OOTS #603 - The Discussion Thread

[KageSama]

The trouble is, I can picture the scene between Belkar and the Cleric:

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Cleric: There you go, the Mark of Justice is gone
Belkar: Are you certain?
Cleric: Absolutely. (goes to cast the sending spell)
Belkar: (Stabbity, stab, stab)
Cleric: (dies)
Belkar: What do you know, he was right. Nice job.
Belkar: (goes to kill something else)

Of course, the poor cleric has no clue to Belkar's past and is probably more afraid of the Thieves Guild than he is of Belkar.

Wrong conclusion

[R.O.A.]

I
Also, WIN. Greysky City isn't really a very nice place, but when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND goes up against the ENITRE Thieve's Guild, you have a battle that the bards will sing about for years.

Maybe Elan will write it.

uh...best archer? What gave you the impression she was anything more then average?

[linkhyrule5]

A) See the comment about fighting Crystal
B) Cause she just killed someone in about two seconds.

[hamishspence]

Origin:
Haley: "Do you have any ranks in Sense Motive?"
Roy: "No."
Haley: "I am the world finest archer."

Which suggests that she exaggerates her archery skill. Though as a high level archer specialist, she's bound to be better than most.

[The_Firenail]

It was a little earlier than I expected, I thought that he'd release it tommorow or Saturday at the latest, but I see that his (horrible) sence of humor hasn't changed.

[DougTheHead]

I'm also thinking that Belkar's going to convince the cleric to remove the Mark of Justice for free, although I think he will choose to kill 20+ rogues with healing help from the cleric, rather than just kill the cleric (although he may do that afterwards anyway)

Once he does, Haley will be mad with him... until he reminds her how much money they just saved.

[Tyrmatt]

uh...best archer? What gave you the impression she was anything more then average?

Mostly because she's a high level archer rogue compared to the general mooks that inhabit thieves guilds in every campaign I've come across. The power of the guild always rests in the assassins and occassionally the guildmaster.

An interesting point here I don't think anyone has mentioned. Pete was "Eagle Eyed" Pete back in the day. A trait for an archer that would be extremely valuable. And he's about to have his eyes restored. So logically a smart choice would be to help Haley murder the guild in order to prevent Bozzok ever deciding to reblind him just for kicks. Not too sure of Haley's backstory in terms of who trained her but I think it would be a fair bet that Pete had a hand in her training.

[Manoftyr]

Or he just dies in the battle against the guild.

This is a likely outcome, in my opinion. Haley gets beaten but not killed, Celia gets away. The guild breaks in the room, the cleric heals Belkar to have a weapon ready, but Belkar kills him and wreaks havoc among the thieves, but fails ultimately and dies before Celia performs a deus ex machina or something.

Simon

That's more or less what I see happening as well.

[David Argall]

when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND

Haley is a decent archer for her level. Against mooks, she can have a lot of fun. But she is only +9/+4 to hit. Give her 18 DX just to be generous and she is still only +13/+8. She is only a match for the average fighter of her level. An arcane archer is +20/+15/+10 at 13th. & we can figure there are a few around of higher level.

Outsider can't be raised with raise dead, that is correct.However that's only because that is the least powerfull spell to bring back the dead. The most powerfull variant (True Ressurection) can also raise outsiders.

If TS is too highlevel to obtain there is also a lower level spell called Raise Outsider which works just like Raise Dead only that it raises outsiders

Casters are somewhat limited to core spells in OOTS. That's not a hard and fast rule [what is?], but Celia would be rash to assume any caster has access to it. And as noted 17th level casters are rare at best, so Celia had better figure that if she dies here, that's it for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamech
Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?

More likely called. Summoned she would have vanished days ago, but called she stays forever (until she leaves or is called to somewhere else)

All the strip references seems to say summoned. However, this seems to be a case where plot needs overcome the rules, so any statement had better include at least one "probably" in it.

You'd think she would assume either that the cause was that Roy's body had gotten too far away at some point, or that the Oracle had used his powers to determine the code word.

