help making a fanatical religious group/army

[Guinea Anubis]

So in the game I am running right now I want to introduce a fanatical religious group and to slowly build them up in this campain. Then in the next Campain with new characters but the same players use them as the main driving force of the plot and the main evil they have to stop. The group is going to be called "The Silver Fist" and I want them to be kinda like the Gray Knights from Warhammer 40k.

The main goal of the TSF is to build up a large enough army to start an all out holy war aginst all other churchs and wipe out all worship of any god but theres. They are starting to do this buy going to places that have problems like being attacked by goblins, asking only for a small polt of land to build a church on, and then sending in a 100+ man army to wipe the problen out.

I was going to have the leader of TSF be the "living god" the rest of TSF worships. I was also going to have them get most of there money from new converts they brainwash in the form of everything that convert owns now becomes the churchs.

I know I am missing a lot of stuff I will need to set up to make this work, that is why I am asking for help. What other things do I need to address to make this work?

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Well, for one thing, what type of followers is this group going to draw? After all, as villains for a group, they're going to have to be at least semi-interesting in combat. Presumably as you go, the party will start by encountering basically guards/grunts, but eventually they'll find people will class levels or even a head of one of the churches of the group.

Now, obviously the head of a church would probably be a cleric, but what kind of minions would there be? Fighters make the most sense, but I could see you doing Knights, Clerics, or even Paladins/Blackguards (would be really interesting IMO, as you paint the enemy Paladins as believing in an ideal they perceive as Good. You could even have the party work to "convert" some Paladins or something).

Basically, this comes down to clarifying the group's methods and what types of people it would try to appeal to.

Good luck with it, it sounds very interesting.

-JM

[metalbear]

One idea to make the group more distinct is to give them a signature weapon. While they may not always use this weapon in a fight, a member would always carry at least a ceremonial copy of the weapon. An example of this would be the double snake dagger from Conan the Barbarian that the snake cultists use. However it could be any sort of weapon, you could even make one up. The main idea is to have an iconic weapon.

[Guinea Anubis]

One idea to make the group more distinct is to give them a signature weapon. While they may not always use this weapon in a fight, a member would always carry at least a ceremonial copy of the weapon. An example of this would be the double snake dagger from Conan the Barbarian that the snake cultists use. However it could be any sort of weapon, you could even make one up. The main idea is to have an iconic weapon.

Good Idea! Since they are going to be called "The Silver Fist" I will have them use maces that look like a fist.

[AKA_Bait]

Good Idea! Since they are going to be called "The Silver Fist" I will have them use maces that look like a fist.

I like the idea but might I suggest that instead of a signature weapon you give them a signature peice of armor. Namley, a signature gauntlet. Just one. This allows weapon freedom within the order but gives them all a distinguishing mark. From there, you can have each type of gauntlet (scroll work, other detaling there on) indicate place in the orders hierarchy, membership in various subgroups within the Silver Fist, etc.

[Guinea Anubis]

Well after putting some thought in to this I have come up with a little more background. The Living God will have started off as the ruler of a small out of the way mountain kingdom.

Seven Kings ago that King declared him self a coduit/messenger of the gods, then two or three kings ago they declared them selfs living gods (kinda like Pharaohs). This guy will have taken to a whole new level by not only believing he is a living god but out lawing worship of any god but him.

So this group will have a whole kingdom behind them for backing. I also think that only a small group of very close advicers to this guy should know he is not a real god, But the rest of the group/church should.

As for what kind of followers they would get, I would have to say all kinds. Other then a small group of clerics that will run the churchs that work for the very close advicers I would think the followers would run the gambit. Like how many modern cults have followers how are not evil but are willing to do something evil becase there leader told them it was the right thing to do.

[Ganurath]

The Silver Fist should be an order of Gray Paladins (Complete Scoundrel), Ordained Champions (Complete Champion) and a refluffed version of the Shadowbane PrCs (Complete Adventurer) in the service of Heironeous, who are trying to rally the people in a crusade against evil religions to build up momentum before gradually working up the evil-to-good axis. What they don't realize is that they're being influenced by Dispater, who is making them demonize worship of Heironeous using the influence afforded him by possessing the Chalice. Their leader is a favored soul with Improved Unarmed Strike and a pair of silver gauntlets that, functionally, are Heironeous's counterpart to Gauntlets of the Blood Lord (Complete Divine,) maximizing those touch spells like inflict critical wounds for free and granting a +4 bonus to touch attacks.

Of course, this requires at least one established evil theocracy, or at least a series of cities where evil deities are worshipped openly.

