[3.5] Help challenging oversized my party.

[Kobold-Bard]

I am the DM (first-timer) of a large D&D group. In total their are nine PC's all level 4. I originally thought this would be ok, but with such a large group they have shown to be capable to overrun what I consider balanced challenges through sheer numbers. So I through a more difficult challenge at them and they get smashed to pieces (seemingly disproportionate to their earlier success, with similar rolling. Its kinda wierd)

I am at a loss for how to effectively create challenges for them. The DMG says that its ECL's are suitable for a party of 4, so do I just double the amount of enemies, or will this leave me over or under powered?

There is no way for me to split the group.

The PC's are:
1. A Catfolk Dragon Shaman (Black)
2. A Human Monk
3. A Tiefling Swashbuckler
4. An Elven Ranger
5. A Human Archivist
6. An Elven Druid
7. A Human Sorcerer
8. A Human Wizard (Conjuration)
9. A Human Ninja.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[kamikasei]

Your best bet is to increase the number of enemies rather than increasing the strength of the individual creatures. This forces the party to split their attention and prevents them from gaining a huge edge in available actions in combat.

[SoD]

Can we get any more information on the PC's? How optimised are they? Looking at them, they don't seem to be hugely optimised...what with the monk...and the swashbuckler...then again, I could be wrong. Generally, doubling the amount of creatures should be effective, but watch out: assuming your sorcerer is a blaster, once he has fireball, that can mean that he kills more in one hit.

[erikun]

It looks like your party should be able to handle a CR 8 fight. And by "CR 8", I mean CR 4 x4, not an individual CR 8 monster.

Level 5 is a funny level. It's the level that wizards get big AOE like Fireball, it's the level that clerics and druids get better healing, it's the level that fighters... heck, who am I kidding? Fighters just get another feat.

What I'm trying to say is: don't throw a single monster at them. CR 8 will have absurdly high defenses compared to a single CR 4, including AC that makes rogues worthless, saves that make a blaster wizard useless, and likely DR/magic that make the fighters useless. You're better off using a larger number of enemies closer in power level. I'd actually start with four CR 3 critters, or three CR 4, and up it from there.

[Kobold-Bard]

Thanks all, sounds like good advise.

And there is all but no optimisation because around half have never played before, and I have only character who is likely to try and power game (the Archivist). Most picked their characters purely on what they liked the sound of (the swashbuckler has a Charisma of 17 because she wanted to play Jack Sparrow)

[bosssmiley]

Big parties - fun, but unwieldy.

1. A Catfolk Dragon Shaman (Black)
2. A Human Monk
3. A Tiefling Swashbuckler
4. An Elven Ranger
5. A Human Archivist
6. An Elven Druid
7. A Human Sorcerer
8. A Human Wizard (Conjuration)
9. A Human Ninja.

Most bases seem pretty much covered. I presume the Dragon Shaman, Archivist & Druid have healing duties, the Monk, Ranger and Ninja do the sneak stuff, etc. 4 full casters!

Possible solutions:

1. Split the group in two and run two parallel games.
2. Split the party entirely in two and run parallel plot-lines in the same story.
3. Keep the party as-is, and plough through the game en masse like an unstoppable tide of Rayman rabbits.
4. Keep the party as-is, but use X-Men style sub-teams of 3 or so to ensure that each players gets little limelight time.

You biggest possible problem will probably be EL/CR juggling. Each doubling of numbers on one side or the other generally represents a +/-2 to CR/EL. This means you can either double the number of CR-appropriate creatures in an encounter, or throw in monsters of CR+2, and still have them be average risk encounters.

Simply because of the number of actions they can throw out per round, this party of 9 level 4 characters should easily be equal to fighting EL6-7 encounters. I wouldn't recommend throwing these (relatively low-level) characters up against CR8 creatures straight away. They simply won't have the raw numbers and/or kit to resist a lot of the effects that are thrown around by something 4CR above one of them. A lot of CR8s (especially from the codex creep-affected later MMs) can - and often will - one-shot a level 4 character. Caveat DM.

