[3.5] Playing a golem

[Irreverent Fool]

I made a thread a few days ago regarding the limits of the Craft Consctruct feat, and reading over the Tin Golem (Lesser Golems, Dragon Magazine #341), I notice that in addition to getting skills and feats for having an intelligence score, they also gain access to class levels.

This has got me wanting to play one.

Now, I know that the initial response is just going to be to "play a warforged" or to add the 'incarnate construct' template. I'd probably be better off, I know. But I want to play a tin golem, or at least get the creature ready for such an event.

The problem is, they don't have a listed LA. Well they do but it's --. I'm wondering if the creature should have one or not. What do you think?

Spoiler

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Lesser Golem, Tin

Racial Traits

• Construct type: A tin golem has construct traits
• Racial hit dice: A tin golem starts with 3d10 racial hit dice, granting it +2 BAB, skill points (2+int, min 1/level, x4 at first), two feats, +1 to all saves.
• +4 Strength, -6 Intellegence, Charisma -10 (minimum 1)
• +7 Natural Armor
• As a construct, tin golems have no Constitution score.
• Tin golems are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all shields, except tower shields.
• Tin golems start with 6 ranks in any two craft or profession skills. These ranks are in addition to normal skill ranks. A tin golem can exceed the normal limit on ranks in these two skills by up to 6. A tin golem does not apply its intelligence or wisdom penalty to checks with these skills.
• Class skills for a tin golem are Climb, Craft, Profession, and Spot
• Magic immunity: Typical golem immunity to magic. Rusting Grasp affects the creature normally. Any effect that deals electricity damage also slows the golem for 3 rounds, no save.
• Tin golems have an intelligence score, unlike most other golems, and have the ability to speak, though their speech is halting and monotonous.

There are certainly advantages, but the inability to be raised or healed by [healing] spells that allow SR, the immunity to magic (which I believe by RAW prevents use of even the 'repair' line), destruction at 0 hp, and the big hits in the stat department balance this out, I feel.

Edit: Apparently I missed the magic immunity. I've fixed it.
obnoxious
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[Ravens_cry]

The trouble I see being that Golems are way, way overpowered, being immune to most magic.
Still, it would be interesting to see someone role play a mindless automaton, taking everything extremely literally. It could get boring rather quickly, however.

[Bouregard]

The trouble I see being that Golems are way, way overpowered, being immune to most magic.
Still, it would be interesting to see someone role play a mindless automaton, taking everything extremely literally. It could get boring rather quickly, however.

You should read Terry Pratchet t's book "Feet of clay" pretty nice book about golems. And also show a pretty big thing how their mind is working.
I think playing a golem is pretty interesting. how could I serve my master in the most possible best way?

They are created as a tool. So no "Why I live on earth?-questions like.

They don't think about the commands, it could end in destruction or in killing innocents. No matter the golem will do it.

They use mathematical logic.

Take things literal.

If hey get commands they do not like (because they are just stupid or something) , they protest in a strange way of exactly following orders, for example if you task them with digging a trench, well they start digging a trench, noone says how long of course... Or "Hey golem, craft me some chairs" -golem will take any woodlike material and turn it into chairs. hundrets, thousands ... no problem.

There is no boring for them. Waiting 9000 years at the gorund of an ocean is no problem, no tasks, no initiative.

are extremly heavy, so watch for wooden stairs.

[Irreverent Fool]

The trouble I see being that Golems are way, way overpowered, being immune to most magic.
Still, it would be interesting to see someone role play a mindless automaton, taking everything extremely literally. It could get boring rather quickly, however.

I don't think being immune to magic is really 'overpowered'. There's really no arguing with the fact that magic is so much better at everything that there's no reason to do things any other way. Golems exist to make life slightly more difficult for those spellcasters. Besides, you just have to hit them with something that works on objects too. They tend to have terrible saves... especially fort what with the no con score and all.

I see it as more of a disadvantage. Magic immunity means no buffs and no healing (haven't worked out how such a character will get repaired). I think it balances itself out.

obnoxious
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[Ravens_cry]

I have read that, and Going Postal, both were extremely good, though are rather different, at least in flavor, then the D&D Golem. Maybe a home brew experimental golem, (with some balancing characteristics) would be better then the traditional Magic Robot of the D&D Golem. How you Role Play it is of course ones own choice.
[edit]
Well, if I read the description right, the haste spell heals Golems.

[The Glyphstone]

Plus, with every wizard and his grandma packing Orbs of X, the Magic Immunity only really protects against the stuff golems are immune to anyways (death effects and mind-affecting spells).

[Triaxx]

On the other hand, if you have a magic lite, rogue heavy area, such as a thieves guild you're pretty much an unstoppable killing machine.

