Do dragons exist in ravenloft?

[Seatbelt]

I'm running a ravenloft game. The druid has flavored his character such that he hates dragons, and the Wizard has asked me if he can make an Eragon prc. I can't see any way how riding a large dragon would not unballance the game at all, but that's beside the point. I can't find anything on dragons in Ravenloft one way or the other.

[SuperFish]

the Wizard has asked me if he can make an Eragon prc.

Balance issues aside, he should be banned from that simply by virtue of it being Eragon.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm running a ravenloft game. The druid has flavored his character such that he hates dragons, and the Wizard has asked me if he can make an Eragon prc. I can't see any way how riding a large dragon would not unballance the game at all, but that's beside the point. I can't find anything on dragons in Ravenloft one way or the other.

Kill the Wizard player now, and wipe his character, too. It's possible through abuse of Planar Binding without a PrC needed, though.

[Coidzor]

Wouldn't the dragons just have to be reflavored to be huge goths? So other than the obvious issues one might have with someone trying to use dragon-brute force in a horror/evil-won(wins) setting...

[Shalist]

In one of the ravenloft novels (knight of the black rose), Strahd had a younger red dragon tucked away in his castle working for him. I imagine that dragons (evil, or especially good) generally wouldn't be that prolific there though, since the darklords wouldn't want anything that could grow that powerful running around unchecked. If any showed up in their territory, they'd either hunt them down, or possibly try to employ/enslave them *shrug*.

edit:

Then again, you could always cook up a territory ruled by a dracolich, or something to that affect. *shrug*

[Tsotha-lanti]

I can recall reading of precisely zero dragons in any Ravenloft material I've come across. If they did exist, they would undoubtedly be Darklords, or unique creatures related to a particular domain's/Darklord's curse. Dragons don't, as a rule, make good gothic horror monsters, although there is some potential there - but because they tend, above all, to be big, conspicuous, and brutally powerful, they don't have real horror potential. (They have modern "horror" movie potential, but that has nothing to do with actual horror, and least of all with gothic horror.)

So no, there's no reported dragons, and probably none in any of the well-known domains/clusters. If there were, they would be at least as unique and important as any lich, and probably as unique and important as any Darklord. The potential of draconic (but stupid) sea monsters is certainly there, and low-Int landwyrms and the like could work well for some uses. Similarly, you could plop in a few of the horrible draconic way-over-CR-20 evil worms from one of the 3.X Monster Manuals (or Fiend Folio, I never remember what's in which).


The only mention of dragons that I can recall is in the 3.5 Denizens of Darkness (or Dread? I forget which is 3.0, which is 3.5; though both probably have the same info), where dragons are said to have a sort of metaphorical role as expressions of the destructive power of nature, but that's all.

If a dragon did ever feature in an adventure, it should not be directly, but as, say, the terrible threat slumbering beneath the castle, or the ravage that has led the local ruler to hide in his castle with his courtiers and servants - dragons would be background or motivation, but never active participants in the story.


Edit: Yeah, makes sense that Strahd of all darklords would have one. 'course, after Azalin's big mess, Strahd is gone. The dragon is probably dead or fled.

I suppose that dragons could serve a thematic purpose, too, highlighting human traits gothic horror uses to great effect anyway. A red dragon, especially, is prideful, cruel, greedy, and all that good sinful stuff. They'd have to be used with great care. Dragon-slaying is not horror, in general.

[Kristoss]

Dragons most probably exist as evil overloards of a domain or scheming antagonists.
Wouldn't a dragon rider go against the horror theme of ravenloft? In a horror game many monsters of the world should remain mysterious and unknown to the protagonists as it is done in literature.

[Seatbelt]

Thats kind of what I thought: Good dragons would be a force for good such that the dark powers would expel them or the dark lords would exterminate them, and evil dragons would deserve their own domains, because they are really powerful and generally speaking, not nice people.

In my setting Strahd is dead (at least temporarily) and the party that killed him is established a guild in castle ravenloft, and call themselves the Knights of the Phantom Crusade. These PCs are young members of that guild. Not really relevant, but I'm procrastinating studying for biblit. So woot.