There would be enough doubt to get Belkar off in a criminal case, but we have seen Belkar in action. What are the odds that he would ever get a mile away from the body? Or that Roy would say the magic word? That he somehow managed to kill somebody in something that somehow qualified as a town seems really likely in comparison. [/quote]
Now curing him still seems like the best short term idea. Haley is not going to be able to survive this fight on her own. Belkar does give her a faint hope of being able to fight her way out.
However, it is a faint hope. With or without Belkar, she can hold the enemy off for a time, but eventually sheer numbers will take her out. Her apparent idea is to die and be raised by Durkon. And Belkar is not important for that.

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I still like the idea of Pete having put in an escape hatch, and opening that for them before he heads off to the temple.

I'm kind of guessing/hoping that Belkar is going to need to be healed to help in this fight. I doubt his death is nigh, however, because the Oracle said "within an (in comic) year",

He said "within the year", and gives us the aside this is in comic time. This seems to mean Belkar had only about 4 months left, but that won't end until at least January our time.

and as far as I can tell it has only been about a week (assuming they didn't travel far between the Oracle and Greysky).

573 says it was about a week from Oracle to Greysky. So we have a total of 2-3 weeks. Still not a huge portion of 4 months, and so the odds do favor Belkar surviving this situation, but...

Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight.

It's a bit of a DM call here. In theory, any time you are not expecting the attack, the rogue can get sneak attack damage. However, it is assumed that in any battle situation you are expecting attack by the rogue, who thus gets no extra dice of damage. Now the most common rule here would be that Haley's victim had seen her, knows who she is and her hostile nature, and thus Haley would not get a surprise round, and since they talk, initiative had been rolled earlier and both had taken actions, negating any sneak damage.
However, it is not entirely unreasonable to rule her foe was not prepared for the immediate attack and thus was vulnerable to losing initiative, and thus sneak damage. If you are talking peacefully to somebody and he suddenly draws a gun and shoots you, we are comfortable with the idea this is attack with surprise. We just know that a lot of the time, we would have spotted the gun or known the guy was dangerous and would have already been ready to act.

No matter, Haley has Many Shot

Many Shot is a lousy feat for the circumstances. Playing with those hobgoblins, it was useful in letting her run around. Here, she must pretty much just stand in one place, making the feat just a negative to her chance to hit.

[arch]

Nice touch, keeping the Sending message to 25 words exactly.

Let's just hope the cleric doesn't expand ASAP into its four words. Poor Elan!

[Kilbia]

2. Celia's useless in this fight. She can blast lightning, but what good is that against a group of targets with Evasion? Anyone it threatens is no threat to Haley anyways.

I disagree. Each NPC in the fight is another chance for a natural 20. Remember O-Chul's speech to Haley before the big battle in Azure City.

ETA: Normal Evasion only means that you take no damage if you save. It's still full damage if you fail the Reflex save. As my poor Cybele found out after she rolled a 2. :(

[Ragn Charran]

I disagree. Each NPC in the fight is another chance for a natural 20. Remember O-Chul's speech to Haley before the big battle in Azure City.

ETA: Normal Evasion only means that you take no damage if you save. It's still full damage if you fail the Reflex save. As my poor Cybele found out after she rolled a 2. :(

Well, we're talking a few dozen, not thousands like the big war, so I didn't bring the natural 20 on attacks and natural 1 on saves into it.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Can't Celia just "unsummon" herself out of trouble? Hinjo sent Argent back when he was poisoned, but can resummon Argent the next day.

That's two things I've been confused about in today's action packed strip...

The other thing is why did they draw a picture of Durkon BEFORE telling the Priest of Loki to cast Sending...

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, Vibe. The Marvel's Victor rip-off. Or the one Victor ripped off. Or... but really, who cares?

Which Victor would be that? Surely not Victor Mancha from the Runaways? They are about twenty years apart in creation and even further away conceptually, after all.

