[3.5e] Entirely Core Sorceror

[Uin]

I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.

Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Rational for some of the choices
Feats: I don't think I'll be allowed Archmage, unfortunate since its handier for a Sorceror than Wizard.
Lightning Bolt: Well I may need to do damage at some point, this can be empowered to replace 5th lvl damage spells.
Stinking Cloud: To be replaced with Haste once I have Acid Fog.
Lack of Polymorph: I'm not sure how ridiculous I want to be yet.

I know theres the Batman Guide (useful) and the Solo Guide (not so useful).

[BRC]

If you've got a decent dex score, Pick up Scorching Ray. a 2nd level spell that deals 12d6 damage as a touch attack is nothing to laugh at.

[Jack_Simth]

I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.

Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Let's see....

You've got your "No save, just suck" debuff (Ray of Enfeeblement), your Will save or Suck (Glitterdust, Slow), and your Fort Save or Suck (Baelful Polymorph, Stinking Cloud). You've also got a combat control (black tentacles), and anti-caster effects (Dispel Magic... although at level 12, Dispel Magic is generally going to be a wasted action, as anything you want to dispel will normally have a caster level higher than yours, and Dispel Magic is capped at +10). You've also got your defenses (mirror Image, Grease, Mage Armor, Improved Invisibility), and your combat maneuvering (overland flight, Dimension Door). You're lacking a Reflex Save or Suck (Web and Resilient Sphere being my favorites).

I personally tend to be fond of the Shadow line of spells (not for the obvious effects of mimicing direct damage, but for the less obvious ones - Phantom Steed and the like). I'm also fond of the Planar Binding line (even with the number of spells known you need to burn to make it work), especially for Sorcerers (charisma synergy) because it lets you prepare for an upcoming, known encounter (Call the perfect outsider, rather than Preparing the perfect spell).

[Mephit]

I'm not entirely sure why you have Invisibility on there if you have the 4th level version of it in your spells known. It's not as if there are so many situations where using a 2-level higher spell slot isn't worth the advantages...Like Jack_Simth mentioned, I'd trade it for Web. (Or BRC's Scorching ray)

[Keld Denar]

Aye, reflex save. Resiliant sphere is good. I forget, is Bands of Steel core? Thats a decent Reflex save vs lose.

I'd suggest maybe Heighten Spell. At the cost of your move action, you can use some of your lower level save vs suck spells as higher level spells. This ensures that you always have the most powerful spell for the job available. Really need to target a weak will save, but need more than a DC18-20? Heighten Glitterdust up to level 6 and nail em with DC22-24 depending on caster stat. Makes it so you only need 1 spell for each save, as long as you aren't too dependant on your move action. Better than empower for you atm, get it later.

Also, no Solid Fog? Man, that spell is KILLER. Then again, there are SOOOOO many good 4th level spells. No save, no SR, just spend 2+ rounds getting out of it, or teleport. Either way, 1-2 foes are pretty well screwed for long enough for your party to regroup and whack them 1 at a time as they come out of the fog. Since you don't have Freezing Fog (non-core) I'd highly suggest picking up SF asap. Maybe swap up from Dim Door to Teleport and replace Dim Door with SF. Its really that good. I've knocked dragons out of the sky with it (provided they don't have maneuverability feats or that one magic item) since you can cause them to stall. Its pretty badass, IMO.

EDIT: Scratch that advice about Heighten. I just saw you have it. Don't mind me, I'm just sitting in an airport drinking heavily. :P

[Ent]

Maybe throw a summon spell somewhere in there? They're very useful in and out of combat.

[Iku Rex]

Looks like a pretty good list.

Feats:
Get Greater Spell Penetration.
Silent Spell would be nice as well, to make sure you can always dimension door away from a bad situation.

If you pick more ray spells, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot just might be worth it. (Though with a good Dex you'll hit most of the time even with the -4 penalty.)

Consider dropping:
Identify and see invisible can be replaced by scrolls. The entire party should chip in on scrolls of identify. See invisible can be useful of course, but it's not needed that often unless you were planning on using it as a standard buff. Even without a scroll you still have glitterdust.

