[4e]Martial Power: Thoughts?

[TheEmerged]

No order implied.

1> I like the mechanic of swapping out one of your existing features for one that's listed here.

2> I like the Invigorating mechanic, and suspect my group's warrior will be taking those powers.

3> I also like the mechanic of powers that have advantages if you're trained in skills. So far they're mostly doing it for skills that class would have... but there's interesting potential here.

4> Did conventional wisdom say that Rogues needed better 2nd level utility powers or something? Adaptable Flanker comes dangerously close to being must-have... except for some of the others

5> On that subject, Handspring Assault (Rogue Daily) may end up being very popular. 3[w] attack that can be used with a charge, can shift 2 squares afterwards, AND it's reliable?

6> I'm still somewhat disappointed with how the Paragon Paths are shaping up. I can't really put into words why though. It's neither that they're too vague (most still just require a class, sometimes a class & race, and sometimes a particular class feature) nor too specific.

7> I'm intrigued by the 'companion' option for Rangers, but will have to see it in play before I say too much.

8> Might just be me, but the artwork quality here seemed somewhat thrown together with a couple of "I can draw too daddy!" pieces again.

9> A lot better on the feat selection this time around -- but we continue the pattern of the latter multiclassing feats often not being worth a feat slot or having too steep of a cost.

Other thoughts?

[Edea]

The halfling on page...91?...is total lollin'. Apparently his bones have been replaced with abstract art.

[amanamana]

8> Might just be me, but the artwork quality here seemed somewhat thrown together with a couple of "I can draw too daddy!" pieces again.

You mean like the goblin on AD&D MM?

[ImperiousLeader]

The art is a mix of recycled, gorgeous and horrid. Particularly bad are a lot of the Dragonborn pieces.

Right now I'm suffering from power overdose. The sheer amount of delicious crunch in the book is impressive. Still have to evaluate it.

[Kurald Galain]

4> Did conventional wisdom say that Rogues needed better 2nd level utility powers or something? Adaptable Flanker comes dangerously close to being must-have... except for some of the others

This may be because the errata on stealth makes the level-2 utility stealth power much less useful.

[Aahz]

This may be because the errata on stealth makes the level-2 utility stealth power much less useful.

Can you point me to (or summarize) that errata for stealth?

Also, can someone with MP summarize the Adaptable Flanker feat? Is it basicall the same as the 3.5 edition (you can choose to be flanking from any position you threaten IIRC)?

[Tengu_temp]

The halfling on page...91?...is total lollin'. Apparently his bones have been replaced with abstract art.

I think that's supposed to be a goblin.

...

Is his lowest limb an arm or a leg?

[Mauril Everleaf]

It's an arm. You can see the claws.

In any event, I have been rather impressed with the MP so far because, and this may seem weird, of how unimpressive it is. The whole thing seems so....balanced. Aside from the new options, this book doesn't really seem a whole lot better than the stuff offered in the PHB. More focused, but not better. Which, in my opinion, is amazing.

I just built myself a Beast Mastery Ranger. A drow with a spider. She doesn't seem to outshine my gnoll Two-Blade or my elf Archer. Sure, my drow acts differently, but she is supposed to. I like that.

I am actually a bit worried about how Invigorating stacks with itself. I can see how that could get abused. But, since my group sticks the dumbest character with the Fighter, I don't expect that I will need to worry about it.

The rogue options looked nice, but I would need to check them out a little closer to make any real evaluation. Same with the warlord.

The art was decidedly meh, which is so far the only really disappointing thing about the book, as far as I am concerned.

[RTGoodman]

I am actually a bit worried about how Invigorating stacks with itself. I can see how that could get abused. But, since my group sticks the dumbest character with the Fighter, I don't expect that I will need to worry about it.

That was my first response, too. Especially combined with the Battlerager, who gets a +2 bonus on attack rolls as long as he uses a certain weapon and has temporary HP.

The art was decidedly meh, which is so far the only really disappointing thing about the book, as far as I am concerned.

Yeah, but that seems to be the 4E standard. I'm very disappointed that they reuse so much art. I was thinking at first it might be a good way to make things cheaper, but it seems prices are staying the same or going up despite recycled art AND thinner books.


EDIT: Also, there's already THIS THREAD on the topic.

[skywalker]

My particular favorite was how the Defender of Sealtiel from the BoED(who looked like a very tall, defender type human) got converted into a halfling. That one's my favorite.

Anyway, I finally got a chance to peruse, I'm a lot more excited by the warlord powers than I thought I might be. I didn't get to look at the other stuff as much(wasn't interested, don't play those right now) but we'll see when I actually get the book.

But the warlord options were a lot better than I thought they might be. Interesting, at the least.

[Asbestos]

That was my first response, too. Especially combined with the Battlerager, who gets a +2 bonus on attack rolls as long as he uses a certain weapon and has temporary HP.

