Of grapples, explosions and evasion.

[notagain111]

This was by far the most retarded thing i've had happen thus far at my sunday night DnD sessions....

I had some wacked out warforged thing which was almost dead first grapple the fighter type guy with evasion. The baddy won the grapple, and proceeded to blow himself up, sending shrapnel everywhere within 10 feet - yes, some stuff i came up with on my own (or it's in some book some where, i didnt look for it :P) Of course, the fighter passes his reflex save and he has evasion from some silly cross class stuff. Some how this dosnt seem possible, even with evasion! But then again it is DnD... Your thoughts?

[monty]

Since you're not flat-footed against a grappler, it seems mechanically sound.

From a fluff perspective, it's justifiable. As the baddie explodes, he loosens his grip, giving the PC just enough time to slip away and avoid doom.

[BobVosh]

Wow, I thought grappling made you flat footed. You just lose Dex to ac other than that you are fine.

[monty]

Wow, I thought grappling made you flat footed. You just lose Dex to ac other than that you are fine.

You lose Dex to AC against everybody except the person you're grappling.

[Tokiko Mima]

Dex to AC against foes other than the ones you are grappling, anyway. So it meant that from a mechanical standpoint, he was the same as anyone caught in the radius of an AoE. A wizard can deadcenter blast a rogue with fireball all he wants, and even though the rogue is in the center of the effect the rogue can succeed on the saving throw and take no damage.

Look at it as the fighter managed to twist the warforged just right so that the initial explosion radiated away from the fighter. Then the fighter rolled with the force of the shockwave, luckily landing behind some debris that deflected any significant shrapnel. HP are kinda a fluid concept anyway. Perhaps the fighter was injured, but not in a way that a proud heroic warrior wouldn't just shrug off till he could tend to his wounds?

Edit: Ninja'ed!

[BobVosh]

Edit: Ninja'ed!

Hardly. It was 50 minutes O.o

A fat trucker could "ninja" that :P

*edit* Or a one legged Lumberjack

[Tokiko Mima]

Hardly. It was 50 minutes O.o

A fat trucker could "ninja" that :P

*edit* Or a one legged Lumberjack

Umm.. 11:28 versus 11:32 is not 50 minutes. I was referring to monty mentioning the same clause of the rules as I did.

[monty]

Look at it as the fighter managed to twist the warforged just right so that the initial explosion radiated away from the fighter. Then the fighter rolled with the force of the shockwave, luckily landing behind some debris that deflected any significant shrapnel. HP are kinda a fluid concept anyway. Perhaps the fighter was injured, but not in a way that a proud heroic warrior wouldn't just shrug off till he could tend to his wounds?

I always thought of Evasion as being able to enter "rogue-space" or "monk-space" or wherever you get it from, kind of like an invisible portable hole that spits you back out right away. Improved Evasion means you get halfway in on a failed save.

That's my take on the fluff, anyway. How someone can sit unshielded in the middle of a 20-foot fireball and not get hurt is beyond me otherwise.

[Hawriel]

This was by far the most retarded thing i've had happen thus far at my sunday night DnD sessions....

I had some wacked out warforged thing which was almost dead first grapple the fighter type guy with evasion. The baddy won the grapple, and proceeded to blow himself up, sending shrapnel everywhere within 10 feet - yes, some stuff i came up with on my own (or it's in some book some where, i didnt look for it :P) Of course, the fighter passes his reflex save and he has evasion from some silly cross class stuff. Some how this dosnt seem possible, even with evasion! But then again it is DnD... Your thoughts?

The fighter was in a grapple with the object that expoded. This is what would happen

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...al-honor_N.htm

you do not ride the shockwave tokiko it hammers through you.

[Talic]

The fighter was in a grapple with the object that expoded. This is what would happen

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...al-honor_N.htm

you do not ride the shockwave tokiko it hammers through you.

Please go to tv-tropes and look up the Rule of Cool.

It governs many aspects of dramatic storytelling, and is, incidentally, the primary rule that Elan the Dashing Swordsman/bard uses in OotS. It's also, in many campaigns, especially homebrew ones, the primary rule.

Blasting out of the construction port of the exploding Death Star in the Millenium Falcon, using an explosion to launch you into the back of the moving van, letting an acid breathing shark bite you and knock you out of a pool of lava... That's Rule of Cool zone. If the end result is suitably awesome, some of the rules of reality can be bent and broken.

[RebelRogue]

You lose Dex to AC against everybody except the person you're grappling.

Flatfooted/Dex to AC bonus or not matters little. You are entitled to Reflex saves at any time, unless you're helpless. Reflex saves are, you know, reflexive actions

[Ogh_the_Second]

Nevertheless - and whether exactly by the rules or not - I suspect that my DM would just not allow a save for the one grappled by the warforged. Thus turning evasion useless.

