Moral Dilemma!

[AstralFire]

Pure hypothetical here. Ask me a question and I'll try to think up something to give you more information; generally will not just throw down a 'no that doesn't work' unless it's supposed to be part of the initial problem.

Mainly want to see what you guys can come up with.

Country/Plane/Heaven A is some sort of Good-aligned. Let's say Lawful Good. Country/Plane/Heaven B is, let's say, Chaotic Good. However, they are more strongly Good than ethically aligned.

A & B, billions of years ago, teamed up to imprison Lord Z in A's land, who committed acts of unspeakable evil and was also a totally whipped husband.

According to B's magicians though, it turns out that the method of imprisonment leaves Lord Z alive, frozen in his own consciousness, able to perceive the slow turning of the eons but able to do nothing. If killed, he will finally vanish into nothingness. This sort of slow torture, even unintentionally performed, goes strongly against B's morals and after so many years he's paid for his sins - so they intend to kill him.

B also has reason to believe (though only slight, and it's not incontrovertible) that Z's prison has slowly weakened over the years and that sometime within the next century he may break free - as in "it could be tomorrow, it could be 99 years from now" - the math is very imprecise. The collateral damage from the magic being shattered could potentially destroy half of A's infrastructure, in addition to the raging anger Z will have.

A has reason to suspect, however, that evil force R planted both pieces of information in B's ear, and is planning to capitalize on a moment of weakness to free Z and take both A&B by storm.

Diplomatic talks have failed on this front. The reason B & A know that killing Z would take a lot of effort and resources would be because B already tried once with a covert strike team of PCs that ended up failing and getting caught, possibly speeding the weakening of the bonds at the same time. A is not very happy with B right now.

Just to make it clear, it would take a lot of magical resources to actually kill Z, and R could attack during that time.

What do A and B do next?

[Saph]

That's a . . . remarkably specific hypothetical. :)

Well, if both sides are Good and reasonably bright, they'll know that the last thing they want is to get into a fight with each other. So what they really need is to find out which scenario is true - is B's information accurate or not?

Exactly how they ascertain this is up to them. Some sort of joint research project would be a safe approach, hopefully turning up more info so that they don't have to go on rumours and hearsay. A & B could pool information-gathering abilities and see what they could find. It's not like there's much time pressure.

Alternately, a compromise solution would be that they just agree to kill Z, but that's probably a last-resort plan.

- Saph

[ObesesPieces]

B should propose that A execute Z and A should comply. Z is of no benefit to any good realm and is a potential risk to people who are (approx 1/4 of Good) good just on his release. If R were to attack when Z was released and Z helped, all good could be wiped out completely. If Z is removed then A and B remain at full strength and are able to repel R. Z is one man, A,B, and R are full nations. Z's right to live do not supercede the rights of thousands of others to live, especially if Z intends to harm them anyway.

[Quellian-dyrae]

They enlist the PCs to investigate R! If they act like normal PCs, they will not stop investigating until R, Z, the not-yet-mentioned U, and their mystery masters have all been destroyed and summarily looted.

Joking aside, that kind of imprisonment isn't usually about "paying for sins," as much as it's about doing the only thing you can do to keep someone who is quite willing and able to cast everything you know to ruin from doing just that. Likewise, being trapped and conscious but unable to interact with the world is really no more tortuous than any prison (although prison itself probably seems a lot worse to a CG than a LG). In any event, if B tries to covertly free Z, they are making a big mistake on really rather sparse moral grounds.

As far as the weakening prison...well, if they free Z, what can they do? Unless they can make pretty darn well certain that they can neutralize the threat, freeing something like that, especially without concrete evidence that it might escape, and especially with the possibility that you are being duped into doing so on the table, is a foolish move. Trying to do so against the wishes or in direct opposition with your allies who are guarding the thing is doubly so.

The proper course of action, for both sides, is to gather more information, and work together to do so, some to a correct conclusion, and jointly make a decision about how best to handle things. Especially if they have up to a hundred years to gather the information in.

[kamikasei]

Diplomatic talks have failed on this front.

Why?

The obvious answer is that they work together to find the best solution, so this seems like an arbitrary way of saying "oh yeah, they can't actually do what they should". What caused talks to break down?

Likewise, being trapped and conscious but unable to interact with the world is really no more tortuous than any prison...

