Maximal DC per a level [3.5]

[Grey Paladin]

Starting with an 18 INT Human Wizard and without using any cheese or PrCs, what's the maximal DC you can reach each level?

[Yukitsu]

Starting with an 18 INT Human Wizard and without using any cheese or PrCs, what's the maximal DC you can reach each level?

Define cheese.

[Grey Paladin]

Pun-Pun/Hulking Hurler/Uber-charger/etc

Abusing multipliers/poor wording/WotC idiocy for combos that are clearly not intended.

[Keld Denar]

Assuming wbl and spending it on a +int item first?

1 17 (4 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 1 spell level)
2 same
3 18 (4 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 2 spell level)
4 19 (5 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 2 spell level) +2 int item
5 20 (5 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 3 spell level)
6 same
7 22 (6 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 4 spell level) +4 int item
8 23 (7 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 4 spell level)
9 24 (7 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 5 spell level)
10 25 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 5 spell level) +6 int item
11 26 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 6 spell level)
12 same
13 27 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 7 spell level)
14 same
15 28 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 8 spell level)
16 29 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 8 spell level)
17 30 (8 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 9 spell level)
18 32 (10 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 9 spell level) +5 int Wishes
19 same
20 33 (11 stat, 1 focus, 1 greater focus, 9 spell level)

Unfortuately, the way Tomes and Wishes are worded, in order to get the maximum bonus, you have to do it all at one time. Thus, I put the +5 all at once sometime between level 17 and 18, assuming enough time to scribe scrolls of Wish or craft a Ring of 3 Wishes, although technically it could be as early as what, level 7 when you can Lesser Planar Bind a Noble Efreet and chainwish, but at if you are abusing that, you don't really need save DCs.

BTW, a gnome could do it better, between the racial +1 to DCs and ScM abuse with Earth Spell and Heighten Metamagic. By 17th level, you could be lookin at a DC easily 3-4 points higher (by casting a spell from a 9th level slot that is effectively a level 12 or such spell).

Oh, snap, I forgot. You could bump all those DCs about another 1.5 points by "retiring" during your first level until you reach venerable age, but thats kind of dangerous...unless you are a Dragonwraught Kobald. Kobalds too it better too!

[Grey Paladin]

You've saved me a lot of work fiddling with the WBL, thanks!

[ericgrau]

No single item can exceed 1/4 your WBL. So +2 int gets moved to level 7, +4 to level 11, +6 to level 14.

[jcsw]

Why do you exclude the possibility of PrCs, though? Are you regulating those?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, human really makes this harder. There's a lot that's possible with a Venerable Gnome Shadowweave Beguiler. Not to mention the Sandstorm veil that gives +2 to Enchantments.

[Grey Paladin]

I'm finishing my full rewrite of 3.5 classes/races/spells, and needed the exact numbers so I can replace all the 'Good: 50% success, Bad: 30% success' with a less abstract representation (AKA actual numbers).

[Mephit]

It also depends on how far you want to take this. If you take the Vow of Nonviolence, that's a +4 DC to your spells. But of course, you can't harm anyone then.

And does anyone know if the Spell Focus(Alignment) feats of CDiv and BoED stack with spell focus?

[SoD]

No single item can exceed 1/4 your WBL. So +2 int gets moved to level 7, +4 to level 11, +6 to level 14.

Can you quote a source for that (I use the same rule, but don't ever remember ever seeing it written down. Ever)?

[ericgrau]

Can you quote a source for that (I use the same rule, but don't ever remember ever seeing it written down. Ever)?

It would be hard to find. Wealth by level isn't even in the SRD, intentionally. You need the DMG for that. So I'm not sure what search terms to use to find it again (assuming it's even in the SRD). I didn't know about it until someone pointed it out to me.

Check page 135 of your DMG. That's where the WBL table is. Look around and get back to us.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

An actual rule of 1/4 of your WBL per item is moot. Assuming you have all your WBL of your previous level spent on items already, any new items can't cost more than the difference of new WBL - old WBL... which happens to be pretty close to 1/4 WBL anyway.

If you want an item costing more than that you'd either have to enhance previous items (which takes a lot of time and increases cost by 50%) or sell previous items at half price thus having the item you want cost a lot more in the end.

[ericgrau]

IMO 1/4 WBL also protects the player. You're better off grabbing a ton of cheap +1's from other sources, getting other minor magic items, etc. than grabbing another +1 to your spell save DC while having nothing left for anything else, which a lot of people might be tempted to do.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, a 5th level Grey Elf Enchanter with a 20 starting Int, a +2 int item, a Veil of Alure, Sacred Vow and Vow of Nonviolence would have a DC on Suggestion of 13 + 6(int) +2 (Veil) +4 (VoNV) = 25, which is rather ludacris. An equal level CLERIC with similar gear would have a +4 (+5) (+1) or about a +10 will save, meaning that he'd need a 15 or higher on a d20 roll to save against a Suggestion to sit down and shut up. Never mind a 5th level fighter...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Middle-Age Gnome Shadowcraft Mage at level 12 gets a DC of 10 + (Int 18 + 3 + 1 + 6 =28) 9 Int + 9 Heightened Silent Image + 2 Greater Spell Focus + 2 Minor Esoterica + 2 Ability Focus = DC 34 from a 6th level spell slot, which can emulate any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell of 8th level or lower, at caster level 19, which is 110% real regardless of their disbelief save.

[Leewei]

DCs can be reasonably boosted by +2 at lower levels using fox's cunning spells, scrolls or potions rather than a Headband of Intellect. The drawback is that you don't get the extra spells per day. The Arcane Consumption feat from PHB2 allows you to boost a single save DC by +4. A Human character can get this by level 3 (Toughness, Arcane Toughness prerequisites taken at level 1). Combining this and a fox's cunning spell will allow you to cast a single 2nd level spell at level 3 with a DC of

10 + 2(spell level) + 4(Arcane Consumption) + 6(Int:22) = 22 (at level 3)

I'm pretty sure the PHB2 has a spell that is cast as a Swift action that will increase the effective level and save DC of your next spell, however I'll be darned if I remember its name and level.

[Leewei]

Found the spell. Mystic surge -- Sor/Wiz 4. It increases the subsequently cast spell's DC by 2 as a standard action. Figuring a scroll of this into the mix earlier on (700gp -- not much of a bargain), you can boost save DC by 2 more on one selected spell. At or above level 7, you can simply cast it, of course.

[jcsw]

Middle-Age Gnome Shadowcraft Mage at level 12 gets a DC of 10 + (Int 18 + 3 + 1 + 6 =28) 9 Int + 9 Heightened Silent Image + 2 Greater Spell Focus + 2 Minor Esoterica + 2 Ability Focus = DC 34 from a 6th level spell slot, which can emulate any Evocation, Conjuration (Creation) or Conjuration (Summoning) spell of 8th level or lower, at caster level 19, which is 110% real regardless of their disbelief save.

No prestige classes. See first post.

[Person_Man]

Can you debuff as well? There are a ton of ways to lower your enemies' Saves, which is the same thing as raising your DC.

[Grey Paladin]

De/buffs are not included on purpose: they're supposed to tip the scale to the side of the caster.

Still, if you can name relatively persistent ones that are easy to keep up, go ahead.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

De/buffs are not included on purpose: they're supposed to tip the scale to the side of the caster.

Still, if you can name relatively persistent ones that are easy to keep up, go ahead.

Shaken/Frightened/Panicked. Most of the ways of inducing them have a save, but it is possible to stack it so the first round you cause them to need to roll about 5d20.