OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

[JonahFalcon]

I thought it was a save-or-die effect... *reads rulebook* ah, I was justly proved wrong.

What about Power Word: Kill?

[esmerelder]

Um, V isn't pissed at Elan for possibly cheating on Haley in #597. Read again. It's more like "what-e-ver". V's only mildly troubled at not getting XP for Therkla.

Hm - no, I think the 'cheating on Haley' fallacy might have something to do with it. If you check the eyebrows (nearly always a reliable guide to OOTS characters' emotions! Gotta love the Giant's art - it's so simple, and yet so evocative), V looks moderately annoyed () in panel 1, puzzled () in panel 2, speculative in panel 3, but becomes full-on ANGRY () and starts yelling in panel 5, right after Elan talks about Therkla being in love with him (ETA: which V., in hir sleep-deprivation-addled state, is hearing as 'had an affair with him'). Even Elan's comparing hir to Belkar, who V professes to strongly dislike, doesn't provoke such a violent reaction.

Conclusion: The loss of control seems to be at least partly triggered by the mention of another girl who was in love with Elan, even if it's fuelled by all the other stuff that's been going on since the Order was sundered (not to mention V's general background level of annoyance with Elan).

[synnerman]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it funny that Elan faced down one of his most powerful members by being utterly clueless?

V: I play Ultimate "Arcane Intimidation!" *chuckles behind his hand*
Elan: I play "Adorable Cluelessness!"
V: Crap!
Elan: Win!

[Belkster11]

Nope. He'd take 30d6 damage, which might not be enough to kill him outright if he were lucky. If he saved, he'd take 5d6 damage, which wouldn't knock a decently high-leveled paladin out.

But that's assuming that Redcloak's "disentigrate" is weaker than V's. I'm not a big expert on the spell (or anything D&D really. ) but I just assume that the spell damage increases due to the power of the caster.

Redcloak casted the spell at Hinjo and brought him close to death.
If V did the same thing, buh-bye Hinjo.

That is, of course, V would even CONSIDER zapping Hinjo with that kind of spell. He may not care about Hinjo, but he also doesn't want to go on Azure City's bad side.

[joela]

V: I play Ultimate "Arcane Intimidation!" *chuckles behind his hand*
Elan: I play "Adorable Cluelessness!"
V: Crap!
Elan: Win!

Exactly

[Eric]

Because Hinjo can Detect Truth, and also knows Elan is not a liar.

Also, good ≠ dumb.

Which Hinjo could have cast on Kabuto too, but didn't.

Unless Hinjo knew he could void a reading, he doesn't do that unless there's proof, rather than accusation

[Morty]

But that's assuming that Redcloak's "disentigrate" is weaker than V's. I'm not a big expert on the spell (or anything D&D really. ) but I just assume that the spell damage increases due to the power of the caster.

Redcloak casted the spell at Hinjo and brought him close to death.
If V did the same thing, buh-bye Hinjo.

That is, of course, V would even CONSIDER zapping Hinjo with that kind of spell. He may not care about Hinjo, but he also doesn't want to go on Azure City's bad side.

If Hinjo survived Redcloak's Disintegrate spell despite falling his save he's even more likely to do so if V casts that spell, as V is obviously lower level than Redcloak- probably 14, while Redcloak is at least 15, maybe 17. And I don't think V's acting rationally now, so everything might happen.

[Eric]

Again, a lot of you kiddies seem to think the populace wouldn't react negatively when a major politician/noble suddenly vanishes. Who's the #1 suspect? Hinjo, and Hinjo saying, "No, for realz, I had nothing to do with it!" won't save him. Especially if people he's associated with are even suspected of doing it.

V's going to end the civil war - the right thing for the wrong reason, and definitely the wrong method. V is going to end it permanently.

How many 200ft demons appear on islands?

Kabuto should not have been ON Hinjo's boat. They assasinate each other anyway (because they stopped trying to kill Shojo for Meat loaf night, and started to fight amongst themselves).

Sea trolls have invaded many times, as well as other mid level monsters. Unless Kabuto were somehow warded (or controlling them), there's PLENTY of opportunity for him to have done a Reggie Perrin.