As for healing, perhaps you can sweet talk the DM into allowing you to absorb non-magical weapons and armor to heal yourself.

[Irreverent Fool]

I have read that, and Going Postal, both were extremely good, though are rather different, at least in flavor, then the D&D Golem. Maybe a home brew experimental golem, (with some balancing characteristics) would be better then the traditional Magic Robot of the D&D Golem. How you Role Play it is of course ones own choice.
[edit]
Well, if I read the description right, the haste spell heals Golems.

Haste actually only heals a specific kind of golem. I forget which kind. Most golems have one or two spells that will affect them... usually in odd ways. I left out the bit that tin golems are affected by rusting grasp normally and are slowed by electricity damage for 3 rounds, no save.

obnoxious
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[Emperor Tippy]

Playing a golem Psychic Warrior would solve most of the problems. RAW they can cast spells/powers on themselves with no problem. You can also use magic items without a problem.

[The Glyphstone]

That depends if Psi/Magic Transparency is in effect or not. It and all of its varients are, by RAW, given equal valid weighting. Unless you mean that many PsyWar powers have SR:No, in which case you're absolutely right.

[ocato]

That Charisma and Int penalty is pretty rough. I bet you could get most of what you want without a lot of trouble with a Warforged. The Warforged Juggernaut offers a lot of "now you're a for real construct" stuff, and makes you a big honking war machine of death. This means no sorting out LA or any of that, as well as a wealth of warforged specific options and items to make things nice and smooth.

[Prometheus]

...reading over the Tin Golem (Lesser Golems, Dragon Magazine #341), I notice that in addition to getting skills and feats for having an intelligence score, they also gain access to class levels.

You may have brains but you don't have a heart. If I were you, I'd be off to see the wizard...THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ.

yeah...I have nothing else to contribute to this conversation.

[Emperor Tippy]

That depends if Psi/Magic Transparency is in effect or not. It and all of its varients are, by RAW, given equal valid weighting. Unless you mean that many PsyWar powers have SR:No, in which case you're absolutely right.

Actually no. RAW a creatures spell resistance never applies against spells they cast themselves.

[Ascension]

The Force Golem from MM... V is it? I think it's V... Anyway, the Force Golem is also intelligent.

[Ravens_cry]

Haste actually only heals a specific kind of golem. I forget which kind. Most golems have one or two spells that will affect them... usually in odd ways. I left out the bit that tin golems are affected by rusting grasp normally and are slowed by electricity damage for 3 rounds, no save.

obnoxious
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Yeah, it may be just the Mithrial Golem with the haste thing. More reasons to have a home brew golem,or a Warforged.

[Khanderas]

As I see it, either the magic immune could be volontarily bypassed (letting the defenses down in order to recive mending or buffs), or simply give them fast healing of appropriate strength but with defenses not droppable.

I do note however that the OP description of the tin golem does not show Trait:Golem, but Trait: Construct.
As such it is not automatically immune to all magic as golems often are and mending / buffs works as normal.

So as written, the Tin golem is, basically a warforged, except not really for war, more a sentient manifacturing unit who for some reason leaves the factory and starts adventuring (by smacking things dead usually, like some kinda Warforge.... heeey )

[Roderick_BR]

A tin golen?

Anyway, drop the spell immunity, and you can get something more playable. Being constructs, they already have lots of immunities.
Maybe get a warforged as base, add some stats, drop the half-healing thing, add 1 or 2 LA, and you are set.
For repairs, you can either get a typical healing way (like fire for iron golens), or get Repair Damage, available both to wizards/sorcerers and artificers.

Just remember to always carry oil with you. And an umbrella.

[Kaiyanwang]

If you remove golem traits, all the challenges about play a golem disappears.
At that point, play a Warforged.

I think that a golem is powerful as a monster, but has a lot of problems as a PC.
So it wouldn't be so unbalanced, specially a golem from DM #341.

If there are troubles or you want to make the story turns at a certain point, remember the Awaken Construct spell.

[Darrin]

There are certainly advantages, but the inability to be raised or healed by [healing] spells that allow SR, the immunity to magic (which I believe by RAW prevents use of even the 'repair' line), destruction at 0 hp, and the big hits in the stat department balance this out, I feel.

Actually, the Repair [blah] Damage spells are "SR: No", so they will work on most golems. If your DM allows such a PC, then see if he'll allow a "Repair Light Damage Stone" or something similar, 1800 GP for a command-activated wondrous item with infinite uses.

Savage Species has some advice on calculating level adjustments... the really sticky issue here is how to calculate how powerful that magic immunity is. We know from Savage Species that a construct is automatically LA +1, and the Tin Golem is considerably less powerful than a Flesh or Stone Golem at LA +6, so our Tin Man is somewhere between there. The Tin Golem doesn't have any DR, no special attacks, and the natural armor is lower than most golems... I'd say it should be around LA +4. 3 HD so total ECL = 7.