[Texas Jedi]

I really like the thought behind this.

How about the kingdom suffered terrible things in the past and because of those sufferings they turned away from the so-called 'false' gods and put their faith in the King. The Seventh King in the past saved the people from their suffering so that is why the people worship him. I would have the King actually be a dragon, or a demon/devil (or another type of outsider) hiding under major illusions that took over the Kings body. He has been changing identities through the years and killing anybody that might suspect the truth.

Heck instead of a demon/devil create a monster that is extremely lawful Neutral and thinks that the rule of Law is supreme. All of the gods are touched and corrupted by chaos so they must be destroyed.

I would have had that kingdom after that take over and absorb nearby fiefdoms or smaller kingdoms and convert them under their rule. This would allow the new group to try to liberate and work for the underground of those conquerred kingdoms.

If memory serves there was a Prestige Class thats whole point was to destroy the gods. They had bonuses to resist divine magic and were immune to other abilities as well. I think it was in one of the earlier smaller supplements like Tome and Blood, or Defenders of Faith.

[Guinea Anubis]

I really would like to keep him a normal human. Something about him just being a normal guy with a god complex just seams right to me.


Edit:
Another thing that just popped in to my head. What if I do a Dr Doom/Latveria thing have have this small mountain kingdom utopian like under the Living Gods iron silver fist.

On a side note I really need to come up with a name for this guy.

[Egiam]

While I do not follow warhammer, I have an Idea that might fit your bill. How about a terrorist group that associates with the church of the silver flame (Eberron) or cuthbert. The church denies any connection (up to DM if they do). They do strategic bombings of churches of other faiths with alchemical Items. They believe that this is for the greater good, that they are purifiying the world. If in Eberron they could also be werewolf hunters (Shifters?). Here you can have clerics, wizards, Rouges, paladins (in 4.0 and Eberron 3.5) and blackguards.

[Egiam]

I really like the thought behind this.

How about the kingdom suffered terrible things in the past and because of those sufferings they turned away from the so-called 'false' gods and put their faith in the King. The Seventh King in the past saved the people from their suffering so that is why the people worship him. I would have the King actually be a dragon, or a demon/devil (or another type of outsider) hiding under major illusions that took over the Kings body. He has been changing identities through the years and killing anybody that might suspect the truth.

Heck instead of a demon/devil create a monster that is extremely lawful Neutral and thinks that the rule of Law is supreme. All of the gods are touched and corrupted by chaos so they must be destroyed.

I would have had that kingdom after that take over and absorb nearby fiefdoms or smaller kingdoms and convert them under their rule. This would allow the new group to try to liberate and work for the underground of those conquerred kingdoms.

If memory serves there was a Prestige Class thats whole point was to destroy the gods. They had bonuses to resist divine magic and were immune to other abilities as well. I think it was in one of the earlier smaller supplements like Tome and Blood, or Defenders of Faith.

Hey, this sounds cool, but even better if you take an "I Robot" mentality about it. Imagine, medieval communism. That would make some awesome "resistance fighters" style encounters if he succeeded.

[Keld Denar]

Do a little searching around wikipedia and canonfire for the Church of Pholtus, in the Greyhawk setting. Pholtus is a god of sun, law, "enlightenment" and essentially tyranny. Their belief in "The One True Path" is absolute and inflexible. Everyone who doesn't believe is a heritic, and anyone caught blaspheming (this includes humans carrying non-Pholtus holy symbols, demi-humans are exempt but are considered "unclean") is either burned at the stake or sent to work salt mines in the Theocracy of the Pale. The church puts itself forward as Lawful Good, although some extreme sects within the church could almost be considered Lawful Evil because of their radical practice. The Pale is a theocracy, led by the High Theocrat, who is hailed as a conduit of Pholtus on the prime, kind of like your god-king idea.

Canonfire article:
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modu...article&sid=27
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholtus

Hmmm, different sources cite different home planes. Canonfire dictates that Pholtus resides on Arcadia, while Wikipedia says he live in Mechanus. Mechanus fits a bit better, I guess, due to his emphasis on Lawful with Good being secondary when it's the best way to Lawful.

[Funkyodor]

As for a name / nickname for the god complexed human leader. Maybe go with "The Purifier". And as for a symbol, I'd go with the gauntlet thing, but change it to a ranking system on their gauntlets. Brighter and more ornate with symbols relating to the cults origins. They would be able to tell each other apart in ways that might be difficult to see in the heat of combat.

