OOTS #597 - The Discussion Thread

[SteveMB]

The punchline in this one was forced. There's no reason why Elan should have suddenly reverted into his idiot mode.

There are at least two good possible explanations: he's pretending not to understand the threat in order to defuse the situation, or he's failing to understand the threat because he has a big honking blind spot about a teammate.

[Morty]

The punchline in this one was forced. There's no reason why Elan should have suddenly reverted into his idiot mode.

Agreed. He was behaving halfway inelligently for a while, then suddenly *bamf!* and he's a moron again. V's threat was hardly subtle. Then again, Elan might even now be simply unable to think that a teammate who isn't Belkar might want to kill him.

[The Glyphstone]

Character development be d*****, Elan will always be Elan. And that's a good thing.

[Hwarinengwion]

V is looking rather dark in this strip. I kinda wonder what a detect evil spell would say about him at this moment. Does a neutral player's reading change to follow their current trend of actions? I mean threatening a team member, come on!

As much as I would love to see it I think that faking confusion while effective is too much of a improvement to be realistic. It is far more likely that the Giant threw that in so that we wouldn't have two huge transformations happening at the same time.

[Belkster11]

I say V's moving down to Neutral Evil, but steadily moving to Chaotic evil, the rank Belkar's in, only Belkar just wanted to kill things. V's probably going about this for his/her own personal gain.

Essentially, she's turning into an elvish version of Redcloak.

[pendell]

Agreed. He was behaving halfway inelligently for a while, then suddenly *bamf!* and he's a moron again. V's threat was hardly subtle. Then again, Elan might even now be simply unable to think that a teammate who isn't Belkar might want to kill him.

Rule of Funny and cool. When the plot calls for it, Elan is highly competent and effective. Then just as suddenly reverts to total idiot.

I admit that this schizophrenia is starting to wear on my suspension of disbelief just a bit.

But I honestly have to wonder whether Elan is really being as stupid as he seems to be ..or is only pretending. He IS a bard.

We'll see. My money is on "really is that stupid'. But if so, Elan really needs some Ritalin. These bounces between hyper-competence and sheer befuddledness speaks to some kind of chemical imbalance.

Should I say it? Yes, I shall. I suspect that this entire strip could be cut from the arc and not affect the story one way or the other.

Was V bluffing? Or is he really threatening to kill his teammates? Would (s)he have done so if (s)he wasn't tired, frustrated, and at his/her rope's end? We'll see.

I am certain of two things, though: V will not tamely submit to arrest by AC. And (s)he has the power to destroy the entire fleet, unassisted.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[White Rook]

Haha, I love New V. A+ work.

[Lamech]

V is looking rather dark in this strip. I kinda wonder what a detect evil spell would say about him at this moment. Does a neutral player's reading change to follow their current trend of actions? I mean threatening a team member, come on!

As much as I would love to see it I think that faking confusion while effective is too much of a improvement to be realistic. It is far more likely that the Giant threw that in so that we wouldn't have two huge transformations happening at the same time.

A detect evil spell would probably show that V is good. He possibly commited one evil act and he had a half-way decent justification. I don't think he has done enough to change his aligment yet. The threat didn't last long, so I assume that was not actually meant.

[Blaznak]

I liked the strip. It showed me that no matter how much growth Elan is showing, he's still Elan. And no matter how driven by madness and power V may be, V still knows when the immovable object is in the path and that its time to go a different route.

It will be interesting to see the ripples of this boulder tossed into the OOtS Interaction Pool.

Later!

[Forealms]

Alright, I've decided that V is Chaotic Neutral. Maybe True Neutral, but that's a bit of a stretch.

[Frenzied_Berz]

Meh. I'm not at all that pleased with this strip. Neither because of poor writing or forced punchlines. But am I the only one who thinks that thinks that the reason Elan's going to tell Hinjo is because he feels that V cheated him out of his own romantic subplot? And now he's being a whiny little bard.?

[ref]

V is definitely going the way of the Boomer here, which is pretty sad.

[Samurai Jill]

There are at least two good possible explanations: he's pretending not to understand the threat in order to defuse the situation, or he's failing to understand the threat because he has a big honking blind spot about a teammate.

I'd guess it was mostly done for humour. ...It was pretty funny, actually.

V is definitely going the way of the Boomer here, which is pretty sad.

He's transforming into a hot asian cyborgess?

[Timespike]

Geez, Giant, that was pretty raw...

[nybbler]

More than ever it piques my interest to know what happened to V after s/he casts the invisiblity during the battle at breach and the time he is next seen hiding among the crowd at ship.

Maybe it wasn't a simple invisibility spell. Maybe it was a Ring of Invisibility. At least, V is certainly looking and acting like someone who has been messing around that sort of thing.

[Pronounceable]

It'a quarrel between friends. You know, a whole lot of nastiness on both sides followed by a period of not speaking that ultimately ends with apologies (and scars). Elan saying Therkla has more depth than V is inexcusable. Even if it were true (which's not), you don't say things like that to your friends. Plus, Elan said he decided to tell Hinjo because of V's (admittedly horrible) words which prompted V to threaten him.