Of course, keeping the party whole reduces everyone's limelight time and makes a little more work for the DM; but the image of nigh-on a dozen heroes swarming any CR6-7 you care to name and fighting scads of CR-equal monsters is a fun one. Just rotate new characters into the front-line as people get injured and - as GM - make sure your combat condition-tracking system is up to snuff.

[JBento]

Level 5 is a funny level. It's the level that wizards get big AOE like Fireball, it's the level that clerics and druids get better healing, it's the level that fighters... heck, who am I kidding? Fighters just get another feat.

You mean it's the level that Fighter DON'T even get another feat, right?

[Ethdred]

Remember - don't split the party!!

For combats, if you're worried about the right number of critters to use, start with a reasonable number for a 'normal' party, but have reinforcements near by. Then you can feed them into the fight if things look too easy, but hold them back if things are too hard. And since only you know what you've got written on your notes, you can decide on the fly to alter the numbers or have them come in two waves. Of course this means your combats will last much longer, so don't plan for too many of them in one session.

You can also use bigger monsters, just be careful not to have ones with the sort of abilities mentioned by erikun. I like using humanoid/giant types - if in doubt give them a level or two of fighter or barbarian just to up the HP and make them a bit more scary.

Another option is to give the bad guys some sort of terrain or situational advantage (a decent ambush or some fortifications can addd a couple of CR on their own).

[Keld Denar]

Another option, if you can swing it, is the see if one of the players will volunteer to co-DM. This reduces the party size to 8, and gives you another hand for running monsters, tracking status effects and ongoing spells, etc. The co-DM can also help RP important NPCs, especially if the PCs are interacting with more than one NPC at a time.

This also may help indoctrinate one of the newer players into the scope and sceme of the role of DM, which might allow you to rotate in as a player at a future date. DMing is fun, but sometimes you just want to sit back and roast some gobos!

[valadil]

I think you should use terrain to make it difficult for the party to use their numbers effectively. You don't want to prevent anyone from getting a turn in combat, but you do want them to fight on several fronts so they can't overwhelm as well.

For instance, if they're in a dungeon put the fights in the halls instead of in a big room. Let's say you have a hallway with a delayed pit trap. The group is marching 2x4 with a straggler (or maybe 1x9 but it still works). Trap goes off in the middle of them due to the delay on the pit (or because it needs a certain amount of weight, explain this however you like). Enemies are summoned on either side of the remaining PCs. Now you have players fighting two groups of enemies with a barrier in the middle. Some players may not be able to get to the enemies so they'll help the others out of the pit. With some skill checks players can make it across to the other side, but for the most part they'll be divided into two smaller groups.

Once they get higher level you can start using magical battlefield control. When your NPC casters are level 5 and 6, stinking cloud will be useful for scultping the battlefield as needed. After that you can start using wall spells to hold off half the party. Getting rid of the wall to free 3-4 companions will be as worthy a task as hitting the enemy, so in addition to blocking off a few players you'll also be giving the characters in the fight something else to do.

[Prometheus]

When you have to have a fight with a solo bad guy, give him extra HP, AC, SR, energy resistance, saves, and DR. He will still be a threat if he focuses on anyone player, but he will last long enough to make the fight interesting. Alternatively, give him battlefield control spells.

[Kaiyanwang]

Since they are not optimized, try increase the number of enemies.

Advantage: amusing multiple combats

Disavantage: game slows.

Don't split the party, always to keep the game haste. Instead, split the party only temporary using the terrain to increase the fun situations (like cliffs, tearrain fractures, floods, and so on).

Good luck. I DMed an epic campaign with 11 players in the last part. Needed coffee. A lot of coffee. Intravenously.

[CthulhuM]

I'd shoot for a bit higher than CR 8, if you actually want to put them in any danger. A single CR 4 might be a tough challenge for a single level 4 player, but that's about it - 4 of them versus 9 PCs will be just about as one-sided as it sounds. Trying sending in 6 CR 4s, or 4 CR 6s... that'll keep them on their toes.

Alternatively, if you do want to send in a single large monster, I would recommend using an large hit die advanced animal of some sort. Hit die advanced creatures tend to have disproportionately high hit points, without dealing tons of damage, so you'll be able to create a monster that can survive the party's attacks for a while without it being so powerful that it's insta-gibbing people with its full attacks.

