Monk Build with houserules

[Eloel]

Before anyone starts with the monks are underpowered, or monks are fine as they are, here are the houserules that buff monks
# Monks do not gain slowfall, instead recieving a bonus fighter feat at each level they recieve or improve upon the ability. They must meet prerequisites as normal
# Monks may enchant their unarmed strike as though it were a masterwork weapon. The monk must be present for the entire time, however
# Monks and paladins may multiclass freely

Assuming Monk's Belt and Greater Unarmed Strike stacks, I get full attack at level 11, and it improves no further. I'm using Half-Giant, which also increases unarmed damage size, and Improved Natural Attack increases it further. The question is, 3 levels in which class would improve it EVEN further?
Starting ECL is 15, I had LA buyoff for Half-Giant, so I'm at 102k XP.

Also, for example, could I by RAW, have a Half-Giant Half-Minotaur character for Huge Size damage?

[Adumbration]

You could grab couple levels of Psychic Warrior for Expansion for another two size categories.

There's also a prestige class called Fist of the Forest in Complete Champion that improves the unarmed strike dice twice, plus gives you constitution to AC. It has some rp requirements though. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries from Draconomicon does the same over 10 levels minus the AC, and as a capstone you get to shapechange into a dragon.

[goram.browncoat]

monk/psychic warrior or monk/wilder with monastic training and tashalatora feat from secrets of sarlona. Also pick up metamorphosis with expanded knowledge.

Enlarge + metamorphosis into something sizeable (mountain troll (huge) f.e.) = good size increases to damage. No need to pick a large LA race since metamorphosis makes base form inconsequential. Pick up quicken power to be able to buff in one round. Use other size increasing stuff like improved natural attack for added pain.

AC powers such as inertial armor will compensate for the lack of armor while still retaining the monk AC bonusses.

Powers like vampiric weapon combine well with high base-damage weapons like colossal sized monk fists.

[playswithfire]

monk/psychic warrior or monk/wilder with monastic training and tashalatora feat from secrets of sarlona. Also pick up metamorphosis with expanded knowledge.

Enlarge + metamorphosis into something sizeable (mountain troll (huge) f.e.) = good size increases to damage. No need to pick a large LA race since metamorphosis makes base form inconsequential. Pick up quicken power to be able to buff in one round. Use other size increasing stuff like improved natural attack for added pain.

AC powers such as inertial armor will compensate for the lack of armor while still retaining the monk AC bonusses.

Powers like vampiric weapon combine well with high base-damage weapons like colossal sized monk fists.

Monk/War Mind with Tashalatora is always good.
Stub:
LA/
Monk Improved Unarmed Strike,monk[Improved Grapple],feat[Education]
Monk monk[Monastic Training]
Monk feat
Monk fighter
Monk
Monk monk[Improved Trip],fighter
War Mind
War Mind
War Mind feat[Tashalatora(War Mind)]
War Mind
War Mind

BAB 9 for those 11 levels, with 3 more to take
Full flurry + sweeping strike + improved trip = lots of attacks in a full attack

The other three levels can be Fist of the Forest, more War Mind, or whatever else you like.

Fewer power points than the wilder option, but better BAB and hit dice.

[Eloel]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=95512
Here's the finished build, would anyone care to comment on it?

[Demons_eye]

Take 3 levels of FoF for unamred damged uped 3 times Also get SuS from ToB for 4 more levels of monk unamred damge also Monks tattoo gets you 5 more levels of monkness. If you can spare 2 levels go sword sage and then Shadow sun ninja for an abilty that lets you heal allies for unamred damge then hurt bad guys for unamred damge.

[Eloel]

Take 3 levels of FoF for unamred damged uped 3 times Also get SuS from ToB for 4 more levels of monk unamred damge also Monks tattoo gets you 5 more levels of monkness. If you can spare 2 levels go sword sage and then Shadow sun ninja for an abilty that lets you heal allies for unamred damge then hurt bad guys for unamred damge.

Monk's Belt + 11 levels of Monk + 3 levels of Tattooed Monk + Superior Unarmed Strike = 23 levels of Monk for Unarmed Striking. More would essentially be useless (I'm thinking of dropping Superior Unarmed Strike, as I'll reach full attack in 3k xp anyway)

[Demons_eye]

Monk unamred damge only goes up to 2d10 that why you take only 7 levels of monk. Monk+Belt +tatto+SuS=20 levels of monk then you take other things like FoF and Improved natrual attack to up the die not the monk levels to ge like 16d8.

[Eloel]

Would someone else comment/criticize/TRANSLATE please?

[Demons_eye]

You take 7 levels of monk and get the belt that 5 more levels so 13 level unamred damge. Then you get the tattoo for 4 more levels, 17 total so far, SuS for 4 more maxing you 2d10 unamred strike. You take 3 levels of FoF 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8. You take Improved natrual attack 16d8 Unamred strike at level 10, you take a level of Sword sage for some moves then take a level or two in Shadow sun ninja. They have a Class ability that lets you heal your allies for your unamred strike 16d8 but you have to hurt you foes with it befor healing again. You also get about 18 effective monk levels. 7 monk 5 belt 4 tattoo 1or2 SSN.

