Making XP make sense

[Emperor Tippy]

One of the most common complaints that I here about D&D is that the leveling system and XP in general just doesn't make sense. Why can a level 20 barbarian fall a thousand feet and walk away like nothing happened? Or get chomped on by a dragon and be fine? Well here is my solution (note that these are only fluff changes, and are more actually just adding fluff where there was none before).

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Raw magic is everywhere. In the air, water, ground, everywhere. As creatures live and experience life their bodies convert this raw magic into refined magic. A creature can choose to use the refined magic that they possess by binding it to themselves or other things. That high level fighter's bones are as strong as adamantium, his skin can stop most swords cold, his organs heal incredibly rapidly, etc. Why? Because he has bound a truly amazing amount of refined magic to himself. A level 20 barbarian has 190 times as much of this refined magic as a level 2, and has invested all of it into strengthening his body.

When a character dies any unbound refined magic that they have is released and can be collected by those nearby. Stressful situations cause the body to convert the raw magic at a faster rate (hence gaining XP for non combat encounters).

Now Spellcasting:
Arcane: Arcane spells make use of spell forms that shape the raw magic all about into specific forms, causing specific effects to occur.
Divine: Divine spells draw their power from a divine source, but only a limited amount can be drawn at a time before the conduit is full. Divine casters invest refined magic in strengthening this conduit so that it can handle more power.

Prepared: Prepared casters make use of refined magic to create spell forms. When they want to use these spells they just open the block on the spell form so that raw magic can flow into it and take the desired form. But spell forms can only contain the raw magic for a time before it begins to overload and has to be released (by opening another block). When they mediate and rest prepared casters are taking the spell forms back and turning them back into a pool of refined magic that can be shaped. When they prepare their spells they are shaping this pool into the spell form.

Spontaneous: Unlike prepared casters, spontaneous casters actually bind their spell forms to themselves. This takes less refined magic but is generally a more complicated task as the caster must know how exactly to tie the spell forms to themselves. The benefit is that the caster can use the excess refined magic to add in blocks later on, letting him reuse a spell form multiple times per day.

Metamagic: Metamagic involves changes to the spell form. Prepared casters just prepare the spell form with this changes, investing the extra refined magic as needed. But spontaneous casters can't easily change their spell forms. They have to add and remove blocks on the fly, which takes longer.

Now the classes:
Barbarian: A barbarian invests almost all of his refined magic into strengthening his body to truly inhuman levels. But he also binds some to his rage, so that when he rages this refined magic temporarily gives his body a truly massive boost.

Bard: In addition to strengthening his body, a bard binds some spell forms to his body. But most of his refined magic is invested in a pool that he shapes with music as he needs it.

Cleric: While still strengthening his body, a cleric invests most of his refined magic into strengthening his connection with his divine source and increasing his pool of available refined magic to shape this power. Unlike the raw magic that arcane casters use to power their spells though, the power from the divine source is much easier to work with. Which means that much less complicated spell forms are required.

Druid: Much like a cleric, a druid strengthens his divine powers but he also binds a very complicated spell form to his body, one that takes a truly massive amount of refined magic to complete (why wildshape improves over time). This spell form actually alters the druids body into that of various animals.

Fighter: Like the barbarian the fighter spends much of his magic strengthening his body, but unlike the barbarian the fighter spends much of his refined magic to permanently bind certain special abilities to his body that improve his combat power in many different ways (feats).

Monk: Monks invest almost all of their refined magic into altering and improving their bodies. But unlike barbarians, monks are focused much more on increasing their bodies speed and maneuverability.

Paladin: While the paladin invests much of his power strengthening his body, he also binds various spell forms to his body and increases his connection to the divine source. He also spends a large portion of his refined magic on his mount, improving it's body and mind as well as his own.

Ranger: In addition to strengthening his body to survive the wilds of the world, rangers also invest some of their magic into strengthening their connection to the divine source and into a pool so that they can create some spell forms.

Rogue: While investing much of their magic into making their body more stealthy, rogue's also spend a large portion of it to increase their instincts about where to strike at a foe to deal the most damage (sneak attack).

Sorcerer: Sorcerers invest almost all of their refined magic in binding spell forms to their bodies. They also invest some in an familiar to give it various abilities.

Wizards: Wizards spend nearly all of their refined magic by investing it into the pool that they use to shape spell forms.

Item crafting: To bind a spell form to an item requires the investment of some refined magic and no uncommon skill.

Spells that requires XP components: Some spells are so powerful and require so much power to work that they require the caster to expend a portion of their refined magic to make them work.