That is, unless the blast would probably kill the grappled PC, in which case I guess the DM would allow a save. He's sometimes funny that way.

[Matthew]

Nevertheless - and whether exactly by the rules or not - I suspect that my DM would just not allow a save for the one grappled by the warforged. Thus turning evasion useless.

Yup. Don't be a slave to the rules.

[RebelRogue]

While I agree that you should not be a slave to the rules, I know that I would personally feel angered if I was denied a save in that situation as a player! Especially if I was playing a rogue. It's the kind of situation a rogue or monk should be able to somehow dodge with their exceptional training/luck/whatever power of cool! If it's "unrealistic" here, it's unrealistic anywhere, but this is heroic fantasy, not realism!

[Ogh_the_Second]

While I agree that you should not be a slave to the rules, I know that I would personally feel angered if I was denied a save in that situation as a player! Especially if I was playing a rogue. It's the kind of situation a rogue or monk should be able to somehow dodge with their exceptional training/luck/whatever power of cool! If it's "unrealistic" here, it's unrealistic anywhere, but this is heroic fantasy, not realism!

Although I understand the sentiment, I believe it is a matter of trust. Should "rules deviations" such as these happen all of the time, and especially regarding one PC/class/ability/whatever, then I would agree. However, I know my DM's not "out to get me", and would not allow the critter a save either were the situation reversed. (As long as it does not become standard operating procedure.)

[Roderick_BR]

From the SRD:

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

If being grappled allows "room to move" or counts as "bound"/"squeezing through and area" would be DM call. Myself. I would say the fighter was screwed.

[Yakk]

I'd assume that the Fighter spotted the explosion triggering, moved behind a solid plate, and was blasted (along with the plate) away from the explosion.

Place the fighter 20' away from the location, unharmed, and badass.

(Note that this generates both a method that agrees with the game mechanics and that could have happened, does not screw the player out of survival, and generates a cool image. I'll admit it doesn't mean the DM "won" by killing the player, but sometimes rocks fall, and someone survives.)

[SydneyLosstarot]

I'd personally rule that the fighter gets no evasion.

There are 'no save' spells, after all.

[Starbuck_II]

Flatfooted/Dex to AC bonus or not matters little. You are entitled to Reflex saves at any time, unless you're helpless. Reflex saves are, you know, reflexive actions

You are entitled to reflex saves even when helpless last I checked. You just get a big penalty.

[Curmudgeon]

You are entitled to reflex saves even when helpless last I checked. You just get a big penalty.

Yep. The only condition that prevents you from making a Reflex save is death.

[Ascension]

I'd assume that the Fighter spotted the explosion triggering, moved behind a solid plate, and was blasted (along with the plate) away from the explosion.

Place the fighter 20' away from the location, unharmed, and badass.

(Note that this generates both a method that agrees with the game mechanics and that could have happened, does not screw the player out of survival, and generates a cool image. I'll admit it doesn't mean the DM "won" by killing the player, but sometimes rocks fall, and someone survives.)

I think most successful reflex saves should logically move the character either to the periphery of the blast or out of the AoE entirely.

'course, if you houseruled that I'm sure someone would come up with a scout who would get skirmish on full attacks by blowing himself up and riding 10 ft or more on the blast wave with evasion and/or improved evasion.

[RebelRogue]

Reminds me of that Feat, which allowed you to 5' step into cover/concealment when evading and subsequently make a Hide check. Pretty cool, but probably rarely usable.

[Prometheus]

From the SRD:

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

If being grappled allows "room to move" or counts as "bound"/"squeezing through and area" would be DM call. Myself. I would say the fighter was screwed.

Thank you for posting that. This is the rule everyone else always forgets.

[monty]

When the big bad blows up, presumably he's no longer grappling you. That should give you sufficient room to move.

[Tokiko Mima]

Yes, I would also like to add that 'self-destruct' isn't technically on the list of allowed actions in a grapple.

I'm just saying that the Rule of Cool was a two way street at the time.

[Hawriel]

Please go to tv-tropes and look up the Rule of Cool.

It governs many aspects of dramatic storytelling, and is, incidentally, the primary rule that Elan the Dashing Swordsman/bard uses in OotS. It's also, in many campaigns, especially homebrew ones, the primary rule.

Blasting out of the construction port of the exploding Death Star in the Millenium Falcon, using an explosion to launch you into the back of the moving van, letting an acid breathing shark bite you and knock you out of a pool of lava... That's Rule of Cool zone. If the end result is suitably awesome, some of the rules of reality can be bent and broken.