Well, they get a bonus to damage, not attack. Also, its worth noting that for the most part, the invigorating attacks deal less damage than other fighter powers of similar level (and very few of the dailies that have that keyword are also reliable)

[RTGoodman]

Well, they get a bonus to damage, not attack. Also, its worth noting that for the most part, the invigorating attacks deal less damage than other fighter powers of similar level (and very few of the dailies that have that keyword are also reliable)

Oh, huh, I guess you're right. I thought since it replaced the Fighter Weapon Talent (the +1 attack with your chosen type of weapon), it was to attack rolls. I guess that makes it fine, then. Glad you caught that.

[Jack_of_Spades]

So far, I like a lot of what got added. But, I have some comments and questions.

1. Why would any fighter not take Battlerager? I mean you don't get the plus one to hit with a type of weapon, but you get temp HP every time you get hit! And the invigorating at will just makes it even better!

2. Do animal companions add their ability modifier to an attack or their defenses? If not, why bother having them? Is damage really the only place they apply?

3. Rattling...seriously can there be one class that doesn't impose -2 to hit all day long?!

4. Flamebrow Commander. Make a human, get the Human perseverance feat and Stubborn Survivor (from Forgotten realms player's Guide. Then at level 11 your bonus to death saves, when you have no action points, is 3+cha mod. Hooray for not staying down!

5. The 12th level utility for the Inner Dragon. "Your hit points fall to your bloodied value, and you gain temporary hit points equal to the hit points you lost by using this power. Until you have no temporary hit points, you gain resistance to all damage equal to your Constitution modifier." Combine with Battlerager, 'nuff said.


Overall, it seems to be creeping closer to what I liked about 3rd ed and that's being able to do something really well. I think as more of these books come out characters will be A LOT more varied than in 3rd. The benefits of a Prestige class weren't usually that great unless you found some "winnning combination" that was really uber-strong.

[Kurald Galain]

1. Why would any fighter not take Battlerager?

Because a +1 to hit is rather important. Admittedly this is not such a great reason, though, especially since a fighter doesn't need to hit anybody to be an effective tank. I tend to agree that Battlerager is overpowered, not in the sense that it overshadows the rest of the party, but in the sense that there doesn't seem to be any crunch reason not to take it.

2. Do animal companions add their ability modifier to an attack or their defenses?

No, but they do apply to skills.

your bonus to death saves, when you have no action points, is 3+cha mod. Hooray for not staying down!

Yes, or simply play a Warforged. Nice but not all that impressive.

Overall, no codex creepy game breakers so far, which is a good thing, of course.

[Douglas]

Combine with Battlerager, 'nuff said.

Temporary hit points don't stack in 4e, even if they come from different sources. You'd get no benefit from Battlerager at all until the temp hp from Inner Dragon is almost all gone. If you're just talking about making the damage resistance never go away, though, then you might have a point - depending on exact wording and DM interpretation.

I don't have the book myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if some DMs interpret the combo to work like this:
1. You take damage
2. Check if temp hp are gone for Inner Dragon
3. Grant temp hp from Battlerager

Under that interpretation, the combo is nearly useless.

[Asbestos]

Temporary hit points don't stack in 4e, even if they come from different sources. You'd get no benefit from Battlerager at all until the temp hp from Inner Dragon is almost all gone. If you're just talking about making the damage resistance never go away, though, then you might have a point - depending on exact wording and DM interpretation.

I don't have the book myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if some DMs interpret the combo to work like this:
1. You take damage
2. Check if temp hp are gone for Inner Dragon
3. Grant temp hp from Battlerager

Under that interpretation, the combo is nearly useless.

That's a good point, Battlerager hp only stacks with invigorating hp.

But! If you have the Battlerager Vigor class feature then hp granted by invigorating powers stacks with ANY temporary hp. Battlerager Vigor temp hp does not stack with itself, or at least, it doesn't say so. So, as I described in an earlier thread, a level 1 fighter with 18 CON striding naked through a field of giant rats (level 1 minions) only takes 3 'real' damage. He walks out of the field with 4 temporary hp. If he uses his invigorating at-will every round then he is gaining 4 temporary hp 1/round, this hp will only decrease if it supersedes the hp gained from Battlerager. Meaning, a fighter has 4 hp from battlerager and 4 hp from an invigorating attack. He takes three damage. Either he now has 4 hp from battlerager and 1 hp from invigorating or he somehow preferentially takes damage to his battlerager hp, which will reset to 4 from the hit, and his invigorating hp is untouched.

[Mando Knight]

Temporary hit points don't stack in 4e, even if they come from different sources. You'd get no benefit from Battlerager at all until the temp hp from Inner Dragon is almost all gone. If you're just talking about making the damage resistance never go away, though, then you might have a point - depending on exact wording and DM interpretation.

Use Invigorating powers. The second paragraph of Battlerager Vigor is what he's getting at: Invigorating powers (like Crushing Surge, one of the new At-Wills) grant Temporary HP that will stack with other sources' temp HP if you're using Battlerager Vigor.

This makes a Dragonborn with an Executioner's Axe a nasty opponent...

[Asbestos]

Use Invigorating powers. The second paragraph of Battlerager Vigor is what he's getting at: Invigorating powers (like Crushing Surge, one of the new At-Wills) grant Temporary HP that will stack with other sources' temp HP if you're using Battlerager Vigor.