You don't think taking a prisoner in the real world and paralyzing him so that he can see and hear but not speak, move, or act in any way would be rather more torturous than standard first-world prison conditions?

[AstralFire]

@Saph: Sorry, I didn't make it clear enough. B wants to kill Z and free him into nothingness. A wants to leave him alone.

B should propose that A execute Z and A should comply. Z is of no benefit to any good realm and is a potential risk to people who are (approx 1/4 of Good) good just on his release. If R were to attack when Z was released and Z helped, all good could be wiped out completely. If Z is removed then A and B remain at full strength and are able to repel R. Z is one man, A,B, and R are full nations. Z's right to live do not supercede the rights of thousands of others to live, especially if Z intends to harm them anyway.

Just to make it clear (I'll edit the OP) it would take a lot of resources to actually kill Z, and R could attack during that time.

Why?

The obvious answer is that they work together to find the best solution, so this seems like an arbitrary way of saying "oh yeah, they can't actually do what they should". What caused talks to break down?

I don't have anything specific, since I was just trying to come up with the toughest moral dilemma I could think of that wasn't as cliche as shooting baby Hitler.

Give me a few minutes and I'll come up with a specific answer, since mostly I want to see how creative people can be with this.

EDIT: Specific answer done, diplomatic problems a-go-go baby.

[Another_Poet]

I think at this point A and B need to plan some subterfuge.

The one B is more likely to suggest (chaotic) involves some deceiving of the enemy: publicly announce that both countries have resolved not to kill Z, as it is too risky and the intel is bad. Then go ahead and secretly execute Z anyway.

The one A is more likely to suggest involves honourable combat: publicly announce that Z will be executed, but then send a fake execution team with a large, powerful magic force following at a distance. If B's intel was bad, R will attack the fake executioners when they are fake-killing Z (using illusion or something to pretend to open his tomb, but not actually weakening the seals at all). The large force springs out of hiding and wipes out the bulkof R's forces. Once R is mopped up, Z can be killed for reals. No lies needed.

[AstralFire]

AP - your first solution is problematic because I was unclear on what I meant by B wanting to free Z earlier - sorry. A doesn't want to kill Z, B does.

Your second one, though, wins. I like it. :D *gives AP 'Strategist' hat*

[Quellian-dyrae]

You don't think taking a prisoner in the real world and paralyzing him so that he can see and hear but not speak, move, or act in any way would be rather more torturous than standard first-world prison conditions?

A good point, but I tend to look at it more as the difference between solitary confinement and solitary confinement while bound and gagged. If any aspect of it is really tortuous, it's the fact that it's been going on for billions of years. But again, that's somewhat necessary since if you let the thing out at a billion and one it might very well destroy the planet or something.

The morality of real-world methods of criminal justice don't really work all that well when dealing with eons-old and potentially world-shattering evils.

[Paper_Golem]

Could A simply create a redundant temporal prison for Z around the existing one? Say, a prison that completely stops time, rather than merely slowing it? Then A doesn't have to go mucking around with Z's existing prison and risk release, B doesn't have to worry about the torture aspect because Z no longer perceives the world very slowly, rather Z does not perceive it at all, and the extra layer of protection wards against attacks by R.

[AstralFire]

That's probably entirely possible if A&B are planes. Nations, no.

Hmm, I kind of want to use this as a campaign starter hook now.

[Erom]

If R is clearly evil and thus a valid target for A and B, A+B should preemptively attack R, remove it from the equation, and thus have full time and resources to solve the Z problem. Furthermore, they should do it with all haste assuming Z's escape become more possible/likely as time passes.

The problem, of course, is that if R is just Neutral and not clearly Evil, both Good countries may have difficulty justifying a pre-emptive attack, especially B as it has no reason to believe R is an enemy except A's word.

[hamishspence]

By exalted deeds, justifying a pre-emptive attack against an evil nation can be difficult, as well.

[Ascension]

Wait, is this for anyone's moral dilemmas? If so, I have a question...

There's this paladin... let's call him Bob. Bob's society is Antinatalist, meaning that they believe that giving birth is morally wrong, since the child thus brought into the world will inevitably suffer in the world, making the parents culpable for the child's suffering.

Does this mean that Bob can use Smite Evil on his parents for giving birth to him and causing him to experience the pain of existence? For that matter, could Bob Smite any parents?