Edit if you still want some speed take the quick trait and get some boots then you got about 60 base land sped with this build.
Edit:Edit: Mixed up your speed bost with slow fall you get about 7 feat from slow fall and +60 base speed

[Eloel]

What book is FoF in?

[Heliomance]

Complete Champion

[Eldariel]

Complete Champion. Fist of the Forests - gets you Con to AC too.

[Eloel]

That explains a lot, the only book I don't have o_o

[Demons_eye]

Fist of the Forest is in Complete Champion.
Edit:ninjed

[Prometheus]

OP: Build an unarmed swordsage (That's a joke).

[Eloel]

OP: Build an unarmed swordsage (That's a joke).

That better be :)

Also, I somehow accessed FoF. It seems to improve unarmed strike 4 times, and not thrice, not that I'm complaining, but is it that way? (1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8-1d10)

[Eloel]

Tweaked it a bit, now it deals 24d8 damage/hit? (Someone confirm this please :))
1 step increase from racial
7 step increase from monk levels and monk's belt and SUAS (totals level 20) (1d3 to 2d10 in description)
1 step from INA
4 step from FoF levels (1d3 to 1d10 in description)

1d3 - 1d4 - 1d6 - 1d8 - 1d10 - 2d6 - 2d8 - 2d10 - 4d8 - 6d8 - 8d8 - 12d8 - 16d8 - 24d8

That doesn't seem right, and it also does at the same time. Confirmation please...
With 6 attacks/turn with 4 being at +24, and with 2 cleaves/round, that looks potent enough to kill 3 enemies/round. (not every enemy can stand 24d8+11 damage)(average 119 per hit)

(Those are calculated without me using an enlarge person potion, I have 50 of them)

Edit: Looks like my DM allows me to buyoff the LA and still have 15 class levels (somehow). That means I have another level :) Can that level be used to increase the damage output further, or somehow be used to increase attack rolls? (every +1 counts)

[playswithfire]

Fist of the forest only bumps you two levels. It only increases the damage at first and third levels. See the part where it says: If you already do more damage than what it gives, increase the base damage to the next step indicated by the monk table. Note, steps, not sizes; they aren't the same thing.

Steps, as I read it, overlap with things like the monk's belt and superior unarmed strike. A medium monk 5/fist 3 would deal 2d6 as if it were a 12-15th level monk. I base this on the fact that the d8->d10 change happens as the monk gains levels not sizes.

Also, unless your DM is being nice, Half-Giant's aren't treated as Large creatures for the purposes of unarmed strike damage. They're still medium.

Powerful build only makes them considered large in the following situations:

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him.

Note that, again unless your DM is being nice, you still only do medium unarmed damage; large once you take INA.

So you're doing the unarmed strike damage of a large level 20 monk (since unarmed damage doesn't progress past 20) or 4d8; huge and 6d8 if your DM counts Half-Giants as large.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Unrelated to your unarmed damage question, if you aren't doing anything psionic, why not be a Goliath instead of a half-giant and get 2 more strength

[Eloel]

mind every "size increase" is 1 step increase. That's quite clear with the small/large monk attack table.


1- Goliath has ECL higher than 1 (maybe even HDs). That's a loss.
2- Goliath is already large, being big doesn't always help (assuming half-giant gives me the increased damage)

[playswithfire]

But you only get one size increase; from improved natural attack. Everything else effectively advances your monk level and that stops mattering at level 20.

A size increase is not the same as a step increase. That's very clear in the monk table.

Look at monk level 4-7 medium damage; one step up from d8 is d10; one size increase from d8 is 2d6

[Eloel]

But you only get one size increase; from improved natural attack. Everything else effectively advances your monk level and that stops mattering at level 20.

11 monk levels, SuS and Monk's Belt make a flat 20, nothing else increasing monk levels.

[playswithfire]

11 monk levels, SuS and Monk's Belt make a flat 20, nothing else increasing monk levels.

This is the monk unarmed strike progression for a medium monk:
d6 -> d8 -> d10 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10
Fist of the forest says, at level one, if you already do d8 unarmed strike damage, go to the next step, which is d10. At level three it says, if you do d10, go to the next step, which is 2d6.

That is not the same as if it had given you two size increases as that would have gone d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6

Step != size increase. The steps overlap things that increase monk level.

EDIT:To be clear, when I talk about increasing the size, i mean the size of the monk; this may or may not be causing confusion

[Eloel]

This is the monk unarmed strike progression for a medium monk:
d6 -> d8 -> d10 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10
Fist of the forest says, at level one, if you already do d8 unarmed strike damage, go to the next step, which is d10. At level three it says, if you do d10, go to the next step, which is 2d6.

That is not the same as if it had given you two size increases as that would have gone d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6

Step != size increase. The steps overlap things that increase monk level.