Also, the Grey Knights (pretty much all 40k armies) are big on the large banners. So having a big target thats nothing more than a bannerman might be neat to encounter after they become experienced enough to take on larger groups.

[Emperor Tippy]

How about a level 20 Elan wizard?

He looks human but is immortal and fluff it's a process done to humans. Refluff it from being psionic to being magic. A level 20 wizard is close to a god, and it gives access to Mind Rape. Every one of his followers is fanatically loyal and knows that he is their god, this goes beyond mere belief, they have seen and experienced his divine power.

[Doomsy]

If they are rigidly lawful you can expect that to show in their combat forces. The military will be trained superbly and well equipped but lack initiative. They will fight fiercely and well and with discipline, but they will not fight as effectively as many looser military forces, especially in unforeseen circumstances. While they will not panic they will be very slow to react until they have a clear chain of command present.

The fist theme works for a repeating motif as well ranks. Maces and hammers with stylized fists might be authority symbols like a field marshals baton, gauntlets might serve as rank & role identification as mentioned earlier. Right or left hand, etc. Special internal police units or elite combat units might actually fight unarmed or with a fist, gauntlet, or stylized hammers/maces as a point of theological pride.

[Prometheus]

To complete the images of paternalism and intolerance, have them colonize the goblinoids, gnolls, and giants in an attempt to "civilize" them. Most human settlements will stand by and do nothing, maybe not believing the Silver Fist is acting appropriately but not willing to stick their neck out to save a pest. Rather than the Silver Fist civilizing the goblinoids, if anything the goblinoids savagize the Silver Fist. The Silver Fist takes recruits among the goblinoids, and whatever ideals the Silver Fist had to begin with, its clear that the goblinoids take it to far and act with a terrible bloodlust and inhumanity in their service to the Silver Fist.

[metalbear]

If you have the time and the inclination, a book series that deals with a very similar antagonist is S.M. Stirling's "The Sunrise Lands". The series deals with society after electricity and combustion just quit working, and this sub-series pits the protagonists against a force of religious fanatics from the Church Universal and Triumphant, CUT for short. They are a group of highly expansionist and violent fanatics. BTW, they even have a cool name "the Cutters".

[elliott20]

Behold! The high priest of the silverfist!!

Spoiler

Show

sorry, couldn't resist.

but seriously, one of the things I noted was missing from all this is the profile of the True God. What are some of the thematic principles being taught here? I think knowing that would help clarify what kind of followers you'd see. The reason why I say this is because while at lower levels you'll see all kinds of followers, once you start climbing the ranks, you'll see certain types of individuals more likely to ascend than others. That criteria would most likely be based on church dogma as well as a combination of other factors.

After all, a religion that focuses on personal meditation will probably have more swordsages in their ranks than say, paladins.

[EvilElitest]

traditionally i use grey guard for my evil zealots. I just make their alignment requirement any non good and use them
from
EE

[Raging Gene Ray]

When I saw the name Silver Fist, I immediately thought of the Church of the Silver Flame from Ebberon and the Argent Fist prestige class (Basically, Paladin/Monks whose levels stack for both Smite Evil and Unarmed Strike Damage who can sheathe their fists in Silver Fire that burns evil bad) in Faiths of Eberron. You might be able to do something with that. You definitely need higher ranking members of the church fighting with no weapon but their own magical Fists of Power.

There's also Magic of Eberron which describes an Artificer Prestige Class that grafts a mechanical Battlefist onto their arm and magically enhances it.

As for the "Living God..." how much do you want to emphasize his god complex? Do his followers view him as a god or just as a normal guy with lots of power (but don't say that to his face)? Does his army and the rest of his nation truly believe in his divinity while he and his own inner circle know how it really is? If you want to make him more of a "Living Fraud" who preys off the weak minded with a false presentation of himself as a deity, you might play that up by making him an artificer who gets all his powers from magical items grafted somehow onto his body. That would play up the whole idea of artificial divinity.

If he does have an inner circle, I think some of them should be rogues with UMD that infiltrate other nations before invading, and use Scrolls of Mindrape or Programmed Amnesia on the nobility to make them ripe for the taking...unless that kind of careful scheming would go against the Living God's overconfidence.

[Yakk]

I'm going to do a riff run.

The Silver Fists worship the One, a noble from what was once a backward little state.

Initially they accept converts freely. The mark of worship of the Silver Fists is a tattoo on your wrist, or a silver bracelet around your wrist. (these items are scry-protection devices of increasing power, sometimes surprisingly so)

What makes this nation special is that it has basically hacked the D&D XP system and logistics system. Members of the silver fist engage in weekly worship that involves conflict and contests, and at each weekly worship the church provides the winners with real hard resources (create food and other resources cheese).