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I'm not going to do the classes outside of the PHB right now, it's not that hard to figure out.

So thoughts?

[mostlyharmful]

Pretty much exactly how I think of it, that XP and classes are distilled magic accumulation. My only difference is that it's solely stress that forces the "soul" to accumulate magic rather than killing things, that's just the easiest way to get into stressful situations.

[Jack_Simth]

It works mechanically (for the most part - why, again, does the 1st level character not gain any XP when he's around when that CR 20 beasty is slain? How is it that hirelings don't gain XP for accompanying you?), but my initial reaction is "meh".

[LibraryOgre]

Tippy, have you given thought to Earthdawn?

The core of that game is that all of the classes (called Disciplines) are magic-users. If you've got the talent, magic is easier than learning things the hard way, but learning things the hard way also helps. As you increase in Legend (measured in Legend Points), you gain more power, increasing Talents, Skills, and Circle (levels) as you go along, and as you find your own style.

[Mephit]

A good explanation, although I'm personally more comfortable with 'Meh, it's the system'.

Although: Following that reasoning, an AMF would affect casters and non-casters alike.

[Emperor Tippy]

Although: Following that reasoning, an AMF would affect casters and non-casters alike.

Nope. AMF just blocks the raw magic and the connection to divine sources. It doesn't actually effect refined magic that has been bound to individuals.

[mostlyharmful]

A good explanation, although I'm personally more comfortable with 'Meh, it's the system'.

Although: Following that reasoning, an AMF would affect casters and non-casters alike.

Nope, cause an Antimagic-field isn't a Dead magic zone, spells can still be cast it's just that most obvious, external uses of magic get surpressed. In this system an antimagic field only suppresses magic use not internalized magical accumulation. Now dead magic zones are a little harder to pass over but if you say that accumulated magic works independant of the weave or what have you it should be alright, Gods salient abilities work in a DMZ because they don't depend on anything outside the god, XP and levels would just be like that.

[Kurald Galain]

In other words, A Wizard Did It.

[Muad'dib]

The only large problem I see with describing it as such is how do you collect xp by winning an encounter without killing anything?

Edit: I fail at reading parentheses. No problems to see here move along folks.

[mabriss lethe]

On antimagic fields.

It could be more the case with nonmages that they don't necessarily "bind" this refined magic so much as they consume it and their body metabolizes it.

The magic is a catalyst for change, but once the change has been made, that catalyst just sits there, saturating the body with no way to tap it until a new threshold has been reached.

In this sort of scenario, the magic, while responsible for causing a high level noncaster's changes, doesn't actually fuel them once they're established. Thus, it should still operate in an AMF

[BobVosh]

When a character dies any unbound refined magic that they have is released and can be collected by those nearby. Stressful situations cause the body to convert the raw magic at a faster rate (hence gaining XP for non combat encounters).

It works mechanically (for the most part - why, again, does the 1st level character not gain any XP when he's around when that CR 20 beasty is slain? How is it that hirelings don't gain XP for accompanying you?), but my initial reaction is "meh".

Be better if you word it from "collected" to "the raw magic is attracted to those that have destoyed its previous container," in order to prevent the hirelings/minions/leadership guys. Hmm, second thought that doesn't work. The strongest involved? Something like that.

In other words, A Wizard Did It.

It is a Tippy-verse. Did you expect anything else?

Overall it is feasible, but not something people really want refined or care about. Usually.

*edit* On second thought with all the AMF love in here, even if noncasters could still magic it up, how do they gather the RM (raw magic) in an AMF? AMF=No XPs?

[Talic]

Stress causes people to convert it faster?

God, my office must be Epic, in every sense of the word. Stock brokers can level the world.

[Satyr]

It is again and again astonishing for me with how much thought and consideration Tippy can come up with a thought through concept I can so totally and wholeheartedly disagree with.

It is well made concept, but I would cut off my right foot and eat it raw before I would adapt that to a game (Making magic everywhere? Is there any better way to banalise and dull the supernatural?)

[Kizara]

Some great setting/fluff you have there. I may just incorporate some of it.

Its one thing to come up with the idea, you have thought-out and presented it very well.

Kudos.

[Eldan]

As for why commoners don't get XP for killing the great Wyrm:

The energy released by creatures of true, epic strenght is so much that the soul and bodies of those not accustomed to it could never even begin to absorb and process it. It washes over them like a wave, and they will not even feel much beyond perhaps a slight feeling of massive power for a fraction of a second. However, the more power you bind, the more adept you also become at binding more, therefore, stronger heroes can bind stronger sources.
It also explains why items and powerful spells cost XP: you use some of the absorbed essence to activate it.