I thought the same thing about Star Wars Eragon. I'm honestly not fond of the Wizard PC as a person, and it remains to see how long he will be in my game. He and the party sorc got into an ingame fight and the sorc zapped him for being arrogant. So his character may actually die. Actually, I may just kill him. He's playing a wizard evoker. He's probably the least optimized player in a party of newbies, and I routinely drop at least one PC in each encounter. I almost killed him when he tried to melee a fiendish giant scorpion. The other players accept the lethal setting as just the results of combat and poor decisions. He gets irate that my encounters are too hard for low level wizards (I have explained the concept of the battlefield control wizard as a foil to the sorc's glass cannon, but he doesnt get it)
He may just do something dumb, get frustrated, and decide maybe I'm not the right DM for him.

He actually got mad when he tried to import his wiard from another game and keep all his amazing ability scores, and I forced him to reroll them because everyone else had to roll. Claiming he needed uberscores to survive low levels.

[The_Snark]

I don't believe dragons appear in a lot of Ravenloft material, though I could be wrong. If a DM wanted to put them in, I would recommend using them as follows:

1. Dragons as a reflection of human flaws.
Fafnir, a dwarf whose greed turned him into a dragon, is the archetypal example of this one. Anger and pride are also good faults to associate with a dragon. This kind of dragon is almost certainly a Darklord, because being empowered and cursed by your own failings is exactly what being a Darklord entails.

Alternatively, the dragon might have been born as a dragon, and then ended up as a Darklord the same way any other Darklord does—cursed for their own failings and crimes. They still tend to reflect human faults, just because we have trouble coming up with faults that don't apply to us at all. If you want to keep the dragon in line with Ravenloft's themes, it's probably a good idea to emphasize its connection to humanity.

2. Dragons as inhuman creatures. They're intelligent, ageless, they can lay waste to entire armies of their lessers, and they see you as little more than food. If you are lucky, they might feel like toying with their food rather than just eating it. They probably work best if kept as a looming threat, rather than coming out and constantly ravaging the countryside. Meeting them should be incredibly risky, and fighting them ought to be nigh-suicidal. These don't reflect humanity at all; the point is that humanity and human concerns are insignificant to them.

Smaug is your model here; arrogant, nigh-unstoppable, and largely uncaring.

3. Dragons as mindless monsters. You're looking at old western myths here. They're the most likely to be ravaging the countryside. As Tsotha-lanti mentioned, they're sometimes metaphors for the destructive power of nature, or it could be mixed in with number 1, if the land is being ravaged as a result of some terrible crime or deed by man. This kind of dragon is an urgent problem for a domain, one that will devastate the countryside if left unchecked.

If you feel like going by those old myths, they likely lack wings, and may or may not have four legs—they could have only forelimbs, or no limbs at all. They also may or may not breathe fire (or whatever else dragons breathe these days; if you want a nonstandard breath weapon, disease is a good one for these).

None of these should not be random encounters; every dragon should have a reason and a story behind it. Depending on whether you use one of these and which one, you and your druid's player might be able to come up with a good story involving a dragon in his background; since dragons in any form are pretty powerful, you might get a good story hook out of it. Your wizard... well...

None of these archetypes should be a mount. Ever.

[Mando Knight]

All of the Dragons that could survive in Ravenloft long enough to become Large would have to be chromatic... and eviller than your PCs. And probably servants to one of the greater horrors within the setting.

In short, the Wizard wouldn't get a dragon mount. He would either become a servant of a greater evil and the dragon would be his servant (Dragon Cohort?)... or the Wizard would be the dragon's slave and portable spell reservoir.

