Effectively trapping high level players

[La_Carnaval]

I can't think of any way to incapacitate high level players so that they are reminded of their own mortalities, so to speak. So I was wondering what would be the most effective way to trap various high level characters (18th level or so). I don't want to kill the characters, but I want them to remember all of their problem solving skills from lower levels when traps and puzzles could actually be lethal.

I've seen ways to do it with 2e, such as having doors that only people with a strength of less that 15 could open for instance, but not in 3.5.

[Yukitsu]

Illusions.

To wit, a dungeon that is completely anti magic, but made out of shadow conjured walls. The higher their will save, the more likely they fall through the floor and into a pit.

[Kris Strife]

give each player a rubiks cube?
have an identicle twins both being accused of a crime but only one is guilty, and both have the same alignment. One of them has a vital bit of information, but the PCs cant talk to them.

[Emperor Tippy]

What classes are the PC's?

[La_Carnaval]

What classes are the PC's?

I'd say a fairly standard party, a spellcaster of some flavor, a fighter, a cleric, and a rogue. Nothing too special, just core, since other classes get ridiculous and break the system even more.

Although if you know if a way to trap a ridiculously optimized *anything* then I'm interested to know.

[rayne_dragon]

Have traps hit them with effects that lower their saves and/or have non-lethal effects such as sleep and paralysis. I had a DM who had some low level imps that cast save lowering magic in conjunction with status effect spells and our epic (lvl 22-24) characters had a hard time against them, so doing the same thing with traps should be effective.

Traps that inflict negative levels or inflict poisons that do significant ability score damage might also be effective, especially if you can design the ungeon in such a way that the party can't rest effectively, prehaps because they're being chased by monsters, they're in a hurry plot-wise or just because of the atmosphere (a dungeon that blares out death metal music from every surface is not somewhere I could rest).

I'm not sure this would work for what you need but I think it may have some potential. You could have part of the dungeon accessable only by teleporter, but make it so the teleporter can't transport items, while there is another teleporter than only transports items. They then have to find their way from where they appear to where their items are. Throwing in a monster with some good DR (and maybe SR) in between... of course, perhaps the monster is more interested in riddles than a fight?

Shadow conjurated anything could be delightfully nasty.

Some of the ideas here may also be helpful.

[jcsw]

Hit them with a mage's disjunction first?

[Yahzi]

There is nothing you can put in a dungeon that will affect 18th level characters.

They either need to be invading other planes, where you can change the rules at will; or you need to be messing with their minds through diplomacy and subterfuge.

[Emperor Tippy]

Physically trapping them is pretty easy, assuming core only as you have indicated, unless they are truly paranoid. Just have them enter a room where all the walls, ceiling, and floor are backed with permanent walls of force and have an anti-magic field trap in the room. They enter, the door closes, a wall of force appears behind it, and the AMF goes up. If the wizard doesn't have any of the force line of spells prepared then they are trapped (and depending upon how you rule AMF's functioning this isn't even a concern).

Beyond that, and if you aren't adverse to using psionics and the psionics is different rule, you can just whack them with a disjunction followed by a heavily augmented Microcosm. That will trap them inside their own minds, and you can rule that however you like. Or the other thing is have them enter a dungeon, under the effects of anti-teleport magic of course, and once they are in have the instant resetting Quintessence trap activates and begins filling the dungeon with quintessence.

The quintessence one will end the campaign because there is no way to escape it once caught.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) The dungeon is under a twinned unhallow with the spell Dimensional Anchor and Protection from Evil tied to it. Can't teleport, use extradimensional spaces or summon. Cannot magically control creatures in it.
2) The dungeon is lined with a thin sheet of lead. No detect spells work.
3) The dungeon is fully covered by Spike Stones. 2d6 damage for every square of movement and there is nowhere to rest.
4) The dungeon is under tornado-force winds (control winds spell). Can't fly.
5) The dungeon is under an entropic aura. HP cannot be recovered in it though healing spells succeeding in a CL check will still work.
6) The dungeon corridors are too small for large or larger creatures or there are pillars interrupting the space that make large or larger creatures not fit in it. Forget shapechanging into them.
7) All the above effects are transdimensional and the physical objects are ethereal solids too. No avoiding it with incorporeality crap.

