, allowing everyone to see that their position is morally and theologically repugnant. The crushing triumph of our side will reaffirm the divine right of kings, and allow everyone to be united in a new era of harmony and prosperity across the world.

[Jayabalard]

So the question is, using theological justifications, how can both sides explain the fact that the same gods actively help both sides in the war?

If I follow correctly, there's a schism in the church.... each side would have a claim that the other side is not being powered by the Gods, but is instead getting their power from demons and devils or just normal everyday sorcery instead of the true gods.

Since you're using GURPS, you have several options about how this really works; a couple of them:

1. Everyone is actually a sorcerer using magery to power their spells but they believe that power is a gift from their god. That explains how both sides get spells "from the true gods"
2. One side is really using some sort of divine based magic, and the other is using infernal or arcane based magic. The high priest(s) may know the truth, but the underpreists are deluded.