This makes a Dragonborn with an Executioner's Axe a nasty opponent...

He'll just have a crummier to-hit than other fighters... and therefor hit less often with his invigorating powers. We need Yakk to do some math

[Asbestos]

Can you point me to (or summarize) that errata for stealth?

Also, can someone with MP summarize the Adaptable Flanker feat? Is it basicall the same as the 3.5 edition (you can choose to be flanking from any position you threaten IIRC)?

Its a power, not a feat. And yeah, it works pretty much as you describe.


Question: Why would anyone take the Ruthless Ruffian class feature for rogues? (from a purely mechanical standpoint)

[Kurald Galain]

Question: Why would anyone take the Ruthless Ruffian class feature for rogues? (from a purely mechanical standpoint)

Yeah, I'm having trouble seeing that, as well. For a striker especially, clubs and maces are inferior to daggers, and strength bonus to rattling damage is less useful than strength bonus to sneak attack damage. The (very few) powers with extra effects for this feature don't help much either. Looks like reverse codex creep, actually

[Oracle_Hunter]

Can you point me to (or summarize) that errata for stealth?

Stealth Errata (and tons of other PHB Errata) can be found here. Check out the DMG Errata too for important changes on Page 42 DCs and Skill Challenges.

[Hzurr]

Its a power, not a feat. And yeah, it works pretty much as you describe.


Question: Why would anyone take the Ruthless Ruffian class feature for rogues? (from a purely mechanical standpoint)

I think Bugbears get a bonus using clubs & maces (I'm away from book right now), and it also opens up more weapon choices/feat options.

Overall, though, I think it's mostly flavor.

Question: Does it give you weapon prof with all clubs, or with just normal clubs? Because in that case, I sense a greatclub wielding rogue in the near future.

[Artanis]

I'd have to see the exact wording, but from what it sounds like, I'd be inclined to believe that it's the exact weapons "club" and "mace". The PHB has a Mace category of weapons, of which the club is a member. So unless MP added a category that does not include its namesake, I'd say just those two.

If there actually is a "Club" category and they're talking about the categories, then the greatclub would get a bonus due to being part of the Mace category.

Either way, being named "greatCLUB" seems to be irrelevant.

[Jack_of_Spades]

He'll just have a crummier to-hit than other fighters... and therefor hit less often with his invigorating powers. We need Yakk to do some math

+1 to hit is useful, but not better than gaining temp all the time. A 4th level fighter with 18 strength and a +1 longsword, and the weapon talent has +11 to hit. I think it's much more beneficial to keep a small damage shield on you than have that +1.


Also, does anyone else think of Ender Wiggin when they read the resourceful warlord entry?

Oh, and just noticed neat ability in a rogue paragon path. Slaying Action "(11th level): When you spend
an action point to take an extra action, you gain a +2
bonus to each damage die until the start of your next
turn."
Stuff like this drives me crazy because I CAN'T MAKE ALL THE CHARACTERS I WANT AT THE SAME TIME!

[TheEmerged]

Question: Does it give you weapon prof with all clubs, or with just normal clubs? Because in that case, I sense a greatclub wielding rogue in the near future.

The exact wording is that you are proficient "with the club and the mace". There is not a 'club' weapon class but there is a 'mace' weapon class. However, if that refers to the mace *class* it's redundant to say you are also proficient with the club since the club is a member of the mace class.

As such I'd say it's the singular weapon named club and the singular weapon named mace, not the class thereof. Your DM may vary, naturally

As to why you'd take it? To add your Strength modifier damage to any power with the Rattling keyword. This is in addition to any damage the power already does, you realize...

[Asbestos]

+1 to hit is useful, but not better than gaining temp all the time. A 4th level fighter with 18 strength and a +1 longsword, and the weapon talent has +11 to hit. I think it's much more beneficial to keep a small damage shield on you than have that +1.

Yeah, but don't a lot of the invigorating powers give bonuses for axes and hammers? Also, the battlerage vigor feature seems to push fighters towards axes, hammers, and picks. All weapons with only a +2 proficiency bonus.

[Jack_of_Spades]

Yeah, but don't a lot of the invigorating powers give bonuses for axes and hammers? Also, the battlerage vigor feature seems to push fighters towards axes, hammers, and picks. All weapons with only a +2 proficiency bonus.

Yeah, and the encounter Invig powers aren't very good if you ask me. I'm using a longsword, wearing heavy armor, and using the Invig at-will when I'm not using Tide of Iron. So far, it's been working incredibly well and has helped my fighter stay on his feet longer.

I'm starting to think the basic Fighter WEapon Talent need a little something extra to be equal to the Tempest and Battlerager. Like +1 to damage or something.

[clericwithnogod]

This may be because the errata on stealth makes the level-2 utility stealth power much less useful.

Actually, the Stealth errata makes the 2nd level stealth utility power almost a must have if you want to use Stealth. By RAW, it lets you make a stealth check, which, in combination with the rules for remaining hidden, makes it possible to use Fleeting Ghost in an area with cover or concealment rather than superior cover or total concealment.