[Yahzi]

I would cut off my right foot and eat it raw before I would adapt that to a game

Don't be so sure. All of my players were quite dubious of my scheme, but once they started playing it, they've decided it's fantastic.

My idea is even simpler than Tippys:

XP is tangible.

That's it. XP is a tangible substance. It's purple, weighs nothing, and one unit of XP is worth exactly 5 gp (just like it says in the DMG). You extract XP from the brains of sentient creatures. You consume XP to gain class levels (which, like Tippy, are real supernatural enhancements) or make magic items. Consider: everything in D&D already treats XP like a fungible resource (item creation, spell costs, going up and down levels, etc.), so let's just call it what it is: a supernatural currency.

This solves so, so many problems. Why does a wizard make a magic sword for gold? Because you're paying him in XP, which he can use at any level. Why do magic items cost so much? Because that material cost is really in XP - the raw magic necessary to bind a spell to the object. Why can't Shadows overrun the world? Because making a shadow - indeed, making any monster or class-leveled creature that is not biologically ordinary - requires XP. XP becomes a limited, controlled resource, just like gold; and the players enjoy spending it, just like they enjoy spending gold. Why do people go on side-quests? Because they need XP before they can face the BBEG. Why do high-level Fighters protect peasants? Because the peasants grow food for you, and then, when they die, as lord of the land, you get their XP (which means the bigger your fief, the more XP you get, and the higher level you are!). Why do adventurers adventure? Because you can kill people and take their stuff, and one of the things you can take is a universal currency called XP.

This leads to a very violent world, where even the Good Guys are high-level because they consumed the XP of a lot dead people; but really, isn't that D&D anyway?

If you want a spookier way to frame it, consider this: that XP you are eating came from a lifetime of memories, experiences, hopes, and dreams. It is another person's soul. So people become powerful by binding souls to their service. These souls protect you (hps and reflex saves), guide you (skill points and feats), and do your bidding (magic). The good guys eat souls too, they just limit themselves to voluntary donations (old people don't die, they just go into a different kind of service to the community) or the souls of the wicked and misguided, who now must serve the Good in the afterlife (evil people don't need a reason to eat souls).

My players thought this was an idiotic idea, but the world I've built looks just like the typical D&D world, except it makes perfect sense; and the players are really, really enjoying being able to decide when to level, when to buy magic items, and when to invest in followers. Also, they really enjoy that the world makes perfect sense.

Call it "souls" or call it "XP"; the point remains, you are binding the life-essence of other sentient creatures to your will, and thus, there is only so much XP in the world, because there is only so many sentient beings you can kill. The most crucial resource in D&D is XP, yet it has the least attempt to manage it. It treats it just like gold, moving it around to balance things (just as longbows cost a stupid 100 gp for a piece of wood, to balance their superior power), and yet it pretends it's not doing that. The game works better if you just admit it.

Try it and see! Or, wait a few months until I finish my magnum opus and then try it and see.

[Knaight]

Of course, in both these cases the class system becomes ridiculous. If you have actual stuff you can use as you wish to improve yourself, then it just asks for a point based system.

[RPGuru1331]

but I would cut off my right foot and eat it raw before I would adapt that to a game

I agree with this, but mostly because I prefer to make XP, CHaracter Points, and whatever else have you, as low-key as is humanly possible, rather then pile attention onto them to try and make them 'make sense', especially since it seems hollow and contrived.

God, my office must be Epic, in every sense of the word. Stock brokers can level the world.

And glosses over little things like that, yeah.

[silvadel]

Actually, it reminds me a lot of highlander...

You could almost have a mini-quickening after killing a major monster or npc.

[Ascension]

So people become powerful by binding souls to their service. These souls protect you (hps and reflex saves), guide you (skill points and feats), and do your bidding (magic). The good guys eat souls too, they just limit themselves to voluntary donations (old people don't die, they just go into a different kind of service to the community) or the souls of the wicked and misguided, who now must serve the Good in the afterlife (evil people don't need a reason to eat souls).

This is reminding me a lot of Soul Calibur.

[Starbuck_II]

Monk: Monks invest almost all of their refined magic into altering and improving their bodies. But unlike barbarians, monks are focused much more on increasing their bodies speed and maneuverability.

Come on! Your joking?
Monks aren't that fast/maneuverable.
Heck, Expedious Retreat spell matches them.

