[any ed.] Problems with No Set Solution

[chevalier]

Hello,

In a recent thread (I can't find it but I'm sure one of the ninja forumistas will) someone was giving a new DM advice; they said to pose a problem or challenge to which you, as DM, do not have a set solution.

This strikes me as a very good way to stimulate player creativity, and darn good fun, besides, so let me ask:

What are some good ideas for a difficult, almost impossible (but not *necessarily* life-threatening) challenge, in both city and "typical" dungeon settings?

Have fun!

CLW

[Tsotha-lanti]

Er, anything.

Come up with any scenario and let the players find a way to solve it.

Any location protected incredibly well.

Any person who must be persuaded/coerced/tricked into something.

Defeating a really powerful dragon.

Sneaking into a top-security underground installation.

Assassinating a well-protected target.

It seems to me that coming up with the "right" solution is the extra work - you're doing the players' work for them, and then expecting them to somehow follow the logical steps you did (despite lacking the inside view you have) and come to the same conclusion, which happens maybe one time in ten or twenty, in my experience.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I prefer "you're all in prison for a crime you did commit."

[chevalier]

Have the players roll up new characters at 1st level. When they reach for the price list to buy their starting equipment say:

"Actually, you're all in prison for a crime you didn't commit."

And take it from there. I've never done it but I've been on the receiving end. It took us a while to escape and all the DM planned out was a reasonably secure prison.

Flippin' 'eck, I've already done that--I once started a campaign with a barbarian waking up with a hangover with the other PCs as his cellmates; they had to figure out how to get out.

Some other ones I've tried are the "room is filling up with water and the only door is magically locked behind you" and also for low-level characters "important macguffin in a physically inacessible location".

C.

[sonofzeal]

Social situations also work. Here's one I've used...

- PC's Boss, a Thane (noble title granted to people who earned respect in battle, but isn't necessarily hereditary) wants to marry a noble girl to secure a permanent title

- There are only two eligable noble girls within striking distance
--- Princess A has gone missing with no leads (party has no access to Locate Person)
--- Princess B's father says emphatically no.

- Behind the scenes...
--- Princess B's in an affair with a Knight
--- Father B got angry and forbid the union, but regrets it and wants them to marry
--- Father B won't force Princess B to marry someone else while she loves the Knight, but won't admit it either.
--- Princess A is a childhood friend of Mr Knight and is in love but has not had an affair with him.
--- Princess A is now in Feifdom B, secretly following Mr Knight

[Ascension]

and also for low-level characters "important macguffin in a physically inacessible location".

I've been subjected to "important macguffin in the hands of an epic, genocidal advanced Inevitable backed by a council of insane druids" as a fifth level character.

Asking politely didn't work.

[JMobius]

It seems to me that coming up with the "right" solution is the extra work - you're doing the players' work for them, and then expecting them to somehow follow the logical steps you did (despite lacking the inside view you have) and come to the same conclusion, which happens maybe one time in ten or twenty, in my experience.

How very true.

I find not doing such planning to actually be much more rewarding and better for the game. There's no disappointment or troubles to be had, as you weren't counting or dependent on a fixed solution, and oftentimes their creativity is just fun to watch.

[valadil]

I'm all about games with no set solution. I ran a thieves guild game a while back that was almost entirely that sort of puzzle. Without the aid of magic or brute strength (everyone was 14str or less at the time), stealing a couple kegs from an open tavern is a fun challenge. I later meant for the players to steal a grand piano, but I don't think that happened. Aside from steal the cumbersome and shiny object, there were lots of open puzzles along the lines of trick the wary merchant into the dark alleyway. Good times.

As far as dungeon stuff goes, physical barriers work well. Sections of dungeon flooded with water. Broken stairs or ladders. Cave ins. Thinking about this, I really want to run a bridge that pivots around a center point (like a seesaw, but capable of a 360) so that the players have to balance their load to cross it. Then I want to run that bridge in combat.

[Triaxx]

I've found the problem with no set solution is Occam's Razor. Without a set solution, they tend to go after the first thing that jumps to mind. Litterally:

'Before you stands an Adamantine wall, inset into which are four holes, each one of two shapes. At the base of the wall are eight keys, two of each shape, and of eight colors.'

Player 1: What's the hardness for Adamantine?

He hit the wall with his mace. And succeeded. That's why I hate problems without a set solution.

[JMobius]

Errr... that sounds like a puzzle with a pretty specific solution, that the player just cleverly bypassed?

[Fax Celestis]

IOccam's Razor

See also: Occam's Daiklave: "Whatever is most awesome is most likely to be true."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

He hit the wall with his mace. And succeeded. That's why I hate problems without a set solution.

I did something like that once. The door was there, locked, the Rogue couldn't open the lock, and we figured it was trapped anyways. The door was Adamantite. I hit the wall. Mountain Hammer. It broke.

[Tsotha-lanti]

How very true.

