Optimal Non-Leathal?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Two things

1. I want to make a character for an upcoming game that optimizes on non leathal dmg. I see alot of things like Merciful weapons and what not and I was curious if there is a way to optimise on non leathal dmg?

2. I am working on some NPC bounty hunters for a freinds campain. Which i also wanted to capitalise on non lethal dmg as his players havn't had alot of experiance with it and he'd like to mix it up a bit.

So any advice?

[Telonius]

Build your melee monster starting with one level of Ranger, take Skill Focus (Gather Information), then dip one level of Justiciar (from CWar). The "Bring em Back Alive" feature lets you deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal, at no penalty. The whole Justiciar PrC is based on the idea of a bounty hunter, so you might want to look at it if you're building an NPC.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Build your melee monster starting with one level of Ranger, take Skill Focus (Gather Information), then dip one level of Justiciar (from CWar). The "Bring em Back Alive" feature lets you deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal, at no penalty. The whole Justiciar PrC is based on the idea of a bounty hunter, so you might want to look at it if you're building an NPC.

Interesting are there any feats the incease non lethal or your ability to deal non lethal...

I actualy saw the justicar and i belive blood hound too from Cadventurer i belive?

[Heliomance]

If Justicar lets you do non lethal with anything at no penalty, just build a standard damage-monster with levels in Justicar.

[shadow_archmagi]

If Justicar lets you do lethal with anything at no penalty, just build a standard damage-monster with levels in Justicar.

Yeah. I see no reason to not just do the ole' shock trooper power attack thri-kreen with one level in justicar.

[Duke of URL]

For a good, no, make that Good, character, some of the Exalted "Vow" feats may help out.

[RagnaroksChosen]

So then other then justicar there is no other way to increase non lethal? well and besides merciful?

[Heliomance]

What's wrong with Justicar? It's the best way to improve non-lethal damage, because it makes any normal damage boostr improve non-lethal. And goodness only knows there are enough ways to boost your damage output.

[Mephit]

You could also look at the Book of Exalted Deeds.
3 feats in particular:

Subduing strike lets you deal non-lethal damage without penalty, and you can convert sneak attack damage into nonlethal damage as you desire as well.
Holy subdual (with SS as a prereq) lets you also convert the damage from a holy sword or any smite damage.
Righteous Wrath lets you deal nonlethal damage during rages.

This gives you more than enough option to go for any flavor you want.
You can go for Justiciar for the bounty hunter style, rogue for more sneakiness and skills, a 'holier than thou' agressive Paladin (think Miko) or an insane barbarian who has enough controle to just knock his opponents out instead of chopping their heads off.

Just pick one of those feats or the PrC, and just look around here and the CharOp boards for optimal damage dealing choices.

[RagnaroksChosen]

What's wrong with Justicar? It's the best way to improve non-lethal damage, because it makes any normal damage boostr improve non-lethal. And goodness only knows there are enough ways to boost your damage output.

theres a 50/50 chance the DM won't want PRC's in there game...


Edit: Mephit Thank you. I guess ill have to search crystal keep for any others thanks any way guys.

[Heliomance]

Nowhere near that level. The vast majority of DMs allow PrCs, and those who don't will probably say Core only. If you're playing Core only, pretty sure the only way of doing non-lethal is to suck up that -4 penalty.

[Duke of URL]

Nowhere near that level. The vast majority of DMs allow PrCs, and those who don't will probably say Core only. If you're playing Core only, pretty sure the only way of doing non-lethal is to suck up that -4 penalty.

Or play a Monk. Come to think of it, that -4 doesn't sound so bad...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Nowhere near that level. The vast majority of DMs allow PrCs, and those who don't will probably say Core only. If you're playing Core only, pretty sure the only way of doing non-lethal is to suck up that -4 penalty.

He just has wierd tastes when it comes to what to allow and not... hes not core only he just doesn't like PRC's i think he belives there to abusable or soem thing no idea... thats mainly why i was asking about feats and races if there are any...
I didn't think of unarmed dmg mabye an unarmed monk rogue... with asthetic rogue.

[Gao]

Ooooooooor you could just take a merciful weapon for the extra d6 nonlethal and all damage being nonlethal, or just take that Nonlethal Damage feat from Book of Exalted Deeds, as opposed to wasting two precious character levels on crappy classes?

The rest of your damage should be power attack, leaping charge, biggest greataxe you can find, etc.

[MeklorIlavator]

Rogue with a sap? Or a Merciful weapon. If you want to deal lots of nonlethal damage, don't make a monk: its really hard to do significant amounts of damage with one, and if generally involves multiple Prc's.

Really, Here's the best method I can think of:
Weapon: +1 Merciful 2handed weapon.
Class: any full BaB class
Feats: Power attack, Leap attack, Shock Trooper

Remember that while using power attack with a weapon wielded in 2 hands you double the bonus to damage. Leap attack multiplies this number further assuming you make a jump check, and Shock Trooper allows you to take the penalty to your Ac instead of your AB.

[Fax Celestis]

Beguiler + Maximize Spell + whelm spells works too, if you want to be all casty-like.

[Telonius]

Ooooooooor you could just take a merciful weapon for the extra d6 nonlethal and all damage being nonlethal, or just take that Nonlethal Damage feat from Book of Exalted Deeds, as opposed to wasting two precious character levels on crappy classes?

The rest of your damage should be power attack, leaping charge, biggest greataxe you can find, etc.

One level of Ranger and one of Justiciar aren't any crappier than Fighter. A first-level dip in Ranger is a very common way to get lots of skill points and a better Reflex save. Justiciar gives you 2 more skill points and a good Will save. The only thing you're foregoing are 1 hitpoint and two feats. (One fighter feat, and a feat lost to the prereq). There are better things to put on your weapon than Merciful, if those options are available to you. Remember, that +1 cost becomes more expensive the more enhancements you put on your weapon.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I realy like the imagry for Blunt weapons and merciful... so mabye a 2handed blunt weapon... great club or some thing...