[Irreverent Fool]

Regarding the posts saying to 'just play a warforged': quit it! Read the original post.

Regarding the posts making tin man jokes: I am amused!

Thanks for reminding me that the repair line is SR: No. That makes things a bit easier.

Darrin: I think +4 LA is a bit steep. But let me break it down by the Savage Species guidelines (pg 11) and see how it works out.

Ability scores: Strength +4, Intelligence -6, Constiution --, Charisma -10 (minimum 1)

Savage Species says that having no Con score is actually an advantage. I tend to disagree as the downsides more or less balance out the advantages. In certain situations it will be a boon. In others it will be a terrible terrible disadvantage. Compared to our +0 LA friend the orc, I would say this guy is worse off. This section references table 2-7 in the 3.0 DMG. Let's check that out (since I don't see the same table in the 3.5):

DMG 3.0 says a bonus to Strength is balanced by equal penalty to Intelligence and Charisma. Well, we're running on a surplus of 12 here. Is a -12 enough to balance out the 'advantage' of a non-ability? I don't think it would be pushing it to say yes. Besides, this advantage is redundant with being a golem anyway. Let's say +0 LA for the stats.

Natural Armor Bonus +7
"A natural armor bonus is worth at least a +1 LA" Beyond the first 5, each additional 5 adds another +1 LA. This is pretty cut-and-dry. +1 LA.

Skills and Feats
As nice as it is, the +6 on any two craft or profession skills is hardly worth an LA.

Special Attacks and Special Qualities
I don't see where constructs are automatically +1, but considering their immunities, it makes sense. Magic immunity is probably worth a +1 as well, I can't really argue my way of that.

So we're looking at +3 LA. I guess you're right, Darrin. LA is a tricky thing. Looking at playablity, I just don't feel that everything our Tin Man gets makes him an ECL 6-7 though. Overall I'd say he's probably ECL 5ish. I guess that's just a matter for me and the DM to work out.
obnoxious
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[icefractal]

+3 LA would be without the racial HD. Since Construct HD are, let's say, about 1/3 as good as actual class levels, he's effectively getting hit with +2 LA from those alone. So I'd go with 3 HD, +1 LA.

Magic immunity is nice, but also has significant downsides, and won't protect against most monster abilities like breath weapons - or even spells like the Orb series. And as far as Con --, that's not an advantage, it's a disadvantage - everything it gives you is already gotten from being a Construct, and the significant loss of HP will hurt a warrior-type, which is pretty much what the other stats seem suited for.

[icefractal]

Of course, a practical test is more useful than any formula, so let's take my proposed LA of +1 and do an actual comparison against a Warforged (using the Elite array, no equipment factored in):

Tin Golem Crusader 1:

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HP 36
AC 19
BAB +3, Melee Attack +8
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +2
Str 20, Dex 14, Con --, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 1
Immune to Magic
Construct Traits
---
Steely Resolve 5
1st level Maneuvers, 1 stance
2 feats unpicked

Warforged Crusader 5:

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HP 46
AC 19, DR 2/adamantine
BAB +5, Melee Attack +8
Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +2
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
Partial Construct Traits
---
Steely Resolve 10, Zealous Surge
3rd level Manuevers, 2 stances
1 feat unpicked

Comparison:

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Warforged Advantages:
* More HP, More Temp HP
* Damage Reduction
* Better Fort Save, Zealous Surge
* More and Stronger Manuevers (significant)
* Can Be Healed and Buffed By Party
* Not As Dumb and Uncharismatic

Tin Golem Advantages:
* More Construct Immunities
* Magic Immunity
* Better Strength

Conclusion: If anything, +1 LA is a little high, but +0 LA might be too low. The added immunities will be a larger factor at high levels, but so will the lower HP.

[Pie Guy]

Am I the only one noticing that there are no wisdom penalties. Let's use that.

Yes. I just suggested that we make this a cleric.

[Darrin]

So we're looking at +3 LA. I guess you're right, Darrin. LA is a tricky thing. Looking at playablity, I just don't feel that everything our Tin Man gets makes him an ECL 6-7 though. Overall I'd say he's probably ECL 5ish. I guess that's just a matter for me and the DM to work out.

I think the magic immunity is probably closer to +2. However, I was also thinking +3 sounded about right, until I looked at the list of ECLs/LAs towards the end of Savage Species, and all the creatures I thought of as comparable to the Tin Golem tended to have LA +4. Still... my initial "eyeball" guess was closer to +3. The speech and the ability to use weapons makes it one of the most PC-friendly golems you could hope for.