[AstralFire]

R is neutral tending towards evil. Like, if you were talking in broadly nationalistic terms you could call it an evil country, but it's not like every person there wants to stab you and eat your flesh. They're expansionistic and imperialist but they haven't made any overtly deadly movements for a while and engage in regular trade with A & B. Mos Eisley.

For the curious, the letters were chosen for two reasons:
- Hidden Power Rangers reference. Rita Repulsa and Lord Zedd. Hence the whipped husband bit. A & B was just to be A & B.
- At some point I wanted to make a "do a barrel roll!" joke but I forgot.

The thread was mostly made out of my curiosity to find some actual moral dilemmas/fishing for plot hook ideas.

[Project_Mayhem]

For some reason this reminded me of Final fantasy .... 5 is it?

[hamishspence]

In 2nd ed, maybe: rules said Good and evil were defined by culture, and different cultures could have different, equally valid, viewpoints.

In 3rd ed, no, From Vile darkness onward, it has tended toward objective morality: whats good in one place cannot be evil in another, and vice versa. And Exalted deeds, even if a society accepts certain acts as normal and good, they remain evil.

[AstralFire]

For some reason this reminded me of Final fantasy .... 5 is it?

Oddly, I was reminded as well, though I have only played it once.

[Project_Mayhem]

Oddly, I was reminded as well, though I have only played it once.

Yeah same here. Theres

Spoiler

Show

at least two worlds, and the big bads not in the universe you start on. Also theres some old chap who lost his memory. And two tame dragons. And pirates. And you can put the pirate IN THE NINJA CLASS!

if I recall correctly.

Annnnd, back on topic from here.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Does this mean that Bob can use Smite Evil on his parents for giving birth to him and causing him to experience the pain of existence? For that matter, could Bob Smite any parents?

That's not a moral dilemma, that's a rules dilemma. Assuming the standard D&D metaphysics, there's nothing evil about giving birth, and Bob's culture is probably evil itself if they actually practice murder based on an objectively incorrect notion.

Smite Evil wouldn't work on the parents, unless they were actually evil.

[Tokiko Mima]

Pure hypothetical here. Ask me a question and I'll try to think up something to give you more information; generally will not just throw down a 'no that doesn't work' unless it's supposed to be part of the initial problem.

Mainly want to see what you guys can come up with.

Hooray! I <3 MadLibs!

• A is a place.
• B is a place.
• R is the name of a group.
• Z is a male proper name.

K, so I have:
A = Laos
B = the sandlot behind my house
R = N.A.M.B.L.A. (I watch too much Daily Show.)
Z = Elvis Presley

and we get:

Laos & the sandlot behind my house, billions of years ago, teamed up to imprison Lord Elvis Presley in Laos's land, who committed acts of unspeakable evil and was also a totally whipped husband.

According to the sandlot behind my house's magicians though, it turns out that the method of imprisonment leaves Lord Elvis Presley alive, frozen in his own consciousness, able to perceive the slow turning of the eons but able to do nothing. If killed, he will finally vanish into nothingness. This sort of slow torture, even unintentionally performed, goes strongly against the sandlot behind my house's morals and after so many years he's paid for his sins - so they intend to kill him.

The sandlot behind my house also has reason to believe (though only slight, and it's not incontrovertible) that Elvis Presley's prison has slowly weakened over the years and that sometime within the next century he may break free - as in "it could be tomorrow, it could be 99 years from now" - the math is very imprecise. The collateral damage from the magic being shattered could potentially destroy half of Laos's infrastructure, in addition to the raging anger Elvis Presley will have.

Laos has reason to suspect, however, that evil force N.A.M.B.L.A. planted both pieces of information in the sandlot behind my house's ear, and is planning to capitalize on a moment of weakness to free Elvis Presley and take both Laos&the sandlot behind my house by storm.

Diplomatic talks have failed on this front. The reason the sandlot behind my house & Laos know that killing Elvis Presley would take a lot of effort and resources would be because the sandlot behind my house already tried once with a covert strike team of PCs that ended up failing and getting caught, possibly speeding the weakening of the bonds at the same time. Laos is not very happy with the sandlot behind my house right now.

Just to make it clear, it would take a lot of magical resources to actually kill Elvis Presley, and N.A.M.B.L.A. could attack during that time.

What do Laos and the sandlot behind my house do next?

Fun!!

