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2008-11-13, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
For an upcoming campaign i plan to focus stronger on a spirit realm -similar to the Umbra in those old Werewolf: the Apocalypse books or the twilight from that Russian Nightwatch stories - than usual. This will mostly ignore the standardised set-up of the multiverse. Some Demons and devils are nothing but names for certain forms of malevolent spirits, while celestial beings have a more positive view on mortals, other demons may be 'outside forces more similar to Lovecraftian Horrors who come from an even stranger place beyond the Spirit world. Gods are nothing but extremely powerful spirits, etc.
More relevant is, that most supernatural powers arelinked to the spirit world and that many beings are either completely (like most outsiders, feys or elementals) or partly spiritual beings. Mortals can enter the spiritual realm, but it is dangerous (as in if you die, you are completely gone and nothing short of divine intervention will ever change this) and very, very strange. This aspect of the spirit world is meant as an additional source for an imense sense of wonder.
Likewise, the spirit world is meant as a source of power, especially all forms of magic (in opposite to psionics, which are inheretely mortal and have no connections to the spirit world), and this is also the more complicated aspect. It is not that problematic with divine spellcasters - the term 'divine' is replaced by 'spiritual', Clerics are actually the servants of extremely powerful spirits, Spirit shamans act as a replacement for druids, and Paladins with the alternative Divine Spirit class feature works extremely well in this context.
Arcane spellcasters are more difficult. Besides the idea, that Familiars are actually animals which are possessed with a spirit (which grants them their increased ability) I have not yet too many explanantions. Have you a notion howw arcane magic can be connected to the spirit realm?
And, other question: Are there any D&D or thirds party books that deal with spirit or faerie realms? I haven't found much about this yet.
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2008-11-13, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
You might have it that arcane spellcasters are, essentially, necromancers, who use spirits to accomplish their goals. Or perhaps they can use the raw spirit stuff to forge their spells.
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2008-11-13, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
The perfect fighter fix.
Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!
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2008-11-13, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Originally Posted by streakster
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2008-11-13, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
From a non-D&D game I ran, but it's still applicable:
Animism is the idea that everything has a spirit, up to and including ideas. These spirits exist in our world and in another, though they are far more comfortable in their own realm.
Spirits are created through two things: belief and existence. The latter is more common: if the object/being exists, it has a spirit. However, concepts have spirits as well, and those spirits are created through belief.
An example: the Cedrist and Soloralist gods both exist in the Horjinic mindset, because they are believed in. If the followers of those religions were to turn away, these gods would weaken and eventually die. Similarly, new gods spring into existence (and definition) because followers come to them.
This is not true only for religion. There is a spirit of Shireroth, because it is, as a nation, an entity.
But there is not only one spirit of Shireroth; rather, there is the major spirit known as "Shireroth" and several other sub-spirits that are specific aspects of Shireroth, such as "Brookshire," "Shireroth-At-War," "Rebellious-Shireroth," and many others. These sub-spirits report to (and are ultimately controlled by) the greater spirit, "Shireroth."
This format holds true for almost all spirits. When enough power and belief is behind one spirit, it achieves godhood, similar to the Cedrist idea of Transcendence.
When this happens, the spirit takes a unique name and aspect, and becomes a god. For instance, the spirit "Hunting-Tiger" achieved power and belief enough to become a god, took the name "Horjin," and became the God of the Hunt.
Sometimes a spirit has more than one master. For instance, "Howling-Cave" will report to both "Wind" and "Mountain."
Ultimately, almost all spirits report to one of three main spirits, know and the Triumvirate: Earth-Mother, Sky-Father, and Moon-Sister. Only a few do not report to these, but instead report to the Muses: Organization, Creation, Alteration, and Destruction. Most who do not report to the Triumvirate are gods and ideas.
Horjin and Nelig are unique in that they do not report to the Muses; instead, they report to the Triumvirate, like most natural spirits. Horjin in particular reports only to the Earth-Mother.
Horjinic magic and Neligan magic are not really magics, per se, but are more a calling forth and manipulation of the spirits who are everywhere. The main process involved is a sudden increase in power and belief of a single spirit, allowing it the influence of a near-god for a single moment. But the way Horjinic and Neligan magics are designed, that belief is focused into a particular result.
For instance, say a mage wants to set something on fire. First he must offer a suitable sacrifice (usually something highly flammable), and then believe that the magic he desires will happen. The spirit consumes the offering and then fulfills the belief.