[herrhauptmann]

I had long been under the impression that if a Dark Lord died, his domain disappeared unless there was another being of sufficient evil to take over as the new dark lord. (Backed up by novels: Spectre of the Black Rose, and whichever one featured street imp in Kartakas)
I know that the Van Richten guides never mentioned dragons in any way shape or form. Ancient dead, hags, vampires, werebeasts, demons, ghosts, vistani, golems and 1 other.
An advantage to the domains of dread, you could simply create a domain where an evil dragon is the dark lord. "On the first new moon of the year, when the night is at its darkest. The tribe of the 'Baba-louie' must offer up one youth or maiden to the beast of the night. Should they break this ancient compact, the beast shall come for them."
Then just insert your dragon of choice. Probably adjust its fighting style and abilities to better reflect the gothic horror of the setting. Half shadow template or something?

As far as having a good dragon, wouldn't that be like having a paladin who's native to the domains of dread? ie: Impossible.

Now for having a prestige class based on dragon riding...

Spoiler

Show

-You could make one of the prereqs, carry a dragon egg and keep it incubated so it hatches. For 5 game years and at least 5 character levels.
-Another prereq could be how they gain the egg. Stealing an egg from the nest of a gold dragon wouldn't work, nor would buying one off the blackmarket. Have to rescue the egg(s) from true danger and attempt to restore them to the parents nest. Now why momma dragon would allow you to keep an egg, I have no idea.
-Other prereqs, Leadership feat. Sufficient leadership score that a dragon large enough to ride would not be overpowered as a cohort.
-As a 10 level prestige class, start off with a wyrmling cohort, and not have the dragon be rideable until level 6.
-If the guy really wants to be Eragon, shouldn't he be a truenamer or sorceror as well?
-While advancing through the PrC, he gains the dragon heritage feats from PHB2.

Though I support slapping this guy for wanting something taken directly from such a hyped up novel.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I had long been under the impression that if a Dark Lord died, his domain disappeared unless there was another being of sufficient evil to take over as the new dark lord. (Backed up by novels: Spectre of the Black Rose, and whichever one featured street imp in Kartakas)

This is correct. Darklords also tend not to die unless there's someone to take their place. It's narrative imperative or the Dark Powers' will, I guess. My understanding is that defeating Strahd with a host of artifacts will just get you a few years' peace, at best, before some idiot bleeds on the right stone in the castle.

As far as having a good dragon, wouldn't that be like having a paladin who's native to the domains of dread?

How are native paladins impossible?


I think black or green dragons would function best as darklords. Both are sneaky, and green dragons are excellent manipulators. You need some heroic effort to make them actually stand out and be fit for horror. Regular scary won't do - all dragons are that.

[Seatbelt]

This is correct. Darklords also tend not to die unless there's someone to take their place. It's narrative imperative or the Dark Powers' will, I guess. My understanding is that defeating Strahd with a host of artifacts will just get you a few years' peace, at best, before some idiot bleeds on the right stone in the castle.

This has popped up a couple of times in this thread, so let me explain myself a little.

I was under the impression that Strahd has lain dormant on and off for long periods of time through-out his reign of Barovia. My justification for what's going on in my campaign world (IE: Barovia's continued existence) is that Strahd has been defeated, and as such the realm has been given a respite from his opression. But after a suitable length of time (30 years? Long enough for the outlander heroes to have found a way home, and then have castle ravenloft lay empty for a while) he will return. Barovia is Strahd's prison, and Strahd is Ravenloft's iconic prisoner. But rendering him unbeatable, indestructible, would have taken the fun out of the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game. But because of how abruptly the game ended (whoops. Strahd's dead, we're going to college tomorrow. See ya!) my players never got to see an ending fitting their heroics. So to reward them, I let them name this guild and create some basic ground rules for it's operation, and gave their characters bit parts in the opening sessions of my new campaign for different players.

Plus, the 'empty' domain of Barovia creates some interesting goings on with the neighboring domains and will create some interesting espionage/warfare situations as the party investigates my BBEF.

But thanks for the Dragon suggestions. I don't think I'm up to the task of creating a Dragon Domain, and I think there is enough interesting source material in Ravenloft that it's not necessary. And frankly I don't want to deal with a dragon in the party in any way, shape, or form.