EDIT:To be clear, when I talk about increasing the size, i mean the size of the monk; this may or may not be causing confusion

Nope that's not the confusion, I'm not even sure there's a confusion :)

1d4-1d6-1d8 (1-step increases with size)
1d6-1d8-2d6( 1-step with size)
1d8-1d10-2d8 (1-step again)
1d10-2d6-3d6 (Ignore this, hardly ANY increase except small)
2d6-2d8-3d8 (1-step...)
2d8-2d10-4d8 (1-step)

2d8 is roughly equivilant to 3d6
1d10 is roughly equivilant to 2d6
2d10 is roughly equivilant to 3d8

1d10, by size, normally improves to 2d8, not 2d6
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFea...dNaturalAttack

[playswithfire]

1d10, by size, normally improves to 2d8, not 2d6
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFea...dNaturalAttack

By size, yes, not by step (down the column) on the monk unarmed strike progression which is what the fist of the forest says to refer to:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk#Unarmed_Strike

And the fact that they are "roughly equivalent" is irrelevant.

[Eloel]

By size, yes, not by step (down the column) on the monk unarmed strike progression which is what the fist of the forest says to refer to:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk#Unarmed_Strike

And the fact that they are "roughly equivalent" is irrelevant.

Large Monk improves from 1d8 to 2d6 to 2d8 just fine. I think you should tell him that he should improve slower ^^


My thesis for 2d10 = 3d8 = 4d6 = 6d4 stands
And however idiotic it might seem, 2d8 = 3d6 too.

[playswithfire]

We either disagree about what step means or in what order the various things get applied and I doubt either of us will convince the other that they're wrong so I will just say that you can not get damage that is not listed on the monk table, so whatever you're doing, it's not 24d8 and stop posting here.

[Eloel]

I'm still searching for an answer, whether from you or not.
The thing is, my monk levels/modifiers grant me 2d10, there's no doubt of that.
Half-Giant gives me a size-increase THAT STACKS (it says so in description O_O)
That makes it 4d8
INA gives +1 size, 6d8
There should be little to no doubt upto here.
Now, the whole problem is what my FoF levels grant me.

By YOUR interpretation, 1d8 gets to be 1d10, which makes this 6d10. And at 3rd FoF level, 1d10 gets to be 2d6, which is 12d6.

By MY interpretation, you get 1d8 for just getting 1 level of FoF, which, by 1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8, is a 3-step increase ABOVE monk. at 3rd FoF level, I get another step, 1d8-1d10, which is the 4th step I get from FoF.
6d8, with first step, becomes 8d8. 8d8, with the second step, becomes 12d8. (this is still going downwards on the table) At 12d8, the table ends, so I assume it as 6d8+6d8, which becomes 8d8+8d8=16d8 at next step. With another increase, whether I use 4d8+4d8+4d8+4d8 or 8d8+8d8, I get 24d8.

Even if FoF grants me 2 steps (which it might be doing, can't argue), I get 12d8, not 12d6. Can you please show the flaw of my logic, if there is one?

[playswithfire]

I'm still searching for an answer, whether from you or not.
The thing is, my monk levels/modifiers grant me 2d10, there's no doubt of that.
Half-Giant gives me a size-increase THAT STACKS (it says so in description O_O)
That makes it 4d8
INA gives +1 size, 6d8
There should be little to no doubt upto here.
Now, the whole problem is what my FoF levels grant me.

I disagree that half-giant gives a size increase; it makes you bigger for tripping and disarming, not unarmed damage; they're medium; they do medium monk damage. But let's take it for granted you're right there.

By YOUR interpretation, 1d8 gets to be 1d10, which makes this 6d10. And at 3rd FoF level, 1d10 gets to be 2d6, which is 12d6.

By MY interpretation, you get 1d8 for just getting 1 level of FoF, which, by 1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8, is a 3-step increase ABOVE monk. at 3rd FoF level, I get another step, 1d8-1d10, which is the 4th step I get from FoF.
6d8, with first step, becomes 8d8. 8d8, with the second step, becomes 12d8. (this is still going downwards on the table) At 12d8, the table ends, so I assume it as 6d8+6d8, which becomes 8d8+8d8=16d8 at next step. With another increase, whether I use 4d8+4d8+4d8+4d8 or 8d8+8d8, I get 24d8.

Even if FoF grants me 2 steps (which it might be doing, can't argue), I get 12d8, not 12d6. Can you please show the flaw of my logic, if there is one?

The first point we disagree on is the first level of FoF; it isn't an increase to d8. You get that value if your unarmed damage is currently less than d8, regardless of whatever it was. If you have unarmed damage of d8 or better, you move one step further in the column of monk damage you are currently using.

This is the second point we disagree on, I think. You move laterally to the next size monk damage, I move vertically to the next level block of monk damage, with mine ending at the 20th level block. So by my read, once you reach that step, you can only increase damage by increasing your size, which Fist of the Forest doesn't do. So, by my read, you get 6d8 if Half-Giant gets you a size increase. 20th level monk, two size increases (INA + racial). Nothing else increases your damage.

[Eloel]

Ah, I now understand what we can't reach to terms on. I treat the table as a part of a bigger table, that applies to monks (to simulate that table, I move to wherever I see the same damage, go down as much as I can, before doing the same again, so I'm moving down from Gargantuan 6d8, not right from Huge 6d8). You treat it as the limits. There's nothing we can do to change each other's idea on it, unless we can point to WotC sources.