And he was bluffing. V's not evil, he won't kill his friends over an arguement. Besides it's V. He kills things he wants to kill (or goes into a monologue about immediate arcane destruction). However, scare tactic failed miserably. Elan is too dumb/good natured to understand a threat from V. He really doesn't get it, just look at his face (then remember him trying to bluff the prison guards).
...
But if Hinjo or some other NPC comes on V like this, he'll snap. And disintegrated remains of a paladin would be indistinguishable from that of a dragon's.

[Kaytara]

Meh. I'm not at all that pleased with this strip. Neither because of poor writing or forced punchlines. But am I the only one who thinks that thinks that the reason Elan's going to tell Hinjo is because he feels that V cheated him out of his own romantic subplot? And now he's being a whiny little bard.?

That's how I read it. "You hurt my feelings, so now I'm going to tell on you to the principal paladin. Not because I think telling him about this is the right thing to do, but because you're such a meanie and I just want to see you smacked down."

Immature? Oh yes. ^^

And I agree with cnsvnc.

[pendell]

It'a quarrel between friends. You know, a whole lot of nastiness on both sides followed by a period of not speaking that ultimately ends with apologies (and scars). Elan saying Therkla has more depth than V is inexcusable. Even if it were true (which's not), you don't say things like that to your friends. Plus, Elan said he decided to tell Hinjo because of V's (admittedly horrible) words which prompted V to threaten him.

And he was bluffing. V's not evil, he won't kill his friends over an arguement. Besides it's V. He kills things he wants to kill (or goes into a monologue about immediate arcane destruction). However, scare tactic failed miserably. Elan is too dumb/good natured to understand a threat from V. He really doesn't get it, just look at his face (then remember him trying to bluff the prison guards).
...
But if Hinjo or some other NPC comes on V like this, he'll snap. And disintegrated remains of a paladin would be indistinguishable from that of a dragon's.

I'm not sure V *has* friends any more. (s)he seems to be reaching a point where (s)he considers those who are not in possession of massive amounts of arcane power to be mere insects; to be ignored unless they impede V in his/her goals, at which case they are swatted like the insects they are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SmartAlec]

That's how I read it. "You hurt my feelings, so now I'm going to tell on you to the principal paladin. Not because I think telling him about this is the right thing to do, but because you're such a meanie and I just want to see you smacked down."

I dunno... if you read this and the previous strip one after the other, it feels a lot more like Elan was prepared to tell Hinjo the truth before angry words were spoken between V and him. First he's sarcast ic about how lying to Hinjo is a bad idea, and then in the second panel, he is cut off saying that "It's wrong to -", which could have been a continuation of his case for why killing someone and trying to cover it up is bad.

After the angry words are spoken, though, I think he decides that trying to convince V to come clean is a wasted effort. Yes, I daresay his feelings are hurt and he's angry, but not that this is his sole motivator for telling Hinjo the truth.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Spoiler

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So Kubota and therkla were just there to have V snap in front of Elan and doing something harsh? I liked Therkla, this sort of cheapens her story arc. Well, she was just a NPC but...

Spoiler

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No, that wasn't the whole purpose of Therkla & Kubota. Kubota was initially the antagonist who represented the "enemy within" for Hinjo's Regime (aiding in the fall of Azure City and actively screwing up the rebuilding effort; plus he gave effect to Shoujo's comments regarding scheming nobles).

Therkla existed both to resolve this initial Arc and to provide Elan with a "hot villain" that he had to deal with realistically. Recall that he believed that Seducing Bad Girls was part of his duty - now he has to see that such flirtations don't always end without consequences.

A dramatic mini-Arc that fleshed out the amusing Lord Kubota and provided fuel for not one, but two characters to develop? Seems like a fine use of comparatively minor NPCs.

[cavalier973]

This may have already been said, but V was getting dangerously close to self-destruction. Elan, if you remember, was promised a happy ending by the oracle; therefore, any attempts by V to destroy Elan would have ended tragically--for V.

[Rogue 7]

Elan's a better man than I. I would have decked V after his comment about "limiting myself to oral".

[Warren Dew]

Weird. No one has yet mentioned either of the things I find interesting about the strip.

1. Vaarsuvius' threat makes no sense at all. It would make sense to kill Elan before he could tell Hinjo, and it would make sense to kill Hinjo after Elan told Hinjo, but threatening to kill Elan only after he'd made Hinjo into a distraction? To me, it looks like the first instance of Vaarsuvius really not thinking straight.

2. Shouldn't Elan show at least a tiny bit of guilt about not having contributed at all to getting back together with Haley? Or is he actually shallow enough that "out of sight, out of mind" applies here?

Shifting topics, wasn't the reason behind the disintegrate to *avoid* a whole bunch of pointless strips? Just sayin'.

Karma pretty much dictated that they'd just be replaced with other strips Vaarsuvius wouldn't be interested in. I was kind of hoping a switch back to Haley, but....

Essentially, she's turning into an elvish version of Redcloak.