You're close to the point where mage armor can be replaced with bracers of armor at a reasonable cost.

Shatter is not very useful.

Stinking cloud seems unnecessary to me.

Do you really need both baleful polymorph and disintegrate? (Fort save effects.)

Consider getting:
Alter self (troglodyte) provides AC goodness without the full polymorph effect.

Rope trick is a great way to rest safely. Alarm is an alternative.

Haste is good enough that I'd start with it instead of stinking cloud.

Heroism is a good buff.

Enervation is a solid spell at level 4.

I'd get resist energy or protection from energy.

[Keld Denar]

Do you really need both baleful polymorph and disintegrate? (Fort save effects.)

Disintegrate is also known as Greater Open, which adds a large degree of OOC versitility to the spell. Door what?

[mostlyharmful]

Scrap the Overland Flight and get a phantom steed instead (Made available by getting rid of direct damage Lightning Bolt, see TLG guide). Direct damage is almost always a waste of an action for a mage and even if it is on very rare occassions a good choice you've already got the core direct damage spell worth taking in disintigrate. You can shove Solid Fog or Resilient sphere into the new 4 slot. The steed moves faster, moves on its own so you don't waste that action and takes a lower level slot... unfortunately it's moderately vulnerable to being shot out from under you but hey, if you didn't want to take risks you wouldn't be an adventurer.

I'm surprised you don't find the Solo guide more useful than TLNs work given Solo uses the ninjas work as a jumping off point to specialize in sorcs. in core. which is exactly you.

[Iku Rex]

Disintegrate is also known as Greater Open, which adds a large degree of OOC versitility to the spell. Door what?

It never even occurred to me that he'd drop disintegrate out of the two.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Empowered Scorching Ray deals 18d6 and is a 4th level spell. That's 63 damage. Not bad if you go against undead, nongolem constructs and other humans that tend to be highly resilient to save-or-lose stuff.

Also, ditch Lightning Bolt and replace with Fireball. Save-or-lose is good until you realise the enemy archers have a range of 300+ feet and your save-or lose spells can't reach. Fireball is useful because of its massive range (1100 feet in your case).

[Jack_Simth]

Empowered Scorching Ray deals 18d6 and is a 4th level spell. That's 63 damage. Not bad if you go against undead, nongolem constructs and other humans that tend to be highly resilient to save-or-lose stuff.

Also, ditch Lightning Bolt and replace with Fireball. Save-or-lose is good until you realise the enemy archers have a range of 300+ feet and your save-or lose spells can't reach. Fireball is useful because of its massive range (1100 feet in your case).

That's the other reason for Resilient Sphere: you can cast it on yourself, buff to your heart's content, and laugh at almost any archer that shoots an arrow at you. Then Dimension Door to within range.

[Hal]

Are you married to being pure Sorcerer? A two-level dip in Paladin will net you a lot and still let you get 9th level spells.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've always been a huge fan of the solid fog-grease-black tentacles combo. Make them pass three or four checks with a five foot step as a prize.

[Stupendous_Man]

Wouldn't grease make it easier to escape black tentacles?

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't grease make it easier to escape black tentacles?

It would certainly reduce the effectiveness of Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion...wait, you still have your mages learn the boring Evard's version?

[Zeful]

It would certainly reduce ingrease increase the effectiveness of Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion...wait, you still have your mages learn the boring Evard's version?

Lube makes those kinds of things easier, not harder.

[Flickerdart]

Lube makes those kinds of things easier, not harder.

It makes it less harmful to the target, silly.

[monty]

It makes it less harmful to the target, silly.

The physical part isn't where most of the damage comes from...

[Flickerdart]

The physical part isn't where most of the damage comes from...

Hm, well...that really depends. Those spikes look pretty vicious.

[monty]

Hm, well...that really depends. Those spikes look pretty vicious.

Fighter can shrug off a sword to the face. I think they can handle that part.

