Alternative to Arcane Archer?

[Paul H]

Hi

Looking to build an alternate 14th lvl character for a home campaign. Books allowed are:
PHB, DMG, MM1, Complete (Adventurer, Arcane, Divine, Warrior), Spell & Magic Item Compendiums. (No Complete Mage, PHBII, etc).

Now I love spellcasters, but was looking into an alternate Ranged attacker.

Looking at this:

Half-Elf Rngr1/Warm6/Eld Knt 7
St 12 De 16 Co 14 In 14 Wi 8 Ch 14
Feats:
1) PBS
3) Practiced Spellcaster
6) Extra Edge
9) Precise Shot
12) Rapid Shot
Bonus Ftr Feat: Wpn Focus Comp. Longbow.
Bonus Warmage Spells: Tensers Disk, Leomunds Tiny Hut.
Stat increases to Cha.
Has Headbant Int+4, Gauntlets Dex +4, Cloak Cha +4. Wand Hunter's Mercy

BAB +11
Wpn: +1 Mighty+1/Holy/Spellstoring Comp. Longbow

He's got Truestrike, Accuracy, Flaming Arrows, etc.

Combat - either opens up with Leomunds Hut (We can see out - they can't see in), then shoots, or uses wand, then attacks next round for crit with stored Scorching Ray. (24D6+14). Of course he's already cast Flaming Arrows for extra D6+7 dam.

I know he's also got his Warmage options....

What do people think?

Cheers
Paul H

[AstralFire]

On the downside, he's a half-elf. On the upside, he is an Eldritch Knight (decent PrC) and is not an Arcane Archer.

That inherently makes it a billion times better.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yeah - was thinking of a Human, but thought the Half-Elf's eyesight was better for roleplaying.

Another player is sorting out a 14th lvl pure Sorceror for Thurs - thought I'd show him this and ask how his BAB, HP, AC, & spell damage compare!

(If in doubt - Disintegrate)!

Cheers
Paul H

[AstralFire]

Fighter would be a better choice than Ranger. Also, you're losing two caster levels... the Sorcerer should do better.

[Paul H]

Hi

Ftr was my original choice for the extra feat, but Hunter's Mercy for auto crit on hit is awesome.

That player also has had problems with HP recently. Last week his character intro'd himself, then died in first rnd of combat to an Octopus Tree. He really likes playing offensive characters, & Warmage/EK gives better HP & AC.

Think Imp Crit (Comp Longbow) is better than PS Warmage, so feats:
PBS, Precise Shot, Extra Edge, Rapid Shot, Imp Crit (Comp Longbow), with Wpn Focus as EK bonus feat.

As Ftr I'd take either Imp Toughness or Sudden Empower Spell as the extra feat.

Cheers
Paul H

[Temp.]

On the downside, he's a half-elf. On the upside, he is an Eldritch Knight (decent PrC) and is not an Arcane Archer.

But on the down-side, he's a Warmage...

With the sources available, I think I'd prefer a Spellthief build. Sneak attack will make your ranged attacks more meaningful, the spellcasting will better suit gish-style combat than the Warmage list and stolen spells will be useful in most combats.

At very least, go Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. With the Spell Compendium available, there is no reason to turn down Moonbow, Ray of Stupidity and the like for Warmage casting.

The approach that will probably be the most effective is going to be straight caster, maybe using elf as a race for the sake of bow use at low levels. If you refluff your spellcasting to take the form of magic arrows that you shoot from your bow, there's little in-game difference from what the Arcane Archer should have been.
I used this for a character a while ago, writing "Magic Marksman" across the class line of my character sheet instead of "Sorcerer." My group was irritated that the DM would allow me to use such a clearly broken homebrew class in their game.

[monty]

My group was irritated that the DM would allow me to use such a clearly broken homebrew class in their game.

Imagine if you had used a "homebrew" wizard. Or worse, a druid.

[Cainen]

You missed what's pretty much calling your character's name by one book. You really can't bother the DM to allow the Abjurant Champion, can you?