[herrhauptmann]

Tsotha Lanti:
It's been a while since I've read the campaign guide for ravenloft (2002 or 2003), but I'd swear it stated that certain things in the PHB can never be natives of ravenloft. Orcs and Half-orcs for races (ravenloft only has goblins/goblyns). Sithicus does have a sizeable contingent of half elves, wild elves, and kenderkin (nothing like Tasslehoff) though.
Pretty sure that utter holiness of a paladin made it impossible for them to be born in Ravenloft. Likewise, some of their abilities get morphed by the mists:detect evil becomes detect the Innocent. In the same way summoning, transportation, divination, and necromancy spells work differently. (Sorta ruins the gothic horror if the shiny man concentrates for a few seconds, then cuts down the bartender who's actually the werewolf). Also, that a darklord knows when a paladin enters his land, and if the paladin owns a holy avenger the darklord can even give you a direction and distance. (Though that might have been a carry-over from AD&D Ravenloft or a houserule)

[Tsotha-lanti]

Oh, I wasn't criticizing, as such. There's no burden on anyone to run games according to canon, especially canon that may actually require relatively intensive study of the setting.

And for all that, your way of handling it sounds pretty appropriate to me. Indeed, the very fact that the domain still exists is probably proof that Strahd is not gone. (Although this level of planar metaphysical deduction should probably be beyond even Van Richten.)

Personally, I'd probably run it something like...

Strahd is defeated with the sword and the holy symbol. For a time, Barovia is free of him, and probably plunged into no small measure of chaos, until a new tyrant sets himself up. But years later - perhaps decades - the Dark Powers re-assert the nature of Barovia. The castle, razed to the ground, rebuilds itself, or just re-appears overnight. Strahd returns to it without ceremony or fanfare. Outsiders are dumbfounded, and even more so when the locals appear to see nothing wrong. "Strahd, gone? Why, he's ruled here as long as I could remember, and Castle Ravenloft has stood there as long as Barovia has existed. Take care of your words, sirs!"

(Several other domains already have similar memory-altering effects, after all, and the history of most domains beyond the last 500-700 years - or even less - is essentially illusion.)

[Mando Knight]

How are native paladins impossible?

They're born in a sentient realm consumed by its own evil: Natural Good is non-existent. If Good is non-native to the world, then there can be no native paragons of such Good. Since Ravenloft lacks Good, it treats the Good that a Paladin or other paragon of virtue holds in him/herself as an alien substance: like the body sending white blood cells and antibodies to destroy viruses and bacteria, the realm sends horrible evils to destroy the Good.

[Tsotha-lanti]

They're born in a sentient realm consumed by its own evil: Natural Good is non-existent. If Good is non-native to the world, then there can be no native paragons of such Good. Since Ravenloft lacks Good, it treats the Good that a Paladin or other paragon of virtue holds in him/herself as an alien substance: like the body sending white blood cells and antibodies to destroy viruses and bacteria, the realm sends horrible evils to destroy the Good.

That's nonsensical. The alignment of any being in Ravenloft is in no way restricted by the nature of Ravenloft. Indeed, it's a pretty big claim to say the realm is "consumed by its own evil" - the Dark Powers may be completely non-evil (though probably not good), since most evil on the plane is the result of the evil of men (and women, and elves, and so on), rather than any supernatural force. (Admittedly, the land is deeply corrupted by that evil, and it leeches into the animals, plants, and other creatures, but there's not necessarily any kind of supernatural evil force orchestrating things.)

Ravenloft does not lack good; indeed, lacking good would make the entire demiplane pointless. Thematically, it's absolutely required, so that there is something to hold the darklords up to and contrast their failures and evil, and so that there is something to taunt them.

The Dark Powers do not have it out for good characters or creatures (except when they start to fail to be good) - indeed, they only take a malignant interest in evil (preferrably formerly good) entities, which they then punish, mock, and torment grotesquely. They are largerly uncaring of everything else.

The darklords themselves may have it out for do-gooders, although pretty much all of them are too well-developed to simply go "Ah, a paladin/good-aligned person! I must kill them because they are a paladin/good-aligned!" Their motivations tend to make a ton more sense.