Now that the standard stuff is out of the way, feel free to be creative. The PCs will actually have to run through your dungeon, cannot rest and recover resources every 5 minutes, cannot fly over traps, cannot bypass obstacles with teleportation or ghostform, cannot shapechange into most broken crap, cannot summon or call aids or dominate/charm a small army.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) The dungeon is under a twinned unhallow with the spell Dimensional Anchor and Protection from Evil tied to it. Can't teleport, use extradimensional spaces or summon. Cannot magically control creatures in it.
2) The dungeon is lined with a thin sheet of lead. No detect spells work.
3) The dungeon is fully covered by Spike Stones. 2d6 damage for every square of movement and there is nowhere to rest.
4) The dungeon is under tornado-force winds (control winds spell). Can't fly.
5) The dungeon is under an entropic aura. HP cannot be recovered in it though healing spells succeeding in a CL check will still work.
6) The dungeon corridors are too small for large or larger creatures or there are pillars interrupting the space that make large or larger creatures not fit in it. Forget shapechanging into them.
7) All the above effects are transdimensional and the physical objects are ethereal solids too. No avoiding it with incorporeality crap.

Now that the standard stuff is out of the way, feel free to be creative. The PCs will actually have to run through your dungeon, cannot rest and recover resources every 5 minutes, cannot fly over traps, cannot bypass obstacles with teleportation or ghostform, cannot shapechange into most broken crap, cannot summon or call aids or dominate/charm a small army.

I pull out my scroll of wish and use the transport travelers clause to leave.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

I cast Telekenitic Sphere and just float along, immune to the floor, the wind, and the entropic aura (no line of effect).

I use shapechange to turn into a golem (or will-o-whisp), gaining Immunity to Magic. Dimensional Anchor is SR yes and unhallow doesn't change that fact, I can teleport out at will. Granted, I could have just teleported out after casting TK sphere or resilient sphere or Force Cage (again, no line of effect).

Your trap's can be negated by any reasonably well prepared caster and aren't worth the effort. I'm an adventurer, why am I going to go into that dungeon at all in the first place? I just shapechange into an earth elemental, put the rest of the party in a bag of holding, and use earth glide to bypass the whole mess.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Unhallow is an instantaneous spell. There is nothing there you can block line of effect to, dispel or become immune or resistant to. The effects of Unhallow are considered a nonmagical feature of the area. So, a golem's magic immunity? Doesn't work. Not to mention that a golem can't teleport. Resilient Sphere? Doesn't block LoE for the Unhallow. Earth Glide won't work if the walls are not stone or earth. While under the effects of Telekinetic Sphere you can't open doors or manipulate objects outside so you wouldn't go very far.

So no, the primary defences of the dungeon are not as simple to overcome as they initially seem. And if you want to play hardcore, use both Unhallow and Hallow in the area-strangely enough, they don't dispel or surpress eachother. One for Dimensional Anchor, the other for silence. Suddenly you can't activate magic items and can't cast spells that haven't been silented.

I'm an adventurer, why am I going to go into that dungeon at all in the first place?

Because the objective of the campaign cannot be completed if you don't. You don't get to find the artifact. You don't get the kidnapped king back. You don't find the book of ancient lore. Of course, you may choose not to go in any case. But anything you ever did so far to complete the campaign will have been in vain.

[Waspinator]

Flesh to Stone? If you manage to get them with it, I don't know of any method short of outside intervention that can get a player out of it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Unhallow is an instantaneous spell. There is nothing there you can block line of effect to, dispel or become immune or resistant to. The effects of Unhallow are considered a nonmagical feature of the area. So, a golem's magic immunity? Doesn't work. Not to mention that a golem can't teleport. Resilient Sphere? Doesn't block LoE for the Unhallow. Earth Glide won't work if the walls are not stone or earth. While under the effects of Telekinetic Sphere you can't open doors or manipulate objects outside so you wouldn't go very far.

Unhallow specifically says that any spells attached to it give saving throws and SR as normal. Golem's are immune. And LoE is debatable, the rules are less than clear but it's at best a DM call.

Also, since Unhallow is instantaneous, you just need to destroy the walls in one direction until you are out side it's range and your fine.

And a golem can teleport, the teleport line is SR: No, meaning a wizard can teleport one with them or use teleport without any ambiguity when shapechanged into a golem (or will-o-wisp).

So no, the primary defences of the dungeon are not as simple to overcome as they initially seem. And if you want to play hardcore, use both Unhallow and Hallow in the area-strangely enough, they don't dispel or surpress eachother. One for Dimensional Anchor, the other for silence. Suddenly you can't activate magic items and can't cast spells that haven't been silented.

Shapechange still let's you bypass the whole thing. Thank you immunity to magic.

Because the objective of the campaign cannot be completed if you don't. You don't get to find the artifact. You don't get the kidnapped king back. You don't find the book of ancient lore. Of course, you may choose not to go in any case. But anything you ever did so far to complete the campaign will have been in vain.

Why don't I just disintegrate the whole thing one 10 foot area at a time until I reach what I want? Or better yet just pull out my scroll of wish and wish my self (and party) to the location in the dungeon that I want.