[Eclipse]

I'm not entirely sure why you have Invisibility on there if you have the 4th level version of it in your spells known. It's not as if there are so many situations where using a 2-level higher spell slot isn't worth the advantages...Like Jack_Simth mentioned, I'd trade it for Web. (Or BRC's Scorching ray)

This is just a guess, but it might be because the 2nd level invisibility lasts a lot longer the the 4th level greater invisibility, and is better suited to stealthy things that might take some time. Invisibility lasts for 1 min/lvl., whereas greater invisibility lasts for 1 round/lvl.

[Harp]

Looks like a pretty good list.

Alter self (troglodyte) provides AC goodness without the full polymorph effect.

This is one of the better suggestions I've seen. Alter Self has applications beyond giving yourself a lot of Nat AC. Keep in mind it lasts quite awhile (10 mins per level) so you can generally cast and forget it. Trogs are the typical favorites because they are the humanoids that provide the most nat AC, but Lizardmen come in a close second and do not take the hit to their move speed. There are other various humanoids you can turn into for disguises or to gain new movements (in core I think the only move speed you can acquire as a humanoid is a swim speed).

In my opinion, you should get See Invisibility off the list. Glitterdust does the same thing and has an offensive component. While See Invis might be a little more subtle and longer lasting, how often do you think you're going to fight invisible opponents?

I'd also say replace Identify with Protection from Evil (or whatever alignment you'll be up against the most in the campaign). Assuming the group has a cleric or wizard that can cover this buff typically, Shield , Magic Missile, and Color Spray are all useful replacements.

Shatter's an okay pick, but I'd probably replace it with Scorching Ray. Any object that you'll want to destroy at this level is almost certainly going to be magical, making this spell by RAW useless (unless you're fighting a lot of crystaline creatures).

Fairly solid character though overall. I'm a big fan of practical core builds.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Acid Fog, Freezing Fog isn't as dangerous, but it also uses Grease on the area. Apart from Shatter (which I'd replace with Rope Trick), that looks like a good spell list.

[Stupendous_Man]

Regarding Acid Fog, Freezing Fog isn't as dangerous, but it also uses Grease on the area. Apart from Shatter (which I'd replace with Rope Trick), that looks like a good spell list.

Wand rope trick! Never a spell!

An Extended Wand of Rope Trick @ CL 5 costs as much as a wand of a third degree spell.

Cheaper at CL 4, and provides the 8 hours of cover you need. Bit expensive, but you really want to have something that scales better as a spell known at higher levels.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Snag Shadow Conjuration. It gives you Greater Mage Armor, Phantom Steed, and any number of other useful spells.

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about forgetting about Wands. If you can get one of those, tkae Scortching Ray rather then Shatter (Shatter will proably make you unpopular with party members who need weapons and equipment).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I made a thread similar to this about a year ago, but for very low levels. Now I'm going to take part in a game from lvl 12. Obviously sorcerors have a tight limit on spells known so I'm not after reems of options, but what would you have as your ultimate sorceror spell list and what would you change in mine? Feats too, although this is made significants easier in core with the small selection.

Okay, and here's my advice for you

Feats
1: Improved Initative, Spell Penetration
3: Extend
6: Empower
9: Heighten
12: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Ouch. Just... ouch. Most of the metamagic feats you picked up are not worth the price of excrement on a ranch.

Extend is worthless. The only time you want it is when you can't afford the +1 SL cost. Now that you're 12th level, all of your hours/level spells will be effectively all day, and the rest of them will last throughout combat.

Empower is usually not effective, it's generally a false economy. However, with Enervation, it's generally worth it, but that's about the only case I can think of offhand.

Heighten is moderately useful if you're using a lot of lower end save-or-screwed effects, basically jacking up saves to your highest level save.

Spell Penetration isn't very useful either, a +2 is not going to help one way or the other.

My suggestions:

Still and Silent Spell and Eschew Materials. With these three feats, your spells cannot be counterspelled, because you give no indication what spell you are casting. Still spell also means getting out of grapples and being able to cast in armor.

Why Spell Focus (Transmutation)? Granted, if you're going to take Spell Focus,that's the school to do it in, but why? Have you a specific build in mind which requires it (like Archmage)? By itself, it generally underperforms, but it can be a useful part of a powerful combo.