The analogue is completely inaccurate.

[FoE]

The Dark Powers do not have it out for good characters or creatures (except when they start to fail to be good) - indeed, they only take a malignant interest in evil (preferrably formerly good) entities, which they then punish, mock, and torment grotesquely. They are largerly uncaring of everything else.

The darklords themselves may have it out for do-gooders, although pretty much all of them are too well-developed to simply go "Ah, a paladin/good-aligned person! I must kill them because they are a paladin/good-aligned!" Their motivations tend to make a ton more sense.

I've never played Ravenloft, but I have read some of his books, and Tsotha-lanti is correct. In fact, it's been theorized that the Dark Powers that control the Demiplane of Dread are more like jailors than anything else, albeit very sadistic jailors who take pleasure in tormenting their charges.

As I understand it, any sufficiently powerful evil being that enters the Demiplane causes the creation of a new kingdom that they cannot leave. Why this couldn't work for a dragon, I wouldn't know. I don't see why dragons can't be in the plane.

However, the whole 'riding dragons' is a bit out-of-place for Ravenloft. If that's what he's determined to play, I suggest you switch settings, since he clearly wants to play a more heroic fantasy-type adventure.

[Mewtarthio]

However, the whole 'riding dragons' is a bit out-of-place for Ravenloft. If that's what he's determined to play, I suggest you switch settings, since he clearly wants to play a more heroic fantasy-type adventure.

Correction: If that's what he's determined to play, then he needs to find a new DM. The OP shouldn't have to switch settings to accomodate a single problem player.

[The New Bruceski]

I like the idea of a new domain belonging to a dracolich. As part of whatever made him gain ultimate power he could have dragged his foes with him, and torment them in various ways.

--A city under constant assault from undead and dragon-kin, whose residents have an ingrained hatred of all dragons. One of their defenders is a silver dragon in human form, who could shift and defend the city easily, but knows that if he did so the townsfolk would attack him until one side perished.

--A dragon who prizes knowledge (probably Brass) geining it, but everything is tainted by Ravenloft, filling him with despair. Essentially he can know anything, follow any train of thought, but it all proves futile in the end.

I'm sure others could be thought of. The idea I have is that the Dracolich does not have the ability to defeat his foes, and would lose if they could go against him, so he uses the power he does have to disable them and constantly hold them at bay, but he cannot relax from his vigilance.

[huttj509]

Paladins can be native to ravenloft, according to the 3.5 players handbook, page 50. However, "Evidence exists [...] that paladins are an aberration in the grand tapestry the dark powers have woven for themselves.[...]The deck seems stacked against them.

note also that darklords can sense a paladin's location to within a 1 mile radius with a successful sense motive check, DC 25-paladin's level. Stronger paladins are easier to sense. Extrordinary success means 100 foot radius.

[Tsotha-lanti]

As I understand it, any sufficiently powerful evil being that enters the Demiplane causes the creation of a new kingdom that they cannot leave. Why this couldn't work for a dragon, I wouldn't know. I don't see why dragons can't be in the plane.

Not exactly.

Rather, the reason extremely evil (not powerful; many darklords would be statted as Commoners, Warriors, Aristocrats, or Experts, and probably the majority were Fighters below level 10, with no magical items, in the AD&D version) beings enter Ravenloft to begin with is their evil. At the climax of their corruption, the Mists of Ravenloft envelop them and their surroundings, transforming it into a Domain in Ravenloft. This transition is probably unnoticeable to the inhabitants, who think they've lived there all their lives (and may, in fact, have been created as they are by the Mists), and even the Darklord may not really know what's going on.

The Darklord then begins to act out an endless parody of life, a tragic torment - the best ones are downright delicious, and most are at least poetic. Each Darklord is cursed in a manner fitting the motivation and nature of their crimes: Azalin, the lich, who sacrificed everything in his pursuit of magic, is unable to ever learn or create new magic; Strahd is cursed to forever look for his brother's fiance, who he killed, and to believe her reincarnated in woman after woman, all of whom end up dead; and so on.