[BobVosh]

Level 13 tuckers Kobolds with prepared counterspell abjuration kobolds.

Or a Dead magic zone for the win. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dead-magic_zone

[RPGuru1331]

Why don't I just disintegrate the whole thing one 10 foot area at a time until I reach what I want? Or better yet just pull out my scroll of wish and wish my self (and party) to the location in the dungeon that I want.

Eh-heh. Not to comment on the reliability of the rest (I'm not saying it's not, I just don't care to debate it), I should remind you that Wish is, per RAW, exceedingly vulnerable to GM Fiat, and not a spell I would point out as a counter to the GM's plans, excepting when it emulates.. what was it, 8th level Arcane spells, 7th level banned school arcane spells, 7th level Divine, 6th level Banned Divine? For instance, if, say, the location of the dungeon you want is warded against Teleportation..

[Emperor Tippy]

I quoted the relevant passage of wish. Bolded it even. "Regardless of local conditions". You can use wish to teleport into or out of the presence of a greater deity with epic level anti-teleport systems in place without any problem.

[RPGuru1331]

I'm fairly certain Wish has a line in it about perverting wishes that the DM doesn't like.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm fairly certain Wish has a line in it about perverting wishes that the DM doesn't like.

Only if it's not one of the listed effects. And transport travelers is one of the listed effects, so no perversion.

[Talic]

I quoted the relevant passage of wish. Bolded it even. "Regardless of local conditions". You can use wish to teleport into or out of the presence of a greater deity with epic level anti-teleport systems in place without any problem.

Well, with the exception, obviously, that many deity level magics state that they override mortal magic.

Which means if a level 1-9 spell says "you can't do that"...
and a deity effect says "I can do that"

The deity effect generally wins.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maze is great, especially against hard hitting low-Int characters and divine casters. An opponent can ready an action or cast Celerity to cast Maze on someone if they charge or cast. Give them a level of Mindbender with the feat Mindsight (LoM) and it will automatically know what everyone's Int score is, so it can be sure to hit the lowest Int character. Use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell to hit all or most of the party with it, they'll start escaping it one by one and be stuck facing the encounter only a few at a time. Their opponents can spend the time it takes them to escape buffing and/or summoning monsters.

The spell Iceberg (FB) and to a lesser degree Call Avalanche (FB) will usually completely own any spellcasters, leaving the high-Str and high Reflex save characters a chance to shine. Just throw a Quickened Silence centered on a point in space on the party before casting either of those to prevent any Dimension Door or Polymorph escape tricks.

Cold environment, they have to swim through freezing water to get to the next area. Granted they'll all be immune to cold thanks to magic, but the next opponent has the feat Snowcasting (FB) and uses a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell to cast Flesh to Ice (FB). They all take a -10 on their saving throws due to having been immersed in freezing water and still having wet clothing, regardless of cold immunity. That works with any Fort save cold effect, including any Fort save spell when using Snowcasting.

Prismatic Walls are nice. Throw in a Harpy Vampire with levels in something like Warlock to sing them into walking through the Prismatic Wall. Give it the feat Requiem (LM) and say it applies to its song, then make up a new feat with that as a prerequisite that makes any racial sonic mind-affecting charm effects automatically penetrate any immunity to mind-affecting effects. After that just focus on boosting the DC, or replace the standard DC with a Perform check. Yes it depends on the DM making up a bunch of stuff to put the monster at more of an advantage, but consider just how many books have been published for optimizing PCs and compare it to how many monster books there are, a DM almost has to make stuff up just to make monsters challenging for a powerful party. Say the Prismatic Wall was cast using Snowcasting if you're using the trick I mentioned earlier.

E6 fixes the problem of PCs being too powerful to be challenged.

[Talic]

Fighter charges.

NPC Wizard casts celerity >> Maze.

WAIT.

Party wizard casts celerity >> Maximized quickened twinned split empowered orb of force. 400 damage.

NPC wizard dies.

Party wins.

.....

Celerity + xxx beats any other instance you used.

No. Direct combat is not the way to do it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Prismatic Walls are nice. Throw in a Harpy Vampire with levels in something like Warlock to sing them into walking through the Prismatic Wall. Give it the feat Requiem (LM) and say it applies to its song, then make up a new feat with that as a prerequisite that makes any racial sonic mind-affecting charm effects automatically penetrate any immunity to mind-affecting effects. After that just focus on boosting the DC, or replace the standard DC with a Perform check. Yes it depends on the DM making up a bunch of stuff to put the monster at more of an advantage, but consider just how many books have been published for optimizing PCs and compare it to how many monster books there are, a DM almost has to make stuff up just to make monsters challenging for a powerful party. Say the Prismatic Wall was cast using Snowcasting if you're using the trick I mentioned earlier.