'Cause Vaarsuvius is sacrificing thousands of fellow elves researching the spells, and finding Haley will result in the destruction of the world and everyone on it. Right.

And, okay, 3. It's really cute that Belkar, even as an illusion, manages to get shots in at both Vaarsuvius and Elan.

[esmerelder]

Consider V's point of view: You're literally working yourself sick trying to solve this problem. The other two guys mostly just sit twiddling their thumbs or run off on some wild sidequests with random NPCs. Every so often, they force you to get involved in some way, though you'd rather just keep working. If they can't help, then they at least shouldn't get in the way, right?
Then to top it off, the supposedly high-Wisdom dwarf wants you to move on and look for the bloody GATE instead, and though you've tried telling him why it's a bad idea, he's just convinced it's your emotions speaking. And then the spoony bard is broken over some NPC having been in love with him, though he's done nothing but hinder your own efforts of rescuing his girlfriend. And when you point out his lack of loyalty and failure to contribute, he just calls you horrible and mean and says he'll tell on you - because you happened to hurt his feelings, not because he thinks it's the right thing to do, mind you - even though you're the only one actually trying to fix things. And doesn't that idiot realise that you going to trial for killing that villain at this point would even FURTHER hinder you in solving the problem? (Oh, and you just saved the whole fleet from being destroyed by a ludicrously huge devil.)

YES - to which I'd add that thanks to sleep-deprivation and some amusing talking-at-cross-purposes, you're also under the impression that said spoony bard has just cheated on your best friend.

I am putting myself into the 'feeling sorry for V' camp here - zir actions are horrible, and becoming more horrible by the strip, be ze is also so obviously in need of sleep, reassurance and security, probably in that order.

One thing that this arc is demonstrating is that V seems to have much stronger feelings towards Haley than we ever suspected - I don't mean that in a slashy or sexual way, but it seems clear that with the loss of Haley and Roy, the only two members of the Order that V really got along with, ze feels much more alone in the Order than before. V is also now probably under the impression that ze misses Haley more than Elan does, which is hardly going to improve relations between the two of them. Having said that, though, I am awfully glad that the situation was defused by either Elan's extreme cleverness or his extreme stupidity - and I think on some level, V was still able to recognise the 'out' that ze was being given by Elan's (feigned?) incomprehension, and was happy to take it by walking away.

[krysjez]

I have a horrible feeling that V will fall sick/something and sappy subplot happens.

Other than that, I want the old V back!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Vaarsuvius' threat makes no sense at all. It would make sense to kill Elan before he could tell Hinjo, and it would make sense to kill Hinjo after Elan told Hinjo, but threatening to kill Elan only after he'd made Hinjo into a distraction? To me, it looks like the first instance of Vaarsuvius really not thinking straight.

V planned to kill Elan if he didn't back down, but due to Intimidate Fail ey got distracted and calmed down. Yes, it wasn't the clearest thinking, but it is important to note that V entirely did plan to kill Elan here - which is a big step from making snarky comments after being ignored and abused by eirs party.

[Zolem]

I don't know about that. If Elan was just playing like he didn't get it, that would actually have been a really smart way to resolve the situation without directly challenging V.

That's what I was wondering, BLuff is a Bard skill after all.

[Faramir]

YES - to which I'd add that thanks to sleep-deprivation and some amusing talking-at-cross-purposes, you're also under the impression that said spoony bard has just cheated on your best friend.

Agree with both of you here.

I'd also like to add that Elan is and always has been a really nice and good-natured idiot. This has not changed in any strip to date. That does not mean that he can't be skilled and competent in different areas especially if given guidance by eithers. Someone can be of limited intelligence and still be really good in certain fields (just as one example swordsmanship doesn't really call for a high iq).

But doesn't he know any good lullabyes?

[Warren Dew]

V planned to kill Elan if he didn't back down

Before or after Elan told Hinjo? The "do as you wish" implies afterwards. The whole thing comes across as, "I don't care, but I'll kill you for it", which makes no sense even for one far less logical than Vaarsuvius.

Contrary to what some are posting, I think it would have been incredibly out of character for Elan to have understood what Vaarsuvius was trying to say here, as it wasn't anything cogent, anyway.

[NephandiMan]

Eeeesh...

Well, I don't think there can really be any doubt now - barring any drastic and unforeseen change for the better, this is V's Start of Darkness. Making an ominous reference to the disintegrated remains of a human, dwarf, or halfling is one thing; directly threatening the life of the least offensive OotS member (except perhaps Durkon) is something else entirely.

Speaking of V's threat, I wonder how Elan could possibly have misunderstood it. Sure, it was a syntactical snarl even by V's standards, but the sheer drama of the threat should've made it perfectly intelligible for Elan. Other than "It's funnier that way" - which, I admit, is a fine justification - I can't think of any reason for Elan to fail to grasp the full import of V's words.

Also, I'm curious to see whether Elan keeps his word, and tells Hinjo what happened - perhaps he said that simply in a (justifiable!) fit of pique. Perhaps, on reflection, he'll realize V was threatening him, and decide that discretion is the better part of not getting one's ashes scattered to the four winds.