So thoughts?

I love it except Monk fluff you gave.

[T-O-E]

Nice idea, very interesting.

[Dervag]

Re: Tangible XP
Can you extract XP from a creature without killing it?

It is again and again astonishing for me with how much thought and consideration Tippy can come up with a thought through concept I can so totally and wholeheartedly disagree with.

It is well made concept, but I would cut off my right foot and eat it raw before I would adapt that to a game (Making magic everywhere? Is there any better way to banalise and dull the supernatural?)

Ask the animists.

Come on! Your joking?
Monks aren't that fast/maneuverable.
Heck, Expedious Retreat spell matches them.

No one said they were good at it.

[Human Paragon 3]

I once played in a high-power gestalt game where PCs some NPCS were "super" and everyoen else was the equivilant of a peasant. When you defeated another super being (NPC or monster) in combat, you got a quickening like in highlander and became more powerful. One of the main bad guys was a super who went around hunting and killing other supers to gain their strength.

[Tacoma]

1: Storyline or Mission XP. How does this fit? I tend to give the majority of the XP as story or achievement XP but that's just me.

2: Do I only get XP if I cut off his head and feed on his lightning?

3: Maybe vampires suck out your XP?! o_O

4: I hire commoners to go out into the forest and kill squirrels and stuff. The commoners gain 999 xp each. They each have ten times as much "magic life energy" as the commoners sitting in town. And yet when I harvest their souls I get the same XP for one of the commoners about to hit level 2 as the level 1 commoners in town.

5: I'm level 1. I steal a magic item that has one use and casts Disintegrate once. I meet a friendly Great Old Gnarly Wyrm Orange Dragon and use my wand. He fails initiative, spell resistance, saving throw, etc. And he dies. He was a CR20 encounter and I'm a level 1 dude all by myself (so 4x XP award because the XP value on the chart is for a party of 4). Yet because I'm too little I gain no XP. This makes some sense if XP is on-the-job-training because I didn't really learn 100,000 XP worth of skills by firing that one lucky shot. But in your "magical life force" system I should get every drop of the luscious electric quickening.

[Starbuck_II]

But in your "magical life force" system I should get every drop of the luscious electric quickening.

Nope, because your body can't absorb that much.

An analogy is the ocean.
You can drink a little salt water safely from a boat. But you can't jump in the ocean and drink the ocean safely (too much water and salt). You'd drown if you tried.

[Samurai Jill]

Oh, Gods. Gamism and Simulationism: When Worlds Collide.

Raw magic is everywhere. In the air, water, ground, everywhere. As creatures live and experience life their bodies convert this raw magic into refined magic.

The slight problem with this line of rationalisation- which is what it is- is that having magic operate as an intrinsic part of, well... everything would essentially render most of the known laws of physics and biology nonsensical. It's highly unlikely anything remotely resembling a terrestrial ecosystem- or, for that matter, the basic metabolic functions of the human body- would exist under those circumstances. (And no, you can't around this by saying 'the Gods made things that way'- why would the Gods fashion their creations in such a nonsensical manner, rather than having their physiology and body chemistry take direct advantage of so much ambient magic?)

In order for anything recognisable to exist in a fantasy universe, magic has to be... cordoned off and limited to special applications. XP, levels and classes are metagame abstractions. It does not make particular sense within the context of the game world- rather, it is external to it. Whether they are particularly beneficial abstractions is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, ...but that's a debate for another day.

[Eldariel]

I really love this way of putting it and will probably make a campaign world around this. Why should the world be recognizable? Let the players scout something alien for a change. Logic is more usable a tool than familiarity, after all; familiarity only goes as far as you've experienced things while logic has no such boundaries. When a world has a clear set of rules and operates by them, the immersion is of an entirely different level than when talking in metagame terms. Ideally, there's no such thing as a metagame (although this, of course, is mostly unreachable due to player knowledge vs. character knowledge, unless you literally take them to a place where no creatures are those the players have sometimes used themselves while DMing/read off the MM pages - which might actually be an interesting direction to take the game to at some point; modifying everything the players face so that it's outside their sphere of experience).

[Eldan]

So you want to set a game in the far realms?

I can see it now.

You pick up the hypercube to slay the tentacled swordfish. Roll for damage. You rolled yellow. The swordfish turns into an infinite number of duplicates, stretching to both the left and the right, then he turns inside out, revealing a small man in a red suit, who is dancing.
Then, something weird happens.

[Optimystik]

So a wizard did it... gradually.

Hey, it's no worse than anything else.