Adventures Vault Vehicles: Clearly Never PlayTested.

[DoomHat]

My fellow 4E enthusiasts, I present to you a cautionary hypothetical.

Team Generic, a four character party, has just reached level 10 and realized that if they split the cost between them, they could have their very own Greatship for less then a magic 8th level magic item a piece.
It is huge and glorious. Forty feet wide and a hundred feet long, this seaborne titian requires the services of no less the 20 NPC lackeys to operate at full effectiveness. Little do they know however, it is apparently crafted entirely from papier-mâché.
Wasting no time, Team Generic sets out for their first adventure on the high seas. It isn’t long before, Le Gasp! A random encounter with a Fen Hydra on the port side! Not to worry, it’s only a 12th level solo monster, with a little time and gumption, it’ll be but a memory.
Ahh! But what’s that sneaking up on the starboard side? It’s a team on goblins on a rowboat (an exotic and mysterious craft for which no information can be found) being pulled along by a par of riding sharks!
But this is merely a level 3 encounter group, four Cutters, four Warriors, and two Sharpshooters. What could they possibly hope to achieve?
While Team Generic is distracted with the Hydra and its four reach attacks a round, the Gobs set to work.
The Gob Cutters are first level minions. They have an attack of-
+5 Vs. Ac; 4 damage
The Gob Warriors are first leverl Skirmishers, their ranged attack is-
+6 Vs. Ac; 1d6+2 damage
The Gob Sharpshooters are second level Artillery. Their bolts do-
+9 Vs. Ac; 1d6+4

The Greatship is Gargantuan war vessel capable of carrying 200 medium creatures along with 500 TONS of cargo….
… It has an Ac of 4.
In the name of sportsmanship, let us say that over the course of 10 rounds (one minute) each Gob with roll two automatic misses on their attack rolls. Given that-
The Cutters will do 112 damage
The Warriors will do an average of 160 damage
The Sharpshooters with do an average of 128
For a total of 400 points of damage, which is handy, because that’s the EXACT number of hit points a Greatship HAS!

Over the course of exactly a minute, ten Small creatures armed only with rusty knives and pointed sticks can completely dismantle a Gargantuan FLOATING FORTRESS.

That’s not the half of it. No vehicle has a ref defense higher then 5. Any level 3 wizard with Icy Rays can send an Airship spiraling out of control so long as he doesn’t fumble. You throw slow effects into the equation and the mind boggles.

What the hell WotC? WHAT. THE. HELL?!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Not to support anything about 4.0, but I noticed some issues.

Ahh! But what’s that sneaking up on the starboard side? It’s a team on goblins on a rowboat (an exotic and mysterious craft for which no information can be found) being pulled along by a par of riding sharks!
But this is merely a level 3 encounter group, four Cutters, four Warriors, and two Sharpshooters. What could they possibly hope to achieve?
While Team Generic is distracted with the Hydra and its four reach attacks a round, the Gobs set to work.
The Gob Cutters are first level minions. They have an attack of-
+5 Vs. Ac; 4 damage
The Gob Warriors are first leverl Skirmishers, their ranged attack is-
+6 Vs. Ac; 1d6+2 damage
The Gob Sharpshooters are second level Artillery. Their bolts do-
+9 Vs. Ac; 1d6+4

Where are the 20 NPCs right now? I'm sure 20 anything can take out a level 3 encounter.

Over the course of exactly a minute, ten Small creatures armed only with rusty knives and pointed sticks can completely dismantle a Gargantuan FLOATING FORTRESS.

If you assume they're breaking through the side, yes it's a bit odd. However, assume you have a stick. Now assume you're trying to break a ship. It has a wooden hull(I assume). Your initial action is going to be holing it below the water line. Anything afterward is just icing, it will die unless someone interferes.

That’s not the half of it. No vehicle has a ref defense higher then 5. Any level 3 wizard with Icy Rays can send an Airship spiraling out of control so long as he doesn’t fumble. You throw slow effects into the equation and the mind boggles.

Rapidly cool the metal in your car's engine. See how well your hydraulics work afterward.