Lastly, the nobles are all about assasination while hiding the attempt. By Hinjo having impeccable alibi and there being absolutely no evidence, if they DO think he's killed Kabuto, they'll have more respect and a lot more fear of him.

And maybe leave him alone.

[Eric]

Hinjo : "Vaarsuvius, I arrest you in the name of Azure City for crimes against it's nobles. Come along quietly; you already know I can take a disintegrate spell."

V: "Yeah, you and what army? Oh, them....um, could I have a few hours to study a different spell list?"

V: On what charge? Oh, that's a crime in Azure City, isn't it? Well, this isn't AC is it, so your law doesn't apply. Given that we've been sent here once before on a trumped up charge so that your master could get us to do what he couldn't get you to do...

Hinjo has a lot more to lose than V in any confrontation.

[Pronounceable]

I noticed something: V said "the next spell" and we know he has created other spells. How many spells could he have researched until now? It's been long and I'm fuzzy, what was the rules on original spell research?

And when (if) things go back to normal, what's V gonna do with all those unique divination spells? Can we foresee a specialization into divination in V's far future? Is double specialization at all possible in DnD anyway?

[Manoftyr]

V's actions while clearly chaotic are still not quite 'evil' in my opinion at least because they aren't motivated by self interest...all he wants to do is re-connect with Haley whom he feels incredible loyalty towards and reunite the order so they can resume 'saving the world' as he put it earlier...if his motive was entirely selfish then there'd be more of a case for arguing him being evil.

I mean, crap, I've RPed Chaotic 'Good' characters who have done similar things to what V just did for similar reasons...threatening someone or 'using mean words' is not enough to qualify someone as evil, unless your definition of evil is inherently childish and short sighted. I remember in one campaign my chaotic 'good' character who was a revolutionary ended up killing countless Paladins because they were 'lawfully' oppressing the local populace by upholding their king's unjust taxes and violently putting down pockets of rebellion within the kingdom, they believed they were doing the 'right' and 'good' thing but were still hurting the majority...being Lawful Good doesn't automatically mean 'always right', my character saw himself as defending the common man and overthrowing oppressive tyrants and therefore was not evil, we was charitable and kind to the downtrodden and utterly selfless in his protection of them, therefore making him a good person...if strongly chaotic.

I feel like people on this forum get the law/chaos axis and the good/evil axis confused a lot when it's actually really simple, Evil is being motivated solely out of self-interest where as Good is being motivated by the desire to help others and neutral falling in between the two. Law is going with the established way of doing things and the convention of laws, royalty, cities, mannerisms etc. and all that where as Chaotic is going 'against' that grain and again, neutrality is somewhere in between...therefore, talking like a jerk or being 'mean' doesn't at all indicate that one is evil but it does imply chaotic tendencies, it is acting out of self interest and putting yourself and only yourself ahead of others that defines you as Evil...V has done none of this.

Of course, this is all conjecture since this is Rich's comic and 'not' mine and therefore how good/evil law/chaos work and interact is solely at his discretion, no one else's...but even still it seems that more evidence of truly anti-altruistic thinking/behavior must be gathered before we lump V into the evil, or even 'sliding' categories...at this juncture he seems to me to be either chaotic neutral or true neutral with some chaotic tendencies.

V's intentions are still in the right, his motives are just...he's just extremely frustrated by the idiocy of practically everyone else on the freakin boat and has long since been dis-inclined towards being nice about anything, that and I can't imagine being stuck on a boat with Paladins and Nobles for months can be ANYTHING but extremely unpleasant, I'm more surprised he hasn't killed anyone up 'until' now.

I'm hoping this ends somehow with V killing Hinjo's self-righteous, arrogant and obnoxious Lawful-Stupid Paladin ass in self-defense when Hinjo tries to arrest him thus plunging the fleet into civil war thus ending this arc which has become 'FAR' too Paladin-centric for my liking...

And after all, killing a Paladin can't technically be considered an evil act seeing as Paladins don't have souls

[Frenzied_Berz]

And after all, killing a Paladin can't technically be considered an evil act seeing as Paladins don't have souls

Hear Hear!

[Nevrmore]

I liked the strip. It showed me that no matter how much growth Elan is showing, he's still Elan.

It still feels forced. That's like if you have a character who, says, likes marshmallows a lot suddenly interrupt V's threat with, "Man, I could sure go for some S'mores right now! I'm sorry, what were you talking about?"