[Tsotha-lanti]

What's the feat in PHB2 - Smiting Spell? It replaces the entire Arcane Archer PrC, pretty much. Give your archer-gish that one.

[Temp.]

What's the feat in PHB2 - Smiting Spell? It replaces the entire Arcane Archer PrC, pretty much. Give your archer-gish that one.

Smiting Spell only lasts one minute and only delivers Touch Spells, making it a serious pain in the ass in my experience. Unless you consistantly find yourself with time to prepare, spells to spare, the ability to release all of the arrows in a single round and the coordination to not overshoot the tight time requirement, it's better to just use rays and Spell-Storing arrows.

Also, PHB2 is out.

[Eldariel]

Although Arcane Archer with Smiting Spell is even better. I personally prefer Sublime Chords for that to gain a decent progression throughout. Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3 is very solid.

EDIT: And yes, Bard 1/Battle Sorcerer 6/X 1/AA2/Sublime Chord 2/AC 5/Sacred Exorcist works as long as you've got fractional BAB and X 1 has at least medium BAB. I just prefer Inspire Courage +2 and generally like Bardic Music.

[Zeful]

Complete Warrior, Arcane strike. Eldiritch Knight doesn't give spells known so you have high level spell slots with nothing to use them on.

Personally I'd go for Fighter1/Sorc6/ElK 7 and pick up Greater magic weapon, extend it every morning and your golden with a +4 bow. You'd could pick up another feat maybe

You could also try talking to the DM about Knowstones, Dragon #331(I think). They're simply Pearls of Power that give Sorcerers (or other spontaneous casters) some Spells Known.They cost the same as a Pearl of Power of the same level (plus any material/XP costs like scrolls), so a Knowstone of Fireball costs the same as a 3rd level Pearl of Power. If you can you can go for PaO later to make anyone's weapon (including your own) something else should they need it.

Also you can't have spell storing on a bow. It doesn't impart it's ability on it's ammunition.

[Temp.]

Complete Warrior, Arcane strike. Eldiritch Knight doesn't give spells known so you have high level spell slots with nothing to use them on.

1. Arcane Strike doesn't work with ranged weapons.
2. Eldritch Knight isn't a very good class for an Archer; it doesn't provide a damage source for arrows. Arcane Trickster is almost always a better option.

That's interesting about the spells known. I hadn't noticed that before. I wonder if the Errata addresses it...

[Zeful]

Well darn, I always thought it did.

As for the Eldritch knight, no the ettera doesn't give spells known (to my knowledge).

[Temp.]

I guess it's strictly a Wizard class then.

But now I feel the urge to search through all my files to make sure other classes I had assumed granted spells known actually do so.

[edit:] My Trickster! Noooooo!

...Sorta funny that Mystic Theurges suck even more than I ever suspected, though.

[Starsinger]

I used this for a character a while ago, writing "Magic Marksman" across the class line of my character sheet instead of "Sorcerer." My group was irritated that the DM would allow me to use such a clearly broken homebrew class in their game.

Imagine if you had used a "homebrew" wizard. Or worse, a druid.

This is actually an interesting experiment. Would people kvetch about class imbalance if they assumed OverPowered McDruid/McWizard/McNuggets whatever, over there was a homebrew class?

[Eldariel]

Well darn, I always thought it did.

As for the Eldritch knight, no the ettera doesn't give spells known (to my knowledge).

Arcane Strike is precisely why archers need Abjurant Champion - it has an ability that does work with ranged weapons (albeit costs a Swift Action to use). Also, Arcane Archery isn't such a bad idea thanks to Flame Arrow giving a free Flaming for you, and a bunch of spells still boosting your attacks (and Bites and all that). Not to mention, nothing's quite as fun as shooting people with Anti-Magic Fields (for added fun, make it a Ranged Pin and nail that puny Wizard to a tree with Anti-Magic Field on him - might as well toss a Dispel along too) and Maws of Chaos. Also, Enervating someone from 1000' away (with Smiting Spell) is just gold.