Some mages are known to work with "reversal magic." Using the example above, the mage would offer something cold instead (like an ice cube) and then believe that the spirit would go away. The cold spirits in the area would consume the offering and fulfill the belief, thus raising the surrounding temperature.
Reversal magic is inexact and dangerous, though results from it are frequently far more spectacular.
Horjinic mages also have patrons (known as totems), and this gives them a distinct advantage over the Neligan in that they will always, under any conditions, be able to call upon their totem's powers, frequently without an offering. Totem animals don't require immediate offerings, as long as they receive proper offerings later.Horjinic magic and Neligan magic are not really magics, per se, but are more a calling forth and manipulation of the spirits who are everywhere. The main process involved is a sudden increase in power and belief of a single spirit, allowing it the influence of a near-god for a single moment. However, the way Horjinic and Neligan magics are designed, that belief is focused into a particular result.
For instance, say a mage wants to set something on fire. First he must offer a suitable sacrifice (usually something highly flammable), and then believe that the magic he desires will happen. The spirit consumes the offering and then fulfills the belief.
Neligan mages are known to work with "reversal magic." Using the example above, a Neligan mage would offer something cold instead (like an ice cube) and then believe that the spirit would go away. The cold spirits in the area would consume the offering and fulfill the belief, thus raising the surrounding temperature.
Reversal magic is inexact and dangerous, though results from it are frequently far more spectacular.
Special Instances
Horjinic mages have totems, or guardian spirits. Because of the close bond between Hunter and totem, there is frequently no need to provide an immediate offering to the totem-spirit. As such, Hunters of the Stag usually practice paths of magic related to their totems.Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
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2008-11-13, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Fax, a well thought and well written text. In my world though the 'subjective' approach to Animism is too strongly focused on the idea that mere mortals can actively influence the fabric of reality. In my games, mankind (and the other sentient species) are normally not agents but more like... victims. I think that this potential of influence negates a bit the felt greatness of supernatural beings and I prefer to make those as awing as possible, which becomes harder this way.
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2008-11-13, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Doesn't ghost walk deal with this?
Or is that to undead?When the end comes i shall remember you.
I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.
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2008-11-13, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
That is... actually a pretty darn good idea.
Satyr: You ever hear of Anansi(Spider, from some African mythoseses)? Bre'r Rabbit? Any of the various trickster gods and that sort of thing? I'm getting the feeling that your world is this and what the Fey do to mess with humanity on a grand scale. Possibly the gods even occasionally do to people like Jehovah did to Job, royally screw them over because they were dared to/test them/for teh lulz.
Actually, the whole spirit world might operate under a "for teh lulz" mindset except when some actual order is imposed upon it.
(PS, what is this "@V" I sometimes see? Didn't see it in any lists of acronyms I've skimmed)Last edited by Coidzor; 2008-11-13 at 03:30 PM.
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2008-11-13, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
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2008-11-13, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-13, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Satyr: You ever hear of Anansi(Spider, from some African mythoseses)? Bre'r Rabbit? Any of the various trickster gods and that sort of thing? I'm getting the feeling that your world is this and what the Fey do to mess with humanity on a grand scale.
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2008-11-13, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-13, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2008-11-13, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Christopher Robin was meant to be transmogrified into The Eternal Child, eldest of the fey, that refuses to ever grow up. A very dangerous god, that is easily distracted and bored. Divine power and childish tantrums are a very dangerous combination.
Winnie the Pooh himself becomes the Old Bear in the Wood, the slow asnd simple yet wise (and very hungry) bear god, worshiped for healing and protection (and sometimees for turning into a berserk killing machine that devours anyobne who dares to oppose him.
Pigglet becomes Mother Sow, the mother goddess (in the German translation of the Disney version, piglet was either female or completely genderless). But I like godesses of fertility, and a large sow is a good cast for this role.
Rabbit becomes the Hare, a trickster spirit who plays tricks to the stupid and greedy and is something like an underdog hero who represents the triumph of cleverness over strength.
Tigger is the Great Lion, the cat-like goddess of hunting and warfare, a bit like a feline version of Ares. The most aggressive god and the patron of warriors.
Owl is just the Moon Owl, god (or goddess, in these levels of power, gender becomes quite meaningless) of knowledge and wisdom, but also of magic and enigmas. Oh, and he is extremely vengeful and stealthy if he wants to be.