[DoomHat]

It's my understanding that non-combat oriented NPCs tend to be non entities during combat. Also, they could doubtlessly count as minions. You think Team Generic is going to risk even ONE of them being eaten by the Hydra?
Besides all that, the point is that you are not likely to get any trouble from gobs that near paragon level, but you will get paragon level monsters trying to kill you and your ship, and if it's even POSSIBLE for gobs to sink you then how tough do you think it would be for a full encounter at your own scale?

Massive vehicles are paragon and higher scale items, nothing of a level lower then 8 should have any significant impact on them. But I have shown that they do. The do hardcore. And that is crazy.

[BobVosh]

Is there no system of siege damage or dr on the ship? Hardness? Because I'm impressed it is possible to use arrows to shoot a ship to death.

[DoomHat]

Not a single word on the subject. I tried looking for rules for damaging objects in the PHB and the DMG, but to no avail.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there no system of siege damage or dr on the ship? Hardness? Because I'm impressed it is possible to use arrows to shoot a ship to death.

Hey, it works in Warcraft

(just like everybody knows you can set a building on fire by repeatedly punching it...)

[Oslecamo]

Hey, it works in Warcraft

(just like everybody knows you can set a building on fire by repeatedly punching it...)

I'm pretty sure the laws of physics say that if you rub/beat two things togheter, their temperature rises.

This is, you try geting a dozen guys with swords beating an animated tree that coughs up elfs and then we'll talk.

[hamishspence]

Vehicles being weak may be a little silly, but Vehicles being too strong might be worse.

Airships- for the inflatable kind, a certain fragility is to be expected. Harder to explain for the flying ship kind though.

Sea ships- a monster smashing the side in with head or tail is a classic trope.

[lord_khaine]

Sea ships- a monster smashing the side in with head or tail is a classic trope

unfortunately in this case its 10 goblings with arrows doing the job of the seamonster.

[hewhosaysfish]

I'll admit that the fact that the rules don't differentiate between arrows and axes can produce some odd outcomes...
But ten guys left entirely unmolested for one minute chopping a hole in the side of a ship and sinking it? Perhaps a little quick but wooaah! crazy madness!!"

[Knaight]

That said DR would deal with this issue easily, so that should have been kept in.

[GoC]

Vehicles being weak may be a little silly, but Vehicles being too strong might be worse.

Airships- for the inflatable kind, a certain fragility is to be expected. Harder to explain for the flying ship kind though.

Sea ships- a monster smashing the side in with head or tail is a classic trope.

There was a pretty large inconsistency on how damage capabilities scale with size in 3.5. I assume it's the same in 4e.
Doesn't make any sense that goblins can take an ironclad down with arrows though...

[Starbuck_II]

There was a pretty large inconsistency on how damage capabilities scale with size in 3.5. I assume it's the same in 4e.
Doesn't make any sense that goblins can take an ironclad down with arrows though...

Actually, remember these Goblins were attacking unmolested: you never leave something to attack you.

And I thought Goblin Cutters didn't have ranged weapons...how did they attack a floating ship?

[hamishspence]

it may be an artefact of the fact that D&D 4th ed take the approach that All damage is the same.

if target was a high level adventurer, one mighty blow from a big monster does the damage that a group of small monsters would take a while to do.

But applied to an object, treating all damage the same, leads to a hail of arrows sinking a ship, just as a few mighty blows would.

in 3.5, piercing attacks weren't as damaging to objects as bludgeoning.

But in 4th ed, type of damage makes no difference.

Does this view make sense- that its not a matter of objects being unusually fragile, but of all damage being treated the same way?

[Kris Strife]

Hey, it works in Warcraft

(just like everybody knows you can set a building on fire by repeatedly punching it...)

In Warcraft different weapon types work better than others for different jobs.
Plus Blizzard corrects errors for free rather than making you buy a $30+ expansion pack book. Oh, wait... Never mind. (this is a Starcraft 2 complaint BTW)

[Quellian-dyrae]

Ironically, should the force on the other side of the boat be an epic-level wizard, the ship becomes a juggernaut of endurance, able to take somewhere in the vicinity of ten meteor swarms before going down.

[Grynning]

That said DR would deal with this issue easily, so that should have been kept in.

It was, to a certain degree, it's just now another type of "resistance". A houserule fix would be to give all vehicles resistance to all (or just physical/untyped) damage based on their size, maybe 5 for large, 10 for huge, 15 for gargantuan, etc.