Also where is whelm found?


and if i have a merciful weapon as lets say a duskblade. would all my spell dmg also be non leathal?

[MeklorIlavator]

Also where is whelm found?

Whelm is in the PHB2.

and if i have a merciful weapon as lets say a duskblade. would all my spell dmg also be non leathal?

I don't believe so. The entry for spell channeling says that after all weapon damage is done the spell takes effect, so I think it would still do lethal damage.

[Gao]

One level of Ranger and one of Justiciar aren't any crappier than Fighter.

2-level dip for more HP and two feats is better than 2 level dip for two sub-par classes that will not have any other benefit towards what you want; nonlethal damage up the shorts. Besides, who said anything about FIGHTER? I'm talking about Barbarian.

A first-level dip in Ranger is a very common way to get lots of skill points and a better Reflex save. Justiciar gives you 2 more skill points and a good Will save. The only thing you're foregoing are 1 hitpoint and two feats. (One fighter feat, and a feat lost to the prereq).

What's so important about skill points? This isn't about skill points, this is about optimizing the most amount of nonlethal damage possible.

There are better things to put on your weapon than Merciful, if those options are available to you. Remember, that +1 cost becomes more expensive the more enhancements you put on your weapon.

The extra d6 damage is good, adds to the point of the optimization, and better than another +1 to hit/damage. Really, past +1 weapon, all bonuses should be item enchants that give effects; bonuses to hit and damage is what lol Greater Magic Weapon is for.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Whelm is in the PHB2.

I don't believe so. The entry for spell channeling says that after all weapon damage is done the spell takes effect, so I think it would still do lethal damage.

thank you..



Also +1 merciful is only 4k

edit:
Geo: yes that is what Greater magic is for but would't casting it every day/fight be a waste of a 3rd/4th leve spell...

[MeklorIlavator]

Also +1 merciful is only 4k

No, a +1 merciful weapon is 8k. See, when you add special qualities to a weapon you don't act as if the weapon is a +1+1 weapon, you act as if its a +2 weapon.

edit:
Geo: yes that is what Greater magic is for but would't casting it every day/fight be a waste of a 3rd/4th leve spell...

Not really. Once you get up to higher levels its a useful buff that lasts all day, and its not like there's a bunch of better options, and at the lower levels it isn't as necessary as you aren't expected to have a High bonus. Also, most special qualities are better than a +1 bonus.

[Telonius]

If we're talking barbarian, then he's down by one feat, 2 hp, 1 point of DR, 1 rage/day, and +2 to Strength and Con during rage. He's ahead by 16 skill points, 1d6 nonlethal sneak attack, 2 reflex, a favored enemy, track, wild empathy, and however much the +1 costs in gp (probably at least 18,000).

EDIT: Or, just changing that Merciful enhancement to another +1 to the weapon puts him equal to the Barbarian for damage (though not ahead for any gp) - all the time, not just during Rage.

Skill points are important. Leap Attack, for example, requires 8 ranks in Jump. Add in Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, and you can have even more options available to you. Twisted Charge, a skill trick which benefits charge attacks, requires 5 in Tumble and 5 in Balance. Extreme Leap - also useful for mobility in combination with Leap Attack - requires 5 in Jump. Spot the Weak Point can, in certain situations, allow you to make your charge end in a touch attack, and requires 12 ranks in Spot. All of the Skill Tricks cost skill points to obtain.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Actually, the most effective subdual character is a sorceror with the Subdual Substitution metamagic feat and then Arcane Thesis for a few select spells.

Suddenly, not only you deal subdual damage but also your spells are at -1 spell level you can use for other metamagic.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, the most effective subdual character is a sorceror with the Subdual Substitution metamagic feat and then Arcane Thesis for a few select spells.

Suddenly, not only you deal subdual damage but also your spells are at -1 spell level you can use for other metamagic.

Yep, Cindy and her Orb's of Unconsciousness.

[Thurbane]

2 handed Merciful weapon with a decent crit range (and/or crit modifier) and the usual suspect feats: POwer Attack, Leap Attack etc...

[Stupendous_Man]

Yep, Cindy and her Orb's of Unconsciousness.

You mean, breasts?

[Harp]

Since we're toying with the idea of non-lethal casters and taking a lot of stuff from the BoED, Vow of Nonviolence is fairly easy way to get +4 to all spell saves (or any check that requires a saving throw, for that matter). Of course, it also implies you force a moral code on the rest of the party and they take penalties for violating it, thanks to the wonkiness of the wording. Since it's a 3.0 and there's clearly a lot of stuff that should have been improved with that particular volume, it is something you would want to discuss with the DM and perhaps even the rest of the party before taking.

Also, you can't ever use lethal damage against humanoids (including monstrous humanoids) after taking the feat, which might be a big turn off. It also prohibits things like poison and other goodness.

[Thurbane]

BoED is 3.5, not 3.0. It's a common misconception, most likely because BoVD is 3.0

[Quietus]

For fun, get a +1 Vicious Merciful weapon. +3d6 subdual damage on any attack you make, and you take 1d6 subdual as well. Sadly, it's 18k, but 3d6 extra damage is pretty sweet, and since the retributive damage from Vicious would be subdual, it's healed at a much faster rate - particularly if you receive magical healing, where it'll reduce your subdual AND lethal damage.

Actually, that right there is why it's better, if you're going to do subdual damage, to get your whole party to do subdual. Otherwise, any cure spells your opponents receive work double time on both lethal and subdual, effectively making them twice as good.