Eeyore becomes the Black Stalion, symbol of doom and - sometimes - lecherousness. The Black Stallion is a death omen, and the nearest this pantheon has to a death god.
I jusst don't know yet what I'll do with the cangaroos.
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2008-11-13, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-13, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Kanga is the "mother figure", who acts as benefactor, protector, and gentle direction. Roo is the embodiment of youth and joy.
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2008-11-13, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
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2008-11-14, 05:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Kanga is the "mother figure", who acts as benefactor, protector, and gentle direction. Roo is the embodiment of youth and joy.
The problem is that cangaroos does not eaaly fit in the Roman/Celtic aesthetics I planned for the campaign.
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2008-11-14, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-14, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-14, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
As a creature that is in conflict with its own nature, add the portfolio of "Things Not In Their Proper Time and Place." Kanga'Roo is the patron of premature babies, early and late harvests (and by extension, Indian summers and such unseasonal weather). S/He oversees untimely accidental death and adopts as His/Her own people who recover from illnesses or wounds that should have killed them. His/Her attention is gained by performing rituals oddly: harvest rituals in the spring, dawn rituals at noon or dusk, and so on.
Being the patron of such causes and beings, it is all too appropriate that Kanga'Roo takes the form of a being that seems possibly natural but is not actually known to the lands of His/Her worshippers.
EDIT: Not to play up this idea TOO much, but I'll note that a marsupial gives birth and then continues to cart its young around in its body, adding another layer to the out-of-sync theme.Last edited by Lapak; 2008-11-14 at 02:01 PM.
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2008-11-14, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Why thank you! It was part of my "Why?" phase. You know, like why does writing a spell cost so much ( I decided that if you didn't use the right ink and procedures, it became a Grimoire).
It does work well - Wizards now barter for favors from spirits, while Clerics are sent a retinue of servants from their divine master, and druids converse with the spirits of nature. Sorcerers have a host of spirit friends. It also helps for fluff - Wizards have arcane servants (imps, fairies, creatures of legend, etc) while druids have animal and plant type buddies, and clerics call in angels and demons.
It makes detect magic more fun too - you don't see a necromancy aura anymore, you see a bone spider spirit.
Some oddities - ASF makes no sense now. To deal with that, I'd go with a Pact of Trust type deal - the Wizard shows trust by coming to the spirit unarmed. If he wears armor, the spirit might not respect him anymore.The perfect fighter fix.
Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!
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2008-11-14, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
We can throw in some other seemingly random attributes to these gods.
Also the God of weather and protection from it. (his raincoat)
Winnie the Pooh himself becomes the Old Bear in the Wood, the slow asnd simple yet wise (and very hungry) bear god, worshiped for healing and protection (and sometimees for turning into a berserk killing machine that devours anyobne who dares to oppose him.
Rabbit becomes the Hare, a trickster spirit who plays tricks to the stupid and greedy and is something like an underdog hero who represents the triumph of cleverness over strength.
Tigger is the Great Lion, the cat-like goddess of hunting and warfare, a bit like a feline version of Ares. The most aggressive god and the patron of warriors.
Eeyore becomes the Black Stalion, symbol of doom and - sometimes - lecherousness. The Black Stallion is a death omen, and the nearest this pantheon has to a death god.
...
These are all taken from various Pooh sources of the base character, but I think they fit the spirits. I like it -- it makes the spirits less one-dimensional.
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2008-11-14, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
Yakk, thank you for your addendums; you are right a Pantheon feels much more plastic and less artificial when rthere are legends and myths about the gods.
Originally Posted by Yakk
And mostly unrelated: Do you think that a 'Shapeshifter' a class with only the spellcasting abilities of the Ranger and the Druid's Wildshape would be able to contribute to the game? I would have great fluff for one of those, but I am not sure if it would be effective enough for the game (which does not include real druids, only spirit shamans).
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2008-11-14, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
The perfect fighter fix.
Hey, the magnificent Shades of gray made me the cool paladin! Give him a hand!
From time to time, I vanish from the boards. Like Frosty, though, I'll be back again some day!
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2008-11-14, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
It's not a question of balance - it is about people who are part spirit and can change their shape. While Shapeshift is certainly the better balanced version, Wildshape is just the version who is more fu to play and ofers more possibilities for creativity and self-realisation. Certainly, Wildshape is an open door for any form of abuse, but it also a great source of fun.
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2008-11-14, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
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2008-11-14, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
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2008-11-14, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-11-15, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 3.5 with a dominant spirit world
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