I find not doing such planning to actually be much more rewarding and better for the game. There's no disappointment or troubles to be had, as you weren't counting or dependent on a fixed solution, and oftentimes their creativity is just fun to watch.

In fact, thinking on it, coming up with the problem can be unnecessary work. If you're going in this direction anyway, you're probably best of sandboxing the setting (just create as much detail, as many locations, and as many NPCs as you can), and letting the PCs run wild. You pick a few NPCs to focus on, help the players come up with some PC goals, and let them get the ball rolling.

I've found the problem with no set solution is Occam's Razor. Without a set solution, they tend to go after the first thing that jumps to mind. Litterally:

'Before you stands an Adamantine wall, inset into which are four holes, each one of two shapes. At the base of the wall are eight keys, two of each shape, and of eight colors.'

Player 1: What's the hardness for Adamantine?

He hit the wall with his mace. And succeeded. That's why I hate problems without a set solution.

You came up with a problem that was trivial in D&D. That's all your fault. Whether you had a solution in mind is irrelevant - according to the game's silly rules, PCs can and will eventually beat their way through any obstacle.

What did you do next, put up a harder wall and stare in amazement as the wizard cast overland flight?

Seriously, how would having a set solution have helped there?
"No, you can't break it."
"But the rules say..."
"No, can't break it"
That'd have been a great example of railroading.

Whether you have a solution in mind or not is completely irrelevant to what the players are going to try, which is precisely why it's unnecessary extra work to begin with. Having ideas can help - if the PCs' employer wants them to steal an item from a top-secret laboratory, I'll come up with the place and consider ways they might succeed and plans they might try, so that I have some idea what to expect (and so I can plug the more obvious holes; it's a top-secret lab!), but there's no set solution, because that way lie nothing but railroad tracks.

[Hal]

The first adventure I ever ran for some players had them trying to track down a thief who got busted out of prison by some local thugs. My players managed to track him down, and found he was hiding at some little shack in the wilderness.

Inside, a bunch of faceless mooks were plotting their escapades. The guy in question and his guard were hiding in the basement. At this point, the players could have done any number of things: Let the local militia know about the location, burn the place down and grab whoever came out, try to negotiate with the thugs for the guy in the basement . . .

In the end, in classical adventuring party fashion, they busted the doors in and killed everything that moved.

[chiasaur11]

The first adventure I ever ran for some players had them trying to track down a thief who got busted out of prison by some local thugs. My players managed to track him down, and found he was hiding at some little shack in the wilderness.

Inside, a bunch of faceless mooks were plotting their escapades. The guy in question and his guard were hiding in the basement. At this point, the players could have done any number of things: Let the local militia know about the location, burn the place down and grab whoever came out, try to negotiate with the thugs for the guy in the basement . . .

In the end, in classical adventuring party fashion, they busted the doors in and killed everything that moved.

First rule of DnD:
If you kill enough people, whatever your problem is will work out in the end.
(Note: People can be substituted with anything. Including things that aren't technically alive.)

[Prometheus]

Yeah often times you have players who just kill everyone all the time, but I find that having one or two players that think differently (or having that plan fail big time and handful of times) can be a strong influence in PCs coming up with creative solutions.

Here are some examples of creative solutions that happened in my most recent campaign with absolutely no prompting on my part:
Scenario: There is a noblemen who lives in a keep surrounded by guards, and wall, and farmland (draws players a vague map). Because it is wartime (with a third party) they are extra alert. You are after the documents that the noblemen has, potentially close to his person. Also, it is known that he has a mildly powerful unique magic item in his possession.
Party's Solution: Load up a wagon with food and beer and walk right up to the gate, requesting entrance to the courtyard outside the keep. There you sell the besieged drops much needed rations, but earn the skepticism of the lead guard. Throw a party with the rations, convince a lazy drunkard soldier to challenge the lead guard to a fist-fight, call a half-giant friend to "attack" and use his stomp ability to make lots of noise, throw in illusions, and summon a flock of pigeons. In the chaos, slip inside, kill the noblemen and his bodyguard, steal the documents and the magic item, and slip back outside. On the way out they meet back up with their half giant friend and have to kill some guards to get past the wall (fortunately, it opens on their side).
Scenario: You want to a mildly powerful unique magical item from a cult of goblins who worship an evil snake deity. You learn that they really want to steal a dragon's egg.
Party's Solution: Let's not steal the dragon egg as a trade or take the magic item by force. Instead, let's send a message to the dragon and let him do the dirty work. Cut to dragon clawing the goblins out of their cliffside homes and breathing fire into their caves. The dragon smacks the PCs with a wing and a tail on his way out, just to let them know that he acted of his own volition and no human-folk has power over him. PCs walk over the ruins and take the magic item with minimal effort, and even manage to snag a good refugee to travel with them and help.

The point is, all your really need is a) map b) a goal c) the stats of relevant NPCs and monsters & d) something the players don't know beforehand.