[Animefunkmaster]

I have DMed multiple large groups before, 13+ people. There major disadvantage is it slows the player to dm time, which slows down play. A strategy I generally employ is giving the pcs a broad goal, and see how they will complete it.

In the case of an encounter, why not make a mini fortress, or stronghold as a long term enemy. Sheer numbers won't work as they outnumber the PCs, but clever tactics will give them the upper hand (do things that limit the amount of time they have to plan, can't have the campaign turn into a year long endeavor per challenge). Follow relative challenge rating (in your case CR3-4, lightly sprinkle a cr5 maybe add a 6 or two, and a dash of cr 1 or lower to add scenery in a combat), but don't follow any sort of number of enemies per encounter. The PCs should be able to pick the fight in this situation, with the enemy ambushing them here and there (maybe).

This will alloy multiple tactics conversations to come up while you focus on specific actions, such as stealths/diplomacy/paying for information. Have the party get ready for combat with there actions, and performing actions and rolls (honor system) when it isn't there turn. That will speed things up. Present the enemy as a puzzle and just see where it goes.

Note: this can be done with a large monster as well, I pitted 15 PCs against 1 young adult dragon (forgot the color). This stimulated tons of town actions and stealth and intrigue even before initiative was rolled.

Oh, and with a group that large, add traps. Seriously.

Edit: One thing to note: with large numbers of PCs it is quantity of enemies, not quality. Just make sure the enemies aren't carbon copies of themselves.

[Stupendous_Man]

That Damn Crab

[Mushroom Ninja]

I am the DM (first-timer) of a large D&D group. In total their are nine PC's all level 4. I originally thought this would be ok, but with such a large group they have shown to be capable to overrun what I consider balanced challenges through sheer numbers. So I through a more difficult challenge at them and they get smashed to pieces (seemingly disproportionate to their earlier success, with similar rolling. Its kinda wierd)

I am at a loss for how to effectively create challenges for them. The DMG says that its ECL's are suitable for a party of 4, so do I just double the amount of enemies, or will this leave me over or under powered?

There is no way for me to split the group.

The PC's are:
1. A Catfolk Dragon Shaman (Black)
2. A Human Monk
3. A Tiefling Swashbuckler
4. An Elven Ranger
5. A Human Archivist
6. An Elven Druid
7. A Human Sorcerer
8. A Human Wizard (Conjuration)
9. A Human Ninja.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Ooh... I pitty you. I've got an 8-man Star Wars Saga Edition group and that can be a real hassle.

My 2 cp on Large Groups:
- Assume everything will take much longer than you think it will
- Occasionally you may want to prod the pcs' planning sessions in the right direction (or at least foreward) as, with this many people, deciding how to storm a dungeon can take a very long time.
- Encourage everybody to plan out what their character will do in combat while everyone else is going -- it'll speed up things emmensly.
- If you decide to send them against many opponents, be very organized. With 9 PCs and 9+ NPCs, combat can slow to a crawl

[valadil]

- Encourage everybody to plan out what their character will do in combat while everyone else is going -- it'll speed up things emmensly.

I heartily recommend calling out whose on deck when you call initiative. With so many players, each PC will zone out during everyone elses turn. You don't want to spend time evaluating the battle each time a PC's turn comes up. Queue them so they can evaluate while you resolve the person ahead of them.

[Fax Celestis]

That Damn Crab

Well, it'd cut down on party size...

[Zeta Kai]

I'm surprised that few have mentioned this (Valadil was the closest), but your main problem is that your PCs can surround & pummel anything that you throw at them. So, logically, the obvious fix is to eliminate that advantage.

Take your party into a dungeon. Even with 10' wide corridors, they can only fight with 2 PCs, side by side. You can even flank them at the rear, & then force the 4 guys in the middle to do almost nothing. Ogre, golems, & even kobolds can take them on then. You can even up the ante with traps (kobold specialty) & cave-ins.

As long as you limit their movements, the party is always at a disadvantage.

[Epinephrine]

Edit:

As long as you limit their movements, the party is always at a disadvantage.

What he said... ^^^

The problem with just doubling the numbers is in part initiative related.

