Naval Warfare and PC classes

[Scalenex]

Along time ago I started a thread talking about how PC classes would alter how armies conduct warfare. That thread got out of hand (I believe there was a horrible tangent on how may wizards real world countries could generate in 21st century), but I'm going to risk starting a similar one. How would PC classes affect naval warfare?

First off, one needs to figure out what the technology level your world is based off. I wasn't well versed in naval warfare in historical eras barring Themistocles' awesome victory. So I brushed up with Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_warfare

Before gunpowder was developed the tactics didn't seem to vary much. So assuming you have a pre-gunpowder world where people don't have freakish abilities. This are the options your naval commanders have to defeat their foes in ship-to-ship combat.

-Ramming, either puncture a hole (or several holes) so the vessels sinks. Or alternatively one can sideswipe an enemy ship to break enough of their oars that they can't maneuver very well (most early era ship relied on oarsmen for most of their power) or knock out the rudder to limit their ability to steer.

-Shooting, Maybe you have ballistas or catapults, maybe you just have crossbows or bows. Maybe your projectiles are incendiary. Either way you are either trying to damage/sink the ship or kill/injure the enemy crew.

-Boarding, Once aboard the ship you take out the other crew or convince them to surrender. I believe the norm was for one (or in some cases both sides) to pull the ships together with grappling hooks though there are other ways to do it, swinging from a rope is popular in swashbuckling adventure movies.

-The route you don't see in RPGs, Settle your conflict with diplomacy before you turn to bloodshed :)

Right rather than go class by class, lets go by broad types since most character classes fit one of these four types or blur the line between two of them.

Experts: Well sneaking onto an enemy ship and doing scoundrelly things isn't out of the question. Swim or take a long boat to the other ship and climb up the side when no one's looking is the most likely, but stowing away aboard when the ship is loading works too as do more abstract things. On one's own ship, Experts can motivate their crew. Also, it takes a lot of skills to run a ship and Experts have the most skill points.

Warriors: These guys come into their own during boarding actions of course. Swashbuckling combat favors the light agile warriors over tank