[Temp.]

And yes, Bard 1/Battle Sorcerer 6/X 1/AA2/Sublime Chord 2/AC 5/Sacred Exorcist works as long as you've got fractional BAB and X 1 has at least medium BAB. I just prefer Inspire Courage +2 and generally like Bardic Music.

Good luck with those skills...

Enervating someone from 1000' away (with Smiting Spell) is just gold.

Just to nitpick and voice my disgust with that feat, Smiting Spell doesn't work except on Touch spells. Not spells that require ranged touch attacks, spells with ranges of "Touch."

[Burley]

So, uh... Really quick: Why is he not playing a Warlock?

[Paul H]

Hi

Warmages already know their entire spell list at 1st lvl, so yes - Eldritch Knight works for them. (Since it gives the spell slots).

Spellthief isn't that good because they know so few spells, and can barely cast those. They rely too much on someone else to steal spells from in the first place.

Warmage know all their spells already, and Truestrike, Accuracy, Flaming Arrows are excellent for Archer builds. Add in the Spell-storing Bow, and you've got 12D6+Int fire Damage. (Any element with appropriate Energy Subs. Rod).

As for ED not being a "damage source for arrows" what about spells? Flaming Arrow is one. Could just as well be Acidic Arrow. With Rods Substitution he could even have multiple spells. Eg Flaming Arrwows (Fire), plus F/Arrows (Acid subsituted) for (D6+4 [Fire] + D6+4 [Acid]) bonus damage. Al lasting 2hrs in this build.

Oh - some important facts:
1) We're about to face some sort of Half Elemental (Fire)
2) We're (eventually) going up against a Dracolich, so sneak attack not worth it.....
3) My maths in original post sucked.
On a crit (including Hunter's Mercy example), damage for stored Scorching Ray is 36D6+12
(Assuming he cast it himself).

Thanks
Paul H

[Eldariel]

Good luck with those skills...

Just to nitpick and voice my disgust with that feat, Smiting Spell doesn't work except on Touch spells. Not spells that require ranged touch attacks, spells with ranges of "Touch."

Oh my, Vampiric Touch then.

And the skills can be done. Still, as I said, I much prefer the Bard-build just 'cause I like Inspire Courage +8 (+2 base + Song of the Heart + Badge of Valor x Words of Creation).

[Paul H]

So, uh... Really quick: Why is he not playing a Warlock?

Hi

Errrrm..... Ooops!

Don't know how I forgot that one, but in my defence it does only get one attack/round.

Cheers
Paul H

[Temp.]

Spellthief isn't that good because they know so few spells, and can barely cast those. They rely too much on someone else to steal spells from in the first place.

The intent with Spellthief was to make a playable archer gish. They have a source of damage in their Sneak Attack and a source of basic defense in their limited spellcasting. They aren't the best, but they're easy and consistantly useful.

As for ED not being a "damage source for arrows" what about spells? Flaming Arrow is one. Could just as well be Acidic Arrow. With Rods Substitution he could even have multiple spells. Eg Flaming Arrwows (Fire), plus F/Arrows (Acid subsituted) for (D6+4 [Fire] + D6+4 [Acid]) bonus damage. Al lasting 2hrs in this build.

Flaming Arrow has nothing to do with the Eldritch Knight class. It has to do with the Warmage spell list. Eldritch Knight provides nothing to this build beyond Base Attack and a singular bonus feat. It costs you two levels of spellcasting (EK 1 and Ranger 1), leaving you three levels behind a straight wizard.

The Warmage Spell list has a much weaker selection of blasting spells than the Wizard, especially once you throw Spell Compendium into the mix.

If you're looking for an Archer gish, use Eldariel's Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord build. Use early-level Bard Spells for defense and your bow for early damage. Once you hit Sublime Chord, you'll be able to fully capitalize on Arcane Archer's Channel Spell ability.