Spells
1: Mage Armour, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Identify, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Shatter, Invisibility, See Invisible
3: Slow, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic
4: Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Improved Invisibility
5: Overland Flight, Baneful Polymorph
6: Disintegrate

Rational for some of the choices
Feats: I don't think I'll be allowed Archmage, unfortunate since its handier for a Sorceror than Wizard.
Lightning Bolt: Well I may need to do damage at some point, this can be empowered to replace 5th lvl damage spells.
Stinking Cloud: To be replaced with Haste once I have Acid Fog.
Lack of Polymorph: I'm not sure how ridiculous I want to be yet.

I know theres the Batman Guide (useful) and the Solo Guide (not so useful).

Why do you think you're not going to be allowed to get Archmage? Sure, the requirements are pretty steep, and worse for a Sorcerer than a Wizard, but still... it's not impossible. DM Fiat or something?

Mage Armor is a good choice, since you're core and can't get Twilight Mithral Chain or some way of mitigating the 10% ASF without resorting to Still Spell.
Grease is an excellent choice, I commend you on it.
Ray of Enfeeblement... it's okay, although it's a penalty not stat damage.
Identify... isn't worth it to be known for a Sorcerer. It costs 100g per casting. If you're casting it enough to be worth a spell known, you're going to run yourself out of money. Scroll it, don't learn it.
Silent Image can be a very useful spell.

Glitterdust and Mirror Image are two of the best 2nd level spells, I congratulate your wisdom in these choices.
See Invisible is also another good choice, so you can see what you have to glitterdust to show your allies.
Invisibility... why? You already have Mirror Image, which is better. Unless you plan on casting this on the party rogue, in which case Greater would be better.
Shatter... if you have Disintegrate, you really don't need this.
I suggest grabbing Scorching Ray for damage output instead of Shatter.

Slow and Dispel Magic are both wonderful choices.
Stinking Cloud is also another VERY handy spell to shut down casters with.
Lightning bolt... isn't. Let's face it, because it's a line, and you're likely not going to be in front of everyone else, you're probably going to be hitting an ally with it. Try Haste or better, Greater Magic Weapon.

Your 4th level spells are perfect, I couldn't have chosen any better. Grab Resilient Sphere next level when you get another 4th level spell known.

Baneful Polymorph is a good spell, but you're hitting a lot of Fort saves, and not a lot of anything else. Diversity is king. Feeblemind is a good one for shutting down casters. Teleport is probably going to be better for the party than Overland Flight. Don't replace Stinking Cloud with Acid Fog, replace it with Cloudkill. Much better spell that still does stat damage on sucessful save.

Disintegrate is a wonderful spell.

[Triaxx]

Extended Improved Invisiblity. Perhaps the only way to actually use the spell to any effect. That said, an Improved Invisible Leap Trooper is a very hard foe to fight because it does tons of damage and you don't know where they are or who they are going to hit next. Also good for a rogue.

Lightning Bolt is not a great damage spell. It is good for P/Oing certain large enemies, such as Ogre's or bosses into trying to smash your sorceror into goo. Combine with a Major Image and Invisibility. Leave everyone to the sides, out of sight of the door, but in reach. The enemy charges at the Major image, stopping to attack it. One square shy of where you actually are, while being subjected to party size number of AoO's. And since you were invisible behind the Image casting the spell, it's thus harder to disbelieve.

Funny thing about Shatter. See the thing about Shatter is that you can in fact target, say bones. Rather hard to concentrate no matter your class if your thighbone has been shattered into a few thousand pieces. Or think if your skull just exploded inside your helmet.

Magic Missile over Identify. Eventually you'll have Will-o-wisps thrown at you and being able to do damage to them when everyone else spends full attacks with no PA doing nothing but whiffing, is a very good feeling.

[Stupendous_Man]

Funny thing about Shatter. See the thing about Shatter is that you can in fact target, say bones. Rather hard to concentrate no matter your class if your thighbone has been shattered into a few thousand pieces. Or think if your skull just exploded inside your helmet.

Parts of the body are not objects.