Lets say that a given enemy is a potential challenge, but focused fire by the party of four tends to drop him in ~2 rounds. He is potentially a danger if he wins initiative/surprise, as he can have as many as three rounds in which he can act (2 full, 1 standard), and he'll get an action off potentially even if surprised, with a bit of luck. So anywhere from a bit dangerous to a pushover, as he could have 0 to 3 actions to hurt people.

Double the number of players and enemies. Now, if the badguys play smart and win initiative, they can get 2 full round and 2 standard actions in before the players can even act. The players may be able to focus fire enough to drop one of the two in that next round, so the badguys get only about 3 full rounds and 2 standards as a maximum. That's not twice the actions, and those 5 actions might even have to be split between two players, in which case the badguys are far less deadly than they were. If the players win, they can still wipe the floor with the badguy, but even without surprise they can drop one badguy just on initiative, by focusing 8 players on 1.

To keep the challenge level up, you need to prevent everyone acting together, you need to have goons/terrain blocking easy access to the big badguy to prevent pile-ons. It's tricky - if you can essentially turn it into two smaller battles at the same time, you're getting there. Attacks coming from different directions, aushes with some on either side of a road, a ways back, and some spikes/pits to make getting to them hard. Now the party can't easily get everyone concentrating their attacks most effectively, and they may have to slit in two directions, or put up with more rounds of assault from one side than the other. Non-threatened ambushers (if the party all goes after one line) can pick their targets, and are far more likely to all fire at a single weak target, while the opponents on the charged side may break, forcing players to run around getting shot at.

Control the encounter and you can control the difficulty. We had an encounter in the woods a few sessions ago, against goblins. Small force, we easily began wiping them, and chased some down who tried to flee. Then got engaged by their second wave, from another direction. And then as we reponded to that, the bugbear druid we didn't know about entangled the stragglers, who were now cut off from the first group. We're not even dumb, but you get all excited, and even splitting up by a movement or two can be a big deal if the terrain suddenly changes and PCs are isolated.

[Triaxx]

See that number? That's nothing. I've run 20-man sessions. The best thing there was to split into 5, 4 member groups, run the campaign, then gather back up for the final... war.

---

Drop the CR of the fights. Go down to CR2, and remember that a CR2 monster is NOT half as strong as a CR4 monster. Three CR2 monsters are generally required to add up to a CR4. You're about to run into Fireball. It's quite the stumbling block if you're not expecting it. Use large numbers of low CR, fire immune monsters. Hopefully the wizard will expect that after a couple times, and stop using fireball.

Unless the players are smart and combine Web with Fireball. *mutters about smart ass elves*

---

Are you in a dungeon? Get out of it. Throw massively over strong challenges at them so they decide to leave. Add another level and warn them that the later levels are listed for a level 10-12 party. Plan it out well, because if you do get them to leave, they'll want to come back. Anyway, chase them out if you are, collapse it if you have to.

Now send them a messenger. Celestial, guy on a horse, up to you. Send them to a city. Now build yourself a large group of bandits. Not just a bunch of schmoes with swords, but an organization with rogues, Ninja, wizards, Clerics and one bad-ass to lead them all. Set each group of enemies, to a specific set of levels and throw them at the players when they are that level. Or approaching it. Make those the level-up fights. When you're facing tactics that are very similar to yours, you have to think tactically, not just 'Bowl them over with superior numbers.'.

[streakster]

I agree with Zeta. Tucker's Kobolds will wipe the floor with these people.

Another idea would be an evil opposite party. That's sure to be a challenge, and fun to boot.

[Another_Poet]

I agree with the above advice, especially Kamikasei and CthulhuM.

In addition I have two metagame suggestions that will help.

A) Adjust

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Some would call it "fudging", I call it "balance". Since it's hard tp predict what a monster will do to an extra-large party, adjust on the spot. If you meant for something to be a challenge and they take it down to 10% of its hits before the first round is over, just double its hp. Vice-versa, if your monsters turn out to be way too strong just cross out a few of their SLA's or whatever.

If you or your players think this sounds shady, then don't be shady about it. Tell them before next session, "Guys, I've had a really hard time balancing encounters for the group. I think I have good encounters for today, but if they turn out to be boringly easy or possible TPK's I'm gonna tweak their numbers and abilities on the spot. I'll do this for a few weaks till I have a better sense of balance and then phase it out." See? The kinder, gentler form of fudging.