Serious answer though. As a ruler of A, I would take seriously the suspicions of B and have to jointly investigate them. If Z is about to wake up, then something will have to be done and cooperation with B's plan will be forthcoming. The condition I set is that if they prove false, B will have to agree help me remove the influence of R.

[Starbuck_II]

Hooray! I <3 MadLibs!

• A is a place.
• B is a place.
• R is the name of a group.
• Z is a male proper name.

K, so I have:
A = Laos
B = the sandlot behind my house
R = N.A.M.B.L.A. (I watch too much Daily Show.)
Z = Elvis Presley

and we get:



Fun!!

Serious answer though. As a ruler of A, I would take seriously the suspicions of B and have to jointly investigate them. If Z is about to wake up, then something will have to be done and cooperation with B's plan will be forthcoming. The condition I set is that if they prove false, B will have to agree help me remove the influence of R.

I love your Ad Lib.

But back to the topic. As B, I would say screw A. We need to ensure that if ther seals break it is on our time and not when our pants are down (never a good time unless well maybe then).
As A, I'm pissed as a baby at B for sending PCs to try to do something... wait, did the PCs planeshift inside Elvis Presley's domain to try to kill him?
And get caught? By who Elvis Presley?
Are there plane guards...

I'm confused...

[AstralFire]

The sandlot's PCs were caught by the Dukes of Hazzard who guard the energy matrices holding Lord Elvis Presley.

[Tokiko Mima]

It just goes to show you that one man's raging anger is another man's hunka hunka burnin' love.

[Lapak]

Actually, what the presented situation reminds me of most is Glen Cook's Black Company novels, at least the first few.

Except B is actually almost as bad as R, and R really is trying to release Z. And A is kind of oblivious about the situation. But it's still the first thing that came to mind.

[Another_Poet]

Your second one, though, wins. I like it. :D *gives AP 'Strategist' hat*

Whoa, my very own hat? HOLY HATCRAP! That's awesome, it's better than a cookie. I'm honoured.

And I would like to point out that my first suggestion, with the secret execution, would work also - since A's main objection to execution is the risk of R's interference, misleading R away from the execution should get A to agree to the execution.

Unless, of course, they info leaks - and if R is doing its job right, they do. :)

[erikun]

Is the question what A & B would normally do, or what is the best thing for them to do?

Well, following what has happened so far, it sounds like A is going to increase their defenses (to keep both B and R from opening the prison) while B tries harder to kill off Z, possibly even going to war. Diplomatic relations have been cut off by now, unfortunately, and having A try something tricky (such as pretending to dig up Z and kill him) will likely get both nations B & R raiding them at the same time.

Ideally, you'd want a third party (the PCs?) mediating between A & B to re-open negotiations. Specifically, point out to B that R has been planting possibly-false information about Z, and point out to A that R's information could be correct. With a common known enemy (R) to worry about, both A & B are more likely to work together, specifically watching out for R while both nations devote a large number of troops to ensuring that Z stays not-free.

[Nohwl]

side b thinks the prison is weakening and has told side a? side a should offer to redo the prison spell/ritual/whatever with side b to give them more time to come to a decision. killing him is too costly, and side a isnt sure if the prison is breaking or not. if it is, then its sealed tighter and there is more time to get an agreement, if it isnt, it wont matter.

its not a solution, but the problem is avoided for a while. they can work out any agreement they want during that time.

side a is suspicious of side b and thinks that they are being manipulated. what if they are wrong? would they really want to risk letting z go?

[Telonius]

What do A and B do next?

Send representatives to the mortal realms and find some patsies adventurers who are willing to do the job for them, of course.

Otherwise ... pre-emptive strike against R, to destroy/weaken sufficiently that it couldn't pose a threat to them while they're killing Z. If the timeline is that short anyway, they're in trouble no matter what they do. But attacking R before it's ready is probably their best chance of success at both destroying Z and maintaining their kingdom/plane/etc. while they do so.

[Starbuck_II]

Send representatives to the mortal realms and find some patsies adventurers who are willing to do the job for them, of course.

Otherwise ... pre-emptive strike against R, to destroy/weaken sufficiently that it couldn't pose a threat to them while they're killing Z. If the timeline is that short anyway, they're in trouble no matter what they do. But attacking R before it's ready is probably their best chance of success at both destroying Z and maintaining their kingdom/plane/etc. while they do so.

B tried and he said A captured the PCs.