The goal of the members of the silver fists is to bring everyone up to perfection. And ... it seems to be working. (XP cheese)

They have a reasonably large force, and have been moving into areas on the edge of civilization. They ask permission to set up a church-fortress (or just do it), and in exchange they start attacking and pushing back the humanoids.

Defeated humanoids are either killed, or a silver collar are placed on them that acts as a kind of domination effect. These 'tame' humanoids are used as both troops, occasionally as field labour, and a number of them are sent 'back home' to the home kingdom for rehabilitation. (they are being bred and sacrificed for XP to power magical crafting)

Humanoids who have served well have a chance to be released and treated as full members of the Church of the Silver Fist. Initially this is rare or unheard of.

The Church uses magical items that it claims are holy artifacts in reasonably large numbers. Most seem restricted to being used by reasonably high ranking members of the church. (they are doing artificer-cheese)

The organization grows in the background. To start with, they might even be patrons of the PCs. Next, they displace the PCs on a quest, and annoy them. Then the PCs start seeing fishy things happening. Finally, they become the enemy of the PCs, ideally due to the PCs seeing or hearing something that they shouldn't.

The entire time, the Silver Fists are generating higher and higher level characters, and pumping out more and more impressive magical tools for them to use. Kings convert in exchange for the magical technology that the Silver Fist provides, then go to war with neighboring kingdoms and kick their asses with the help of the Silver Fist.

Churches and the like start losing worshipers to the economic might and power of the silver fist. When kings change faiths, they start neglecting the old gods. Kingdoms that don't allow the silver fist don't get silver fist support in mercenaries and logistics, and ... fall to their rivals.

The Silver Fist still looks good, other than it's epic-magic scry shielded home kingdom which raises a few eyebrows. . . But the churches get nervous.

[Thurbane]

IMC I have a fanatical military group of Zarus worshippers - the leader is a Cleric/Warpriest, and his general is a Paladin of Tyranny/Marshal.

[Guinea Anubis]

Ok guys one thing I should have said from the get go, this is going to be in 4e so I wont get to use all the cool 3.X stuff. The reason it is going to be in 4e is because my players like 4e over 3.X, and a big part of being a DM is making the players happy.

but seriously, one of the things I noted was missing from all this is the profile of the True God. What are some of the thematic principles being taught here? I think knowing that would help clarify what kind of followers you'd see. The reason why I say this is because while at lower levels you'll see all kinds of followers, once you start climbing the ranks, you'll see certain types of individuals more likely to ascend than others. That criteria would most likely be based on church dogma as well as a combination of other factors.

After all, a religion that focuses on personal meditation will probably have more swordsages in their ranks than say, paladins.

Well since there over all goal is an all out holy war, I guess they would want strong fighters. I am guessing there will be a lot of Fighters, some Paladins, even less Warlords.

As for the "Living God..." how much do you want to emphasize his god complex? Do his followers view him as a god or just as a normal guy with lots of power (but don't say that to his face)? Does his army and the rest of his nation truly believe in his divinity while he and his own inner circle know how it really is? If you want to make him more of a "Living Fraud" who preys off the weak minded with a false presentation of himself as a deity, you might play that up by making him an artificer who gets all his powers from magical items grafted somehow onto his body. That would play up the whole idea of artificial divinity.

I want him to 100% think he is a living god. The only ones in the whole church that will not think he is a god are his 4 close advicers who will all be childhood friends.


So I sat down lastnight and put some stuff down on paper so I have a good starting point. I am just going to use some REALLY lame names for now and come up with better later


700 years ago in the Small mountain kingdom of Tragistine was hit by a crop blight. The King, Joe claming to hear the voices of the god and is the conduit of there will invaded and took over there peaceful nabouring kingbom. This act of war saved Tragistine and cemented the holiness of there king in the minds of the Tragistine's . They then start to pray and to worship there kings to find out the will of the gods. Every king got more and more cought up in being worshiped untill about 300 years ago the king Frank declared he was a living god. This now brings up to 50 years ago when the King Bob outlawed the worship of any god other then him. Tragistine had been very prosperous ever since King Joe, but under the rule of King Bob Tragistine became utopian like. When King Bob ascended to full godhood (he died) his son Timmy became the new King/living God.

King Timmy wants to being prosperity to the rest of the world by turning it in to a utopia, like Tragistine that only worships him. Telling his four closest friends this, and they convince him that a Living God should not dirty his hands with stuff like this and to let them handle everything.