E6 fixes the problem of PCs being too powerful to be challenged.

If you are going to use houserules this becomes trivial. Just infect the casters with a disease that is immune to conventional magical treatment and reduces their spell slots by 1 per day (cumulative), the spell level being randomly selected by rolling a d10. Oh yeah, and it interacts fatally with the energies of the astral plane (no teleport).

You force the PC's onto a time line so that they can't rest and recuperate after every fight, you provide an incentive for them to go into the dungeon/cave/wizards tower/etc., you weaken them enough so that they can't just bypass all your traps without making them unable to contribute, and you allow the non casters a chance to shine (the wizard is much less likely to just end a fight when he has fewer spells).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter charges.

NPC Wizard casts celerity >> Maze.

WAIT.

Party wizard casts celerity >> Maximized quickened twinned split empowered orb of force. 400 damage.

NPC wizard dies.

Party wins.

.....

Celerity + xxx beats any other instance you used.

No. Direct combat is not the way to do it.

Not if he's buried under an Iceberg...

[paddyfool]

I've never had to deal with this situation. However, what about a dungeon under spell effects from Epic spells? There wouldn't have to be any current epic spellcaster around; all the effects could simply be old security from when the dungeon was home to one. OK, it's basically the same as homebrewing, but the party are going to have to be afraid if they have any idea what they're up against even before the effects (whatever they are) start coming into play.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Emperor Tippy:
You misunderstand me. A golem still can't teleport. Golems and will-o-wisps can't speak (the former) and don't have functional hands (the latter) to employ verbal or somatic components or command words. And note that golems are large or larger-they can't fit in the dungeon in the first place. So yes, a wizard could be immune to the silence and dimensional anchor-but then he wouldn't be able to speak or teleport. Kind of self-defeating.

Theoretically speaking, you could disintegrate the walls, especially if you were shapechanged into a Beholder. But a smartass wizard may meet a smartass DM. The smartass DM will first animate the wall with animate objects then use a supernatural Temporal Stasis on it, making it invulnerable to anything save Pun-Pun and Epic Spells.

Wish works for travel. Usually. Attempt to travel to a place you have never seen before and the wish will still transport you regardless of local conditions. The local conditions might include obstacles such as trees, walls or lack of an open space-in which case you might become a permanent part of the landscape. The usual defence against Wish being used for travel into a building is a Ghost Trap (forces incorporeal into corporeal) and thin metal chains hanging from the ceiling every foot or so. The room is still usable-though the chains might be a bit annoying-but anyone that tries to teleport inside will have the room register as not an open space to magical travel.

There is also a way to stop Wish from transporting you out of a place but I never was a fan of dead magic zones. If you try to wish yourself in the face of a deity though? You might, just might, find that the deity has automatically applied Corrupt Spell to all magic (so all magic gets the evil descriptor) and then applied Limited Magic to evil magic. But that's cheesy. So the deity might instead use Instant Counterspell and Spellshift. Not only is your wish countered but the deity perverts it in a way of its liking just for the lulz.

[Vinotaur]

@Emperor Tippy:
You misunderstand me. A golem still can't teleport. Golems and will-o-wisps can't speak (the former) and don't have functional hands (the latter) to employ verbal or somatic components or command words.

Epic Wrong. Golems can speak just fine.

[Emperor Tippy]

Epic Wrong. Golems can speak just fine.

More precisely the rules don't say that they can't speak or use verbal components and they do say that any creature with an intelligence of 12 or higher can speak a language.

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus.

Link

[Weiser_Cain]

Trap someone they care about in the dungeon... oh wait these are adventurers.
Make the dungeon a trapfest and damaging just standing there (miasma) then provide an easy exit only to reveal there's a cluster+**< of dragons out there making time with archdemons on a plane of blades and sorrow. All teleportation seems ineffective and the only escape is through the dungeon, forcing them to trudge through it. If you want, make up some line (and mechanic) about how staying together lessen the damaging nature of the miasma, maybe the cleric's holy symbol.

[La_Carnaval]

Thanks, guys! Some of these suggestions are really great. The prismatic walls sound hilarious along with the shadow walls.

The only issue would of course be the wizard, which I could take care of pretty well with anti-magic fields. And I could take care of wish by finding something wrong with the request, since it's not too hard. Even if my players wished to be simply out of the dungeon, I could make a castle extend above ground and drop them there.

My group is really bad at working together so I don't think that trapping them there will be too difficult initially. But I like the miasma suggestion for that as well, since if they don't work together then they'll start taking massive damage(it also means that they won't take forever going through each room like they normally would...).