Sorry buster but your "rule of cool" as you define it is nothing more than giving players what ever they want or they will cry. Last time I checked TV tropes are not RAW for D&D or any other game. The thinking that if some one unlucky enough or dumb enough to hug a bomb can dodge it, is so dumb it brakes what ever reallity that is in an RPG fanticy game. I would also rule on the side of reality when a player is in a confined space and blasted by fire. They would get a reflex save, but pray you make a fort save or asphyxiation do to all the oxygen being burned out of the confined space. RL example dead Japanies solders with no signs of injury, after Marines torched the entrince of a cave or bunker with flame throwers. I would counter your 'rule of cool' and say your just making your character a 'marty sue'.

[Knaight]

This particular explosion sounds possible to dodge, although I would be giving a massive penalty due to point blank range, and would be wanting a grapple escape first(at a bonus probably, depends on how the war forged blew up.. Now if the warforged had been holding the fighter and something else blew up then no, not unless you break the grapple first. Now if the hands blew up first, then no luck on either front.

[Tokiko Mima]

This particular explosion sounds possible to dodge, although I would be giving a massive penalty due to point blank range, and would be wanting a grapple escape first(at a bonus probably, depends on how the war forged blew up.. Now if the warforged had been holding the fighter and something else blew up then no, not unless you break the grapple first. Now if the hands blew up first, then no luck on either front.

I'm curious though.. how does this square with a PC mage dropping a fireball dead center on an evil rogue that the parties half gold dragon monk has grappled? Does the fireball do extra damage or have an increased DC because the rogue can't evade it while grappled?

The rules don't account for being grappled while rolling a reflex save, or (for example) making a fortitude save versus disease while weakened by a Strength poison. If you want to assign a circumstance penalty, that's fine. However, keep in mind what goes around comes around. If you tell a PC evasion is no good if you're grappled, then that's what they'll do the next time they want to hurt a foe with evasion.

[NecroRebel]

Sorry buster but your "rule of cool" as you define it is nothing more than giving players what ever they want or they will cry. Last time I checked TV tropes are not RAW for D&D or any other game. The thinking that if some one unlucky enough or dumb enough to hug a bomb can dodge it, is so dumb it brakes what ever reallity that is in an RPG fanticy game. I would also rule on the side of reality when a player is in a confined space and blasted by fire. They would get a reflex save, but pray you make a fort save or asphyxiation do to all the oxygen being burned out of the confined space. RL example dead Japanies solders with no signs of injury, after Marines torched the entrince of a cave or bunker with flame throwers. I would counter your 'rule of cool' and say your just making your character a 'marty sue'.

I think you're missing the point a bit. Many, perhaps even most, D&D and tabletop games in general are done in a cinematic style. This means they are strongly influenced by action movies, and in action movies, heroes can get grabbed by something that then explodes and survive largely unharmed. Rule of Cool is basically just saying that, if it would be awesome if something happened in a movie, it would be equally awesome if it happened ingame, and if it would be both awesome and not gamebreaking ingame it should be allowed.

There's another part of this is actually part of the rules of the game*: the Rule of Fun. If it is fun for something to happen, it should be allowed, while if it it not fun for something to happen, it shouldn't happen. Awesome things occuring (read: Rule of Cool) is fun, and so should be allowed. Meanwhile, having your character instagibbed is not fun, and thus shouldn't happen. Really, if you ever DM and decide that a character who is hit by a Fireball in a confined space is simply dead, be prepared for that character's player to quit on the spot, because that sort of thing is what we in the business (I use the phrase facetiously, of course) call stupid.

*If you do not believe me, I direct you to the 4th edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 7, last paragraph, quoted here in its entirety for your convenience:

Different people have different ideas of what’s fun
about D&D. Remember that the “right way” to play
D&D is the way that you and your players agree on
and enjoy. If everyone comes to the table prepared to
contribute to the game, everyone has fun.

[monty]

Sorry buster but your "rule of cool" as you define it is nothing more than giving players what ever they want or they will cry. Last time I checked TV tropes are not RAW for D&D or any other game. The thinking that if some one unlucky enough or dumb enough to hug a bomb can dodge it, is so dumb it brakes what ever reallity that is in an RPG fanticy game. I would also rule on the side of reality when a player is in a confined space and blasted by fire. They would get a reflex save, but pray you make a fort save or asphyxiation do to all the oxygen being burned out of the confined space. RL example dead Japanies solders with no signs of injury, after Marines torched the entrince of a cave or bunker with flame throwers. I would counter your 'rule of cool' and say your just making your character a 'marty sue'.

Wow, somebody's taking it a little too seriously.

It's not supposed to be realistic. If you think that is too unrealistic, I refer you to my previous example: how can a rogue (or any other character with Evasion) get caught in the middle of a 20-foot-radius sphere of fire and take no damage, remaining in the same square? Do you just do away with Evasion altoghether? Then I counter: that's not RAW either.