It'd be in line with his characterization, but it would be contrived.

[Eric]

I feel like people on this forum get the law/chaos axis and the good/evil axis confused a lot when it's actually really simple, Evil is being motivated solely out of self-interest where as Good is being motivated by the desire to help others and neutral falling in between the two.

I'd figure more:

Good: Think of your needs while helping others. (you want to be helped when you're in trouble)
Evil: Think of your needs and hurting others makes it better (you want fewer people to challenge you)
Neutral: Think of your needs and avoid hurting others (it doesn't help if eveyone's naffed off at you

And after all, killing a Paladin can't technically be considered an evil act seeing as Paladins don't have souls

Nah, they get to go to the really EXCLUSIVE afterlife. The Hilton of Heavens you might say. As opposed to the Trust House Forte of Heavens normal LG gets. I mean, they even let *Eugene Greenhilt* in there!

And so you're really doing those paladins a favour.

[Prowl]

I feel like people on this forum get the law/chaos axis and the good/evil axis

Many people on this forum seem to think that alignment has one axis with law on one end and evil on the other.

[Manoftyr]

Many people on this forum seem to think that alignment has one axis with law on one end and evil on the other.

Yeah, I've noticed that too...it's kind of annoying actually.

[Eric]

It still feels forced. That's like if you have a character who, says, likes marshmallows a lot suddenly interrupt V's threat with, "Man, I could sure go for some S'mores right now! I'm sorry, what were you talking about?"

It'd be in line with his characterization, but it would be contrived.

Some things just defy explanation. Elan can't see this threat as a threat because there's no way for him to realise it.

If V had threatened him with a slap, or explosive runes on his toilet paper, this he could have understood.

Or if he'd made it more extreme, he would have thought it was a joke threat. When someone threatens to kill you with a knife when you're asleep, you wonder if that might happen. If someone threatens to take an umbrella, put it up your bum and open it, it's so graphic (and stupid, though VERY painful, even if you can't open it) that it loses its threat.

If Elan tells Durkon about it, Durkon may get angry at V and Elan may say something like "Oh, come on, he was only kidding around" not because he's stupid but because he's naive.

And he can't really think that V *really* means him harm.

I don't think V did either. As far as I see it, V's pretty much thinking that if he has to explain to Elan that he shouldn't tell Hinjo for three days, that's three days he's not able to do research to find the rest of the OOtS. If Elan does rat on him, he'll deal with it when it comes, but it is unlikely to take three days. A net saving on V's very busy schedule.

[Manoftyr]

Nah, they get to go to the really EXCLUSIVE afterlife. The Hilton of Heavens you might say. As opposed to the Trust House Forte of Heavens normal LG gets. I mean, they even let *Eugene Greenhilt* in there!

And so you're really doing those paladins a favour.

But alas! they can't allow themselves to enjoy or partake in any of the pleasures of paradise because it violates their tenants and class restrictions...

So is it 'truly' heaven?, Or just some perverse form of psychological torture?!

[hamishspence]

To me, its people confusing Evil with Chaotic, not confusing Law with Good. But then, As a reader of supplements as well as core books, I like the supplements that put high importance on correct treatment of prisoners being Good, not just Lawful, and murder being Evil, not just Chaotic.

[Eric]

But alas! they can't allow themselves to enjoy or partake in any of the pleasures of paradise because it violates their tenants and class restrictions...

So is it 'truly' heaven?, Or just some perverse form of psychological torture?!

Nah, it's like marriage vows. "Till death do us part". Just ask Eugene.

Imagine how you'll party down when you've spend all your life being unable to do it!

Bacchus would be leaving for his bed before the night is out!!!

[courtjester]

Ummmm....

Giant just upped the ante way up on Drama for the strip!

This makes a great comic but - I don't see how this team will get back together (even assuming they meet physically)- much less with the banter that I've gotten used to.

Roy definitely kept the Order together.

On a more personal note, I'm sad to see this drama continue to take a dark turn. One of the things I love about the strip and D&D, is the wink and nod towards the idea that these are PCs - regardless of "role playing," there is a hint that things will be fine because the players are friends. V's action and a break up towards solo (or small group) adventuring puts a strain on one of the fun aspects of the strip. Those who play the game all know that there is nothing really fun when one member of the group takes things personally or too far.