However, never add or negate criticals as part of "adjusting". That just leaves hard feelings.

B) Item tracking

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I've found that inventory becomes a bigger problem with large groups. You have one, two or all three of the problems below crop up every session.

1) Replication. "Okay, I'll give two of my CMW potions to Frank then. Got that Frank?" Somehow they get written down on Frank's sheet, but not erased on the other guy's sheet. There's too much going on, and this happens by accident.

2) Uberward Spiral. "Okay, so I'll activate my boots of haste again and attack..." Again usually by accident, players misremember what various magic items do. Invariably they misremember in their own favour, gaining larger bonuses, more times per day, longer durations and bigger damage dice.

3) DM Vending Machine syndrom. "Okay guys, I don't want to go through Detect Magic and spellcraft checks on 9 items so I'm just gonna tell you what they are." No, no, no. In its own way this instantaneous and paranoia-free usage of magic items increases the PCs' power curve.

My solution: Index cards. Cut 'em in half and write magic items on them. Gain a magic item? DM hands you a card. Use a (consumable) magic item? Give back the card. Give an item to a friend? Give the card to the friend. Most importantly: lose a card, lose the item.

A sample card might say, "#0034. Potion. Rust-red colour."

On the list in the DM's notes #0034 says, "Potion of Hide from Animals. Faint (whatever) aura. Identify w/ craft alch DC (whatever). CL 7."

Hand the players the card. If they identify it, the DM tells them the relevant information and they write it on the card. Or if they don't identify it for 8 more sessions it's still easy for the DM to look up. Plus, they actually hand it to the DM when they use it so there's no confusion about what it does, how many rounds it lasts, or anything else. It's all right there for everyone to see.

Just suggestions.

ap

[PnP Fan]

I regularly game with a group of 6 or 7 players. This is what I do:

1. Calculate the Party EL as if they were a group of Monsters.
2. Build my encounters as if I were targeting that EL, keeping in mind that any individual villain (generally) shouldn't be more than a level or two higher than the highest level player.
3. If I need a higher level villain ( +3 or 4 levels for a BBEG, for example), I try keeping the main villain away from wizards or sorcerers (and druids, come to think of it) to keep from totally overpowering the PCs. A few extra hp and feats and Bab isn't that big of a deal, compared to the ability to kill several members of the party in one round.

Usually this will result in a large number of villains that are fightable by the good guys, and it'll be fairly well balanced. Slightly in your favor, but not by much. It also will force your players to think tactically (grease/web those guys over there, while everyone dogpiles this group). But try and avoid thinking too tactically yourself. With that many villains at your disposal, if they dogpile one PC, you're guaranteed to start killing off PCs quickly.

[EvilElitest]

well it is worth noting that there is a perfectly good thread on Tucker's Kolbods if you get my meaning.........hint hint hint
from
EE

[KillianHawkeye]

I am in a similar situation and I'll tell you what works for me:

First, adding a few extra enemies is a good idea, but I also recommend giving all of them above average hit points. I would say to add an additional 20-50% to the monster's listed (average) hp. Also, all of my Boss monsters have the maximum hp for their hit dice.

Second, take some time to plan your combat strategies. Whenever possible, use better tactics than the PCs. Avoid low-Intelligence monsters unless they're being commanded by someone smarter or they have a huge terrain advantage that even they know how to exploit.

[Hiisi]

They have a batman. There's nothing you can do.

[Jack_Simth]

Level 5 is a funny level. It's the level that wizards get big AOE like Fireball, it's the level that clerics and druids get better healing, it's the level that fighters... heck, who am I kidding? Fighters just get another feat.

Fighter's don't get another feat at 5th level. 4th, yes; 6th, yes; 5th, not normally.

[Triaxx]

Except those that one level dipped into Barbarian at three for the 10' speed enhancement so that the bonus is bumped to five and six.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Except those that one level dipped into Barbarian at three for the 10' speed enhancement so that the bonus is bumped to five and six.

Speed isn't important. Barb dips for Rage and Pounce are where it's at.