And I liked Vibe, at least in his final story. JLDetroit has a far worse rep than it deserves, more so when contrasted with the JL(I) that was its immediate successor.

[LuisDantas]

I'm hoping Durkon didn't take more ranks in knowledge religion, as he might ignore a cleric of Loki giving that spell. :P

Hey, cool Char Aznable avatar :)

Durkon certainly knows about Loki's enmity to Thor. It's probably in Northern Clerical Studies 101, if not common knowledge among Northen laity.

But he is not about to turn his back to any reasonable clue of Haley's whereabouts, either.

[LuisDantas]

That's two things I've been confused about in today's action packed strip...

The other thing is why did they draw a picture of Durkon BEFORE telling the Priest of Loki to cast Sending...

Check #602 again. The last panel where we see Celia is the one where she gets the chalk to begin to draw that picture. She drew it off-panel at the trailing end of #602 and early panels of #603.

[horngeek]

I think that the party will 'borrow' a caster to teleport there. Bonus points if V catches the message somehow (plot) and comes in and destroys the entire Theive's Guild.

[nleseul]

Durkon certainly knows about Loki's enmity to Thor. It's probably in Northern Clerical Studies 101, if not common knowledge among Northen laity.

Does he? Does he really?

[Charmy]

Haley is a decent archer for her level. Against mooks, she can have a lot of fun. But she is only +9/+4 to hit. Give her 18 DX just to be generous and she is still only +13/+8. She is only a match for the average fighter of her level. An arcane archer is +20/+15/+10 at 13th. & we can figure there are a few around of higher level.

Actually if you'll check the Class and Level Geekery thread, there is pretty compelling evidence that Haley's dex is actually closer to 20+ (Giant pretty much admitted that in one post by saying that even in an anti-magic field she probably has a +5 dex bonus). That means a +14/+9 assuming 13th level and barring any enchanted bracers/bow/arrows/etc.

I do agree that Haley isn't very well optimized for an archer.. but thankfully the OoTS world is pretty anti-munchkin in general

[Yendor]

But he is not about to turn his back to any reasonable clue of Haley's whereabouts, either.

First thing to do would be to scry on Celia to see if the story checks out. Even if Haley and Belkar don't show up, he can still deduce that they're there.

[lordofthe_wog]

The arrow in the last panel is a lighter green then the other two. WHAT COULD IT BE?

Probably nothing and I'm being an idiot.

[Cybaster]

Haley probably has a few Ranger levels hidden in there for the Archery Combat Style...and Favored Enemy: Douchebags as a result.

[Alaska Fan]

Now the only fumble that could happen is that, that Celia's drawing of Durkon isn't good enough to make the Sending spell work. Though unlikely, considering how much time we were forced to wait for this moment.

Old Pete told Haley that the hidey-hole was scry/spy/detect proof. Does that just work one way, or is the Loki cleric going to be unable to reach Durkon?

[Lokasenna]

Old Pete told Haley that the hidey-hole was scry/spy/detect proof. Does that just work one way, or is the Loki cleric going to be unable to reach Durkon?

It might work with like the Cloister spell: You can't get into it through magical means from the outside to the inside, but you can scry from the inside to the outside.

[Devonix]

I'm personally glad that they kept up the decision not to cure . Funny character or not he's evil and unpredictable. He's a murderer and not just of monsters and that gnome. Does no one remember the guards in Azure City that he bruttaly killed and then used their blood to taunt miko. He's a sick dog than needs putting down.

[NakedCelt]

I have to admit, #602 - and I didn't want to post this - left me rolling my eyes a bit and wondering "how long will this drag out?"

Now with #603, I feel newly invigorated! This comic just KICKED ASS. I *loved* Haley's quickly-made-up plan, I loved her taking charge and the thoughtful way she implemented the plan. I loved her moment of regret over knowing the people she would fight and her quick change of heart about it when it hit her about just how well she really does know these people.