I think there is one case where it went the other way around - Lord Soth entered Ravenloft on his own, and wandered through it for a while until his own Domain coalesced from the Mists.

[Narmoth]

Don't you think having a dragon as an ally to the party ruins a bit of the Ravenloft horror setting? I would not allow it, even if I had dragons in the setting.
I liked herrhauptmanns idea for dragon in ravenloft. If you make the dragon a human able to polymorph into a dragon (or the other way around if you must), you could have him operating mostly as a human, only turning into a dragon upon direct confrontation in battle

Check also out the play "Dragon" by Shwarts for ideas for a dragon dominated domain

[AslanCross]

I've never read or played Ravenloft, but I do agree that the core D&D dragons don't fit such a dark world. Maybe the dragons from Iron Kingdoms (truly epic monsters with unique breath weapons and who are practically avatars of corruption) would fit, but definitely not as mounts.

[Seatbelt]

However, the whole 'riding dragons' is a bit out-of-place for Ravenloft. If that's what he's determined to play, I suggest you switch settings, since he clearly wants to play a more heroic fantasy-type adventure.

He is the 7th player in the party. He needs me more than I need him. :P The rest of the players are content with The Story So Far. But my game hasn't been particularly horrorish yet while I get my bearings and establish myself in the world. So if they ultimately decide they don't like it it would be fairly trivial to turn it int a heroic dragon riding monster slaying n00b pwning funtastic time.

I like the idea of a dragon domain. I could tie it into the druid's backstory and make that work just fine. Of course, the players won't be going there for a while. But one of them has that cursed luckstone (as insurance for future plot-hooks in a completely different style from the early adventures) so there is no reason they can't go running frantically from the fantastically powerful beast dominating the domain as they try to destroy it.

He is a druid who was raised in a fairly barbaric style, amongst a clan of wolves, who were whiped out to the last by a white dragon, while he watched from hiding. So the horrible frost and terrible cold could make for some interesting survival as they battle against the elements while evading this guy who's done some Truly Evil Act as yet to be determined. :P

[azalinthegreat]

Hey, I'm kinda a Ravenloft fan, and just so you know there is at least one dragon in Ravenloft. She works with Azalin, and possible has a mate and eggs.

[Kerouac]

I'd just like to point out that anyone who doesn't think that a dragon can be a source of true horror and nightmare, look no further than Raistlin Majere on the back of Cyan Bloodbane...

[Mando Knight]

I'd just like to point out that anyone who doesn't think that a dragon can be a source of true horror and nightmare,

A giant monster with bat-wings, a massive jaw filled with long and sharp teeth, thick hide harder than iron yet as flexible as leather, and the ability to belch pure elemental chaos at their foes? How could that not be a source of horror and nightmare?

[holywhippet]

I think there is one case where it went the other way around - Lord Soth entered Ravenloft on his own, and wandered through it for a while until his own Domain coalesced from the Mists.

Not according to the novels. Soth was pulled into the mists with no prior knowledge or attempt to travel between the planes. His domain formed after he decided to chase his traitorous underling into the mists rather than continue on a path which should have led him home IIRC. I get the impression that he was being tested at that point - by following his anger he was damned to become a Dark Lord.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd just like to point out that anyone who doesn't think that a dragon can be a source of true horror and nightmare, look no further than Raistlin Majere on the back of Cyan Bloodbane...

That would be very scary, but not the gothic horror feel that is Ravenloft. Besides, Cyan was pretty lame for the power he had.
Warps entire elf realm into a nightmare. Gets beat when Tanis succeeds on a will save.
Later convinces some Xenophobic elves to set up a magical dome over their own country which 'slowly' kills them. Why didn't he just start going back to dragonform and destroying towns when no one was looking? No, instead his plan called for him to wait while the barrier killed them over the course of years, if not decades.
Sorry, was never a huge fan of Dragonlance except for certain exceptions. Definitely not a fan of the dragonlance D&D game. "Okay guys, now that we've helped Tanis do what we knew would happen, now we're going to go help Caramon!"
[/rant]