They are the ones that come up with a plan that will make there "god" happy and will give them more power then they ever dreamed of.
1. Set up suppling center, training centers, recruiting centers, and forts in as many towns as posable by making them churchs.
2. to set up these churchs use Tragistine's holy army to take care of problems these towns are having for the small price of a little land to build a church on.
3. Start brainwashing new converts and have them sign over all the wealth and land to the church to help fund the ever growing army.
4. Start training the new converts to be foot soilders in the army as soon as they are brainwashed enough.
5. One the army is big enough do a coordinated attack on every town we have a church in and remove every other church and take over the town.

Some other little notes I have.
The Silver Fist started as the crest of the Kings family but over 700 years it has become the holy symbol of the Living God King.
The holy army has become known as "The Silver Fist" because of them flying a red banner with the fist on it.
The army wears black armor with the right gauntlet silver/crome/shiny. The higher rank you are the more ornate it is.
Clerics or anyone else that does not wear armor tends to use maces in the shap of a fist.

I have not had time to take in some of the new posts and work in the stuff I like from them, but I think this is a good starting point to work from.

What do you all think? What points do I need to cover better?

[Texas Jedi]

That is great back ground. It is very fleshed out.

I do have a few questions though.

How much power does his 4 friends have. I got the impression that they are the true powers behind the throne and make all of the decisions. Is that because the "Timmy" doesn't want the responsiblities, or is he just happy being oblivious to the Silver Fists true motives? In that option "Timmy" is just a figure head without any real power.


I do have a good option to introduce them for low level groups. You could have group fight along side them clearing an area. That way the party might be oblivious to the "evil" they really represent.

I don't know how alignments in 4e works but I don't see this group as the tradional evil. I see them more as an extreme Lawful Neutral than any type of evil.

[Guinea Anubis]

How much power does his 4 friends have. I got the impression that they are the true powers behind the throne and make all of the decisions. Is that because the "Timmy" doesn't want the responsiblities, or is he just happy being oblivious to the Silver Fists true motives? In that option "Timmy" is just a figure head without any real power.

I was going for the "its because Timmy doesn't want the responsiblities".

I was going to play Timmy like a spoiled child that never had to grow up. He will care for his kingdom and his people a great deal because its the job of a god to take care his worshipers. Timmy will just not want to do the real work other then making his "godly decrees"

As for his four childhood friends, there familys will have been help running Tragistine for Timmy's family for at lest the last the last 300 to 400 years. With each new king the four familys would have been handing more and more of the running of the kingdom. So King Timmy will trust his four friend with out a doubt, and will trust them to run things for him without hesitation.

I think it should be interesting to see how the PCs will react to all of this.

[Prometheus]

You should definitely give each of the four friends distinct personality and ability.

[Guinea Anubis]

You should definitely give each of the four friends distinct personality and ability.

Yep developing them would be the next step that I can think of.

So far all I have is 4 class picked out for them I was thinking Warlord, Cleric, Wizard, and Fighter. The Warlord could be the military mind, the Cleric could run the church, the Wizard could handle the laws, and last the fighter could be the front line leader of the army.

As for a personality I will have to think on this one for a bit.

[Handsome Rob]

Seen this thread?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068

[Guinea Anubis]

So I had all weekend to think about what personalitys to give these four. I was going to base them off of real life persons, so that I have a good starting point for them.

Warlord/Fighter - I was going to make him an Inspiring Warlord multi classed in to Fighter. I am thinking of basing him off of Erwin Rommel.

Cleric - Battle Cleric - This one was a no brainer, base him off a televangelist.

Wizard - War Wizard - This one was really hard to make up my mind on. The first thing that jump to mind was a stage magician, but that would not work since I wanted this guy to be the one hadling the money from taxs and such, dealing with the laws, and just most of the government/business end of things. After a good deal of thought I came up with Donald Trumpto base him off.

Rogue - Trickster Rogue - I switched this guy over from a Fighter to a Rogue so he would have a more unique roll in the group since I felt that have a warlord and fighter doing the same kind of job may step on each others toes and I wanted good synergy with these four. The next thing I made up my mind on was I wanted this one to be a female. The new job I came with for her was head of the secret police an all female group. Since this group would be handling any internal threats, and assassinting some high profile targets. I could not find a good real life person to base her off of so I think I will just go for something like Black Widow from Marvel comics.

[Triaxx]

I'd personally ditch the fighter, and make him a paladin instead, using Fax' How-it-should-be Paladin.