But, all in all, the BEST part is that I see light at the end of the tunnel, and hope that the Order will finally be together again as a group. Perhaps sans V at the moment, but hey! If we can get Roy resurrected, and get Roy/Haley/Belkar/Celia (yeah, I'll include her at this time) back with Elan and Durkon, then I'll call it a win right now!!!

Anyway...great job, Giant. And yeah, I'll include 602 in that compliment, since it set up 603. Which is part of the fun, right?

And yeah...I like the cleric. I hope he's not TOO temporary. If he filled in V's spot on the team for a while, I wouldn't mind it too much. Still, I would love to see V back before too long. In the real world, groups split up and change over time...but this is fiction, and the focus of the story is on this group. I'd rather it be more like the Peanuts with a largely unchanging (possibly expanding) cast of characters. And less like the Justice League, with its rotating cast of changing (and sometimes forgettable; anyone else remember Vibe besides me?) characters.

I'm puzzled why anyone is under the impression that things are going to get "back on track".

It is an iron-clad law of drama that the more you know about a character's plans, the worse things are going to go awry. This is not just a trope -- it's a consequence of the fundamental rule of good writing: Surprise the reader. If we didn't know what the Order's plans were after Roy's death, there could have been a short quest for diamonds or something and Durkon could have cast Resurrection, and Roy would be back and we'd all be duly gratified. But the Giant couldn't really have gone that way, having already established that death-reversing magic is fairly commonplace in this universe.

If you know the characters' plans, and those plans work out exactly as intended, there's no surprise, no dramatic value -- no story, in fact. On the other hand, of course, there's also no dramatic value in seeing a plan go wrong when you didn't know what the plan was in the first place.

So no, things are not going to get "back on track". They are going to go further and further off track until they reach a climax, and the whole thing will be settled in a completely unexpected fashion.

Because the Giant is a good writer.

[Kaytara]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.

Actually, I think it works out. We know the Thieves Guild has many members, definitely over a dozen, not all of whom are high-level. If it's really the entire Thieves Guild that's attacking them, it makes sense to send in the low level mooks first. Haley doesn't mention the mooks because it's not the mooks she's worried about, since she can kill them with one hit. She worries about a DOZEN mid-to-high level characters who she knows WILL pose a threat to her.

[Devonix]

I'm also thinking that Belkar's going to convince the cleric to remove the Mark of Justice for free, although I think he will choose to kill 20+ rogues with healing help from the cleric, rather than just kill the cleric (although he may do that afterwards anyway)

Once he does, Haley will be mad with him... until he reminds her how much money they just saved.

Except the fact that Belkar is evil and these people more than likely have a better offer for him. As such he'd side with them against Haley and she's have 20+ rogues and a high level Ranger Barbarian. to deal with.

[Grey Watcher]

Except the fact that Belkar is evil and these people more than likely have a better offer for him. As such he'd side with them against Haley and she's have 20+ rogues and a high level Ranger Barbarian. to deal with.

Not necessarily. The opportunity to ruthlessly kill a bunch of humans right now? Without Haley getting mad at him, worrying about the Mark, or any reprisals (at least none that they won't be seeing anyway)? Remember Belkar's appetite for bloodshed has been at near starvation levels for months now. I think he's going to side with whichever group can promise him the most kills, right away, the Thieves' Guild's final bid is a measly 2 (Haley herself, is already promised to Crystal). Haley can offer him a dozen? Two? I think he's sticking with the Order.

[Lokasenna]

Not necessarily. The opportunity to ruthlessly kill a bunch of humans right now? Without Haley getting mad at him, worrying about the Mark, or any reprisals (at least none that they won't be seeing anyway)? Remember Belkar's appetite for bloodshed has been at near starvation levels for months now. I think he's going to side with whichever group can promise him the most kills, right away, the Thieves' Guild's final bid is a measly 2 (Haley herself, is already promised to Crystal). Haley can offer him a dozen? Two? I think he's sticking with the Order.

Or he might think he can go after Haley and the thieves. Why pick just one side when you can kill both?