[Mando Knight]

Quick fix (without precedence in any of the books...): state that vehicles can't be damaged by an opponent of a lower level than its captain/commander/pilot (provided the commander is on board), whichever is most appropriate for the vehicle, unless the attacker has fire and is on board. This keeps real threats (black dragons, hydras, Kraken...) threatening, but prevents Ninja Goblin Mook from hacking at your rudder while you aren't looking. The "on ur deck, hackin' ur shipz" clause allows for players to get on board and scuttle the ship while fighting off the pirate captain.

[Roderick_BR]

Question 1: Which species of goblins will be brave enough to approach a ship being attacked by giant sea monsters?

Question 2: Won't anyone notice a bunch of goblins approaching in a boat, starting to make holes, and call one of the adventurers? I guess Team Generic can space a member for some rounds to deal with some level 3 goblins.

That said, yes, someone making holes in a ship will make it sink. See Titanic, for example.

[Starbuck_II]

That said, yes, someone making holes in a ship will make it sink. See Titanic, for example.

Wait, so the ice berge story was a conspiracy and the Titanic was sunk by raiders?
Somehow I believe it.

[mikeejimbo]

Hate to put a hole in and sink your complaint, but it's a good thing these "rowboats" don't exist, or we'd be up the creek without a paddle.

[Artanis]

Ahh! But what’s that sneaking up on the starboard side? It’s a team on goblins on a rowboat (an exotic and mysterious craft for which no information can be found) being pulled along by a par of riding sharks!
But this is merely a level 3 encounter group, four Cutters, four Warriors, and two Sharpshooters.

That's a big rowboat to fit ten goblins in it

[Draco Dracul]

Wait, so the ice berge story was a conspiracy and the Titanic was sunk by raiders?
Somehow I believe it.

Ah, so another has realized the the truth.

[Da Beast]

Wait, so the ice berge story was a conspiracy and the Titanic was sunk by raiders?
Somehow I believe it.

Apparently by raiders with crossbows.

[RS14]

I don't have the Adventurer's Vault, but I think part of the problem is that you're seeing the ship as nothing but transport and a different battle map. Four adventurers simply aren't adequate as the combatants of a ship.

Take an Athenian trireme. Wikipedia tells me that the typical crew consisted of 170 rowers and 10-20 marines. I'd take that to indicate that the crew of this ship should consist of 17-18 sailors and 2-3 low-leveled combatants who would be up to defeating the goblins. Also recognize that the large area to be defended and the difficulty of closing in melee makes the encounter a bit more difficult, thus justifying the extra help.

You probably also want a ritual to repair the ship. Does one exist? If not, it should. It's reasonable for it to take damage, but it should stay afloat for at least a few encounters.

[Artanis]

After looking through the three core books, AV, and even the Artificer article, I don't think that this problem exists. It's blatantly obvious that the MM entries carry with them the caveat that, in large part, RAI is RAW. The goblins' attack powers, like the vast majority of monster powers in the MM, don't specify what is a valid target the way a PC power entry would, so if the DM isn't supposed to take RAI (the goblins being able to use the attack on the PCs), the game instantly ceases to work.

So the situation becomes this: like with targetting the PCs, the DM has to decide whether a greatship is a legitimate target for a goblin's attempt to actually hurt the thing. So the only way by RAW for goblins to hack and shoot a greatship to death with hand weapons is for the DM to decide that yes, it makes sense for them to be able to do so.

And if your DM is going to pull that, then he's killing the ship via DM fiat, regardless of what method he's using.




Oh, and the comment about Icy Rays tearing the ship a new one? It doesn't work by RAW since as a PC power, it does have to specify all the valid targets. It would have to specify objects as a valid target (like Force Orb and Disintegrate do), but it only says it can target creatures. So no shooting Icy Rays at a boat.

[Yahzi]

I don't think that this problem exists.

It's exactly the problem DR was meant to solve. Look for DR's triumphant return in 4.1e.

[skywalker]

Ah, so another has realized the the truth.

That makes me sad.

Actually, remember these Goblins were attacking unmolested: you never leave something to attack you.

And I thought Goblin Cutters didn't have ranged weapons...how did they attack a floating ship?