[Eric]

Ummmm....

Giant just upped the ante way up on Drama for the strip!

This makes a great comic but - I don't see how this team will get back together (even assuming they meet physically)- much less with the banter that I've gotten used to.

Yup, this could be the rising action section of the story arc.

Roy definitely kept the Order together.

Which may help explain why Roy's been out of it so long.

a) show how much Roy brought to the team (a la "It's a Wonderful Life")
b) allow the rest to do something without the guidance of Roy (and thereby grow into an adult: it's not until you leave home that you make the mistakes that learning from make you an adult)

[Scarlet Knight]

V: On what charge? Oh, that's a crime in Azure City, isn't it? Well, this isn't AC is it, so your law doesn't apply. Given that we've been sent here once before on a trumped up charge so that your master could get us to do what he couldn't get you to do...

Hinjo has a lot more to lose than V in any confrontation.

So this doesn't turn into another 30 page thread, I will give my thoughts & allow you the final word as rebuttal.

Hinjo may have to confront Vaarsuvius BECAUSE he has more to lose.

Since Hinjo created House Kato on the ships, it stands to reason he is still considered the ruler. Kubota could not ignore his ruling. Hinjo must uphold the law to be considered the legitimate ruler. Especially since some beleive he committed regicide. He must also demonstrate that he is not his non-lawful uncle.

He may be killed, but paladins are used the the idea of dying to uphold the law. Perhaps someone may convince him that his duty is to protect his people by not confronting V, but it won't be the fear of dying that will stay his hand. Loss of his life is bad; loss of his honor is worse. (IMO)

[Healer Hobo]

Did it jump out at anyone that in the bottom 5 panels, V slightly resembled Redcloak trying to explain something to Xykon?

[Da'Shain]

I don't know if I agree that Elan was being either particularly stupid or smart, here. I read it more as Elan simply being totally unable to imagine those he considers his friends turning on him.

It's the same as when Roy nearly abandoned him, IIRC. He doesn't even think of the possibility of Roy not coming to his rescue.

Elan's too damn good for his own good.


Also, did NOT see that coming. I had thought V had similar reservations against hurting its friends. Although he certainly has threatened them before, so perhaps this was simply, as stated, an Intimidate check and there was no true malice behind it ... but it didn't seem that way to me.

Definitely seems as though the Oracle's prophecy centered on this, though.

[JonahFalcon]

How many 200ft demons appear on islands?

Kabuto should not have been ON Hinjo's boat. They assasinate each other anyway (because they stopped trying to kill Shojo for Meat loaf night, and started to fight amongst themselves).

Sea trolls have invaded many times, as well as other mid level monsters. Unless Kabuto were somehow warded (or controlling them), there's PLENTY of opportunity for him to have done a Reggie Perrin.

Lastly, the nobles are all about assasination while hiding the attempt. By Hinjo having impeccable alibi and there being absolutely no evidence, if they DO think he's killed Kabuto, they'll have more respect and a lot more fear of him.

And maybe leave him alone.

The populace knows nothing about demons on some remote island. Grow up.

[Neon Knight]

He's literally too stupid to threaten...

I love Elan.

[JonahFalcon]

By the way, even if Hinjo had already sentenced Kobuto to death legally, I don't think he'd appreciate some foreigners carrying out an execution for him. And Kobuto wasn't even under arrest. He wasn't even a suspect for anything yet.

[AyuVince]

What exactly has Elan done because he won't give Haley up?

Well, for one, he knows the rules, and so does Haley. You can expect Elan to never run around and desert her.

(Sorry, that was SO tempting. :P)

In other news, V seems to have gone mad.

Evey Hammond: "Are you like, a crazy person?"

Wait, no, the OTHER V. Has gone mad. Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!

Even with all this foreshadowing and brooding, I predict that #600 will have nothing to do with Vaarsuvius (well ze might appear in it, but not play the main role).

[RosesOnConcrete]

So the consensus seems to be Greater Obfuscating Stupidity on Elan's part, and a severe lack of a nap on V's.

For some reason, this just makes me really miss having everyone together in one plot place. *sigh*