ECL of a Non-Advanced Pit Fiend?

[Gig_Complex]

Well this is the second thread asking for the help of my fellow playgrounders, I'm looking for the ECL of a Non-Advanced Pit Fiend. The reason I ask is I plan to create a Pit Fiend Monster class, which was inspired by Krimm Blackleaf's Balor Monster Class, and I have been unable to find a general consensus on it's ECL. Thanks in advanced to all who help me out with this.

[Vinotaur]

ECL according to WotC: Unplayable/ECL 40ish.

Actual ECL of a non advanced Pit Fiend: 21.

[hamishspence]

Epic Cohorts?- They provide a very rough estimate. Wizards tend to use HD plus Whatever They Select for ECL. Point is, the ECL system doesn't account for abilities that are comparable to player abilities at high level- fly, spell-like abilities, etc. In theory, the higher the HD, the lower the LA should be, by Savage Species (whose estimates are often even rougher)

LA tends to max out around +8 for Vampires- so- ECL 28 would not be entirely out of the ordinary.

[Starbuck_II]

Well this is the second thread asking for the help of my fellow playgrounders, I'm looking for the ECL of a Non-Advanced Pit Fiend. The reason I ask is I plan to create a Pit Fiend Monster class, which was inspired by Krimm Blackleaf's Balor Monster Class, and I have been unable to find a general consensus on it's ECL. Thanks in advanced to all who help me out with this.

18 HD + Blasmphemy at will at least 5 LA for that so I'd say LA 4-5 for rest of abilities:
So ECL 27-28.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Um, no. A Pit Fiend has one of the highest ability score totals in the game, yes. But for direct combat capabilities when compared with a human with 20 class levels? About even, maybe just a bit ahead. ECL 22-23. With its 18 racial HD, that's +4/+5 LA.

[Starbuck_II]

Um, no. A Pit Fiend has one of the highest ability score totals in the game, yes. But for direct combat capabilities when compared with a human with 20 class levels? About even, maybe just a bit ahead. ECL 22-23. With its 18 racial HD, that's +4/+5 LA.

Dude, 9th level spells at will!

[Vinotaur]

He doesn't have 9th level spells at will. He has Meter Storm once a day.

Compare a PitFiend to a full caster, or a decent gish build is you want.

But if he's ECL 28, then at level 20 he has +14ish BAB, some stats, and some SLAs that are much less useful then a Gishs spells. Oh and SLAs are at about CL 15.

Compare that to anything even remotely well built.

Blashphemy at CL 20 at will is really powerful at ECL 20, it is also completely worthless at ECL 25.

[mostlyharmful]

Honestly WotC sucks at setting high level ECL, I don't see anything (including the SLAs) worth more than +3 at those racial HD and that's erring on the side of caution. even with high stats and a decent racial HD they're still nowhere near a decently built melee or rogue and a caster would shread them from about 18 onwards.

[Starbuck_II]

He doesn't have 9th level spells at will. He has Meter Storm once a day.

Compare a PitFiend to a full caster, or a decent gish build is you want.

But if he's ECL 28, then at level 20 he has +14ish BAB, some stats, and some SLAs that are much less useful then a Gishs spells. Oh and SLAs are at about CL 15.

Compare that to anything even remotely well built.

Blashphemy at CL 20 at will is really powerful at ECL 20, it is also completely worthless at ECL 25.

Okay, remove Blasphemy and I'd lower LA by 5:
Leaving us with ECL 22-23.

[mostlyharmful]

Okay, remove Blasphemy and I'd lower LA by 5:
Leaving us with ECL 22-23.

Even with blasphemy it doesn't measure up to casters (who can also cast blasphemy plenty of times and boost their CL through the roof). Giving it a EL of +5 makes it equivilant to a 23rd level PC. No way is this thing close to an epic caster and every Barb, Rogue and Fighter will shishkebab it given a reasonable build. Even if they have the same WBL the class features you can get will knock it accross the room. Four level four PCs built as WotC builds them (ie, badly) are suppossed to kick their way through four of these things a day reliably.

Edit; also the blasphemy is CL 18 not 20 which makes a big difference on when it turns to pointless.

[hamishspence]

8 was an upper limit- doubt any monster really justifies a +8 LA, even vampires.

[Vinotaur]

Here's the thing.

CR is a measure of power. A CR 20 creature (Pit Fiend) is just as strong as a level 20 character. Pit fiends make up for not having spells that synergize with melee by getting decent ones at will.

The problem is, CL 20 Blasphemy is useless at level 20. So if you are giving them any LA at all, you should just assume they will never use their Blasphemy ever.

What LA actually represents is breaking the dungeon. Powerful at will abilities like Teleport or Power Word Stun allow a Pit Fiend to do "more" when facing an average dungeon crawl.

As soon as you realize that at level 20 no one is going to be doing an average dungeon crawl, breaking it doesn't matter.

It's only an issue of power, then a Pit Fiend is a level 20 character. Level 21 to make sure someone doesn't pick it just to abuse it.

I would be perfectly content to have someone play a Pit Fiend at level 20 with a regular party.

Especially because a level 20 Wizard can Planar Bind a Pit Fiend anyway, and then adventure with him.

[KillianHawkeye]

Especially because a level 20 Wizard can Planar Bind a Pit Fiend anyway, and then adventure with him.

I suddenly have the urge to do this in a game. Too bad nobody else in my group is willing to DM for standard D&D, much less Epic.

[Vinotaur]

I suddenly have the urge to do this in a game. Too bad nobody else in my group is willing to DM for standard D&D, much less Epic.

No need to go into Epic.

Any level 15 Wizard can adventure with a Pit Fiend pretty easily.

[KillianHawkeye]

No need to go into Epic.

Any level 15 Wizard can adventure with a Pit Fiend pretty easily.

But I couldn't play AS the Pit Fiend at 15th level, since everyone agrees that it must be at least a 20th level character. I just meant having the Wizard using the spell as an excuse for me to be in the party. And then I could betray them when the spell's duration ends.