They're in a boat.

[DoomHat]

After looking through the three core books, AV, and even the Artificer article, I don't think that this problem exists. It's blatantly obvious that the MM entries carry with them the caveat that, in large part, RAI is RAW. The goblins' attack powers, like the vast majority of monster powers in the MM, don't specify what is a valid target the way a PC power entry would, so if the DM isn't supposed to take RAI (the goblins being able to use the attack on the PCs), the game instantly ceases to work.

So the situation becomes this: like with targetting the PCs, the DM has to decide whether a greatship is a legitimate target for a goblin's attempt to actually hurt the thing. So the only way by RAW for goblins to hack and shoot a greatship to death with hand weapons is for the DM to decide that yes, it makes sense for them to be able to do so.

And if your DM is going to pull that, then he's killing the ship via DM fiat, regardless of what method he's using.

You make excellent points. However the problem is just that.
The rules for vehicles, rules in a game revolving around combat, do not seem to take combat into account. The DM should not have to make this kind of ruling, because they damn well ought to have been made explicit.

Oh, and the comment about Icy Rays tearing the ship a new one? It doesn't work by RAW since as a PC power, it does have to specify all the valid targets. It would have to specify objects as a valid target (like Force Orb and Disintegrate do), but it only says it can target creatures. So no shooting Icy Rays at a boat.

Then I am made to wonder why it goes into the subject of effects that target maneuverability if player powers are not meant to be a concern at all.

ALSO!

As for you lot poking holes in the goblin analogy, you miss the point entirely. I was just trying to show how pitifully easy it is to utterly destroy these vehicles with little effort. I would not expect a Greatship to come up against Gobs. I WOULD however expect it to come up against Sea Devils, Blue Dragons, and Aboleths oh my. They can do a damn site more damage per round and have no fear of molestation by NPC grunts.

[Artanis]

You make excellent points. However the problem is just that.
The rules for vehicles, rules in a game revolving around combat, do not seem to take combat into account. The DM should not have to make this kind of ruling, because they damn well ought to have been made explicit.

Then that's a problem with the MM, not the vehicle rules. Like I said, in the vast majority of cases, the MM is not even explicit on whether or not a monster is allowed to attack the PCs, much less a target that's categorized as an object. While this judgement is easy and obvious ("well duh they can attack the PCs"), technically, he has to make this judgement every time he decides to have a goblin try to stab Urist the Dwarf Fighter.

Then I am made to wonder why it goes into the subject of effects that target maneuverability if player powers are not meant to be a concern at all.

I can think of plenty of things that both A) are not player powers, and B) could inflict status effects on vehicles. The first thing that came to mind is a wagon getting stuck in a mud hole that, mechanically speaking, inflicts the Immobilized effect on it. You could probably do that with the DMG section on terrain hazards.

ALSO!

As for you lot poking holes in the goblin analogy, you miss the point entirely. I was just trying to show how pitifully easy it is to utterly destroy these vehicles with little effort. I would not expect a Greatship to come up against Gobs. I WOULD however expect it to come up against Sea Devils, Blue Dragons, and Aboleths oh my. They can do a damn site more damage per round and have no fear of molestation by NPC grunts.

Again with not necessarily being able to actually attack the ship. Yes, it would be quite reasonable to decide that it can, in fact, damage the ship. Actually, that would actually be a pretty good premise for an encounter, having to stop a dragon or something that's trying to sink the boat.

However, one showing up in the middle of a fight where the PCs are distracted and cannot stop it would still be DM fiat. Saying, "oh yeah, while you're fighting the pirate boarders, an Aboleth shows up and starts whacking the boat, and you have two rounds to stop him before he sinks it" is little different than saying that goblins show up and start hacking the boat in the middle of a fight, or saying "rocks fall, everybody sinks...unless you clear the rocks this round."


Now, the point of giving it HP? Again, situations where the DM wants the players to worry about the ship being wrecked BUT them being able to do something about it. The situation I mentioned where they're trying to keep something from sinking the boat would be one. Some sort of warship firing magic cannons at it (edit: and the PCs firing their own cannons back) would be one. Saying that something starts attacking the boat and there isn't a damn thing the players can do about it, on the other hand, is where you don't bother with HP and just say it sinks in X rounds.