[icefractal]

I was thinking about Cleric, actually, but those 3 Construct HD are a spellcaster-killer, even without the LA.

As for the Savage Species method, I find it tends to overestimate LA in general, and doesn't take the effect of racial HD into account (having lots of racial HD is like a LA by itself). If you look at my practical comparison above, you'll see that +1 LA is a lot closer than +4.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Construct HD give:

• 10-sided HD(very good, not great)
• 3/4s BAB(poor for a Fighter-type, but only 1pt in this instance, so not bad)
• No good saves(!!! Bad, bad, bad. He's very vulnerable to any effect that gets through his immunities)
• 2+int skills(horrid, but it's not exactly a skillmonkey character)

construct type gives:

• No Con score(Bad for a melee'r due to the lack of HP, though it does give some help in pt-buy)
• Low-light/Darkvision(good, but not exactly worth anything)
• Immunity to mind-affecting(good given that his Will save is probably in the toilet)
• Immunity to a large chunk of magical debuffs(see above)
• Cannot heal(not exactly bad, as the best healing and Crusader abilities both circumvent it, as do certain spells)
• More immunities(again, great)
• Immunities(at high levels your goal should be to eliminate any attack style you cannot crush)
• Immune to Fort saves(wow this thing is immune to a lot)
• Dies at 0, can not be brought back(very risky)
• Size-based bonus HP(very nice, balances the lack of Con early on, still hurts later)
• Does not eat, sleep, or breathe(not a huge benefit, but exists)

So the main benefits from being a Construct are the immunities. Everything else is on-par with a standard character. And Magic Immunity pretty much just changes it from "immune to most magic" to "immune to all magic". The massive losses to stats that don't really hurt you overbalance the +4 str, but lets call it a wash. The Nat armor is nice. None of the other stuff matters. Let's say the immunities are 2 LA(magic immunity hurts), the Nat Armor is 1 LA, and the other stuff is 1 LA. You also have 3 HD that don't progress class features, so figure that at -1 LA. ECL 6. Maybe a bit high, but that's what I'd shoot for.

[icefractal]

I'm not convinced that a Tin Golem works as ECL 6.
For instance, if we take the example from earlier, with the proposed +3 LA:

Tin Golem Crusader 1:

Spoiler

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HP 36
AC 19
BAB +3, Melee Attack +8
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +2
Str 20, Dex 14, Con --, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 1
Immune to Magic
Construct Traits
---
Steely Resolve 5
1st level Maneuvers, 1 stance
2 feats unpicked

Warforged Crusader 7:

Spoiler

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HP 64
AC 19, DR 2/adamantine
BAB +7, Melee Attack +10
Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +3
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
Partial Construct Traits
---
Steely Resolve 10, Zealous Surge, Smite
4th level Manuevers, 2 stances
2 feats unpicked

You'll see that the Warforged has almost twice as much HP, the same AC (plus DR), a better attack bonus, better saves, and (importantly) much better manuevers - the equivalent of Polymorph vs Magic Missile.

The only things the Tin Golem has going for it are more construct immunities (many of which are resisted by Fortitude anyway, and thus likely to be saved against), and the double-edged sword which is magic immunity. The higher Strength is by this point outweighed by the higher attack bonus and better damage capacity (via stronger manuevers) of the Warforged.

Bottom Line: The Warforged is superior in almost every way - these two characters are not balanced against each-other. Since a warrior-role is the Tin Golem's biggest strength, this indicates that a +3 LA is too high.

[Irreverent Fool]

+3 LA would be without the racial HD. Since Construct HD are, let's say, about 1/3 as good as actual class levels, he's effectively getting hit with +2 LA from those alone. So I'd go with 3 HD, +1 LA.

Magic immunity is nice, but also has significant downsides, and won't protect against most monster abilities like breath weapons - or even spells like the Orb series. And as far as Con --, that's not an advantage, it's a disadvantage - everything it gives you is already gotten from being a Construct, and the significant loss of HP will hurt a warrior-type, which is pretty much what the other stats seem suited for.

Yeah, there's no getting around the 3 racial HD, and I was coming to about the same conclusion there. Most monsters with racial HD suffer the same fate though. Your comparisons are most helpful.
obnoxious
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[Copacetic]

An entire Golem Campaignh would be rather intresting to play, with the DM having to work around the magic immunity and other such. But it would still be cool.


Obnoxious
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[Emperor Tippy]

Thoughts on turning the LA into HD?

So instead of 3 HD and 4 LA for ECL 7 have 7 HD and 0 LA.

Those levels are still worth less than class levels but you at least gain HP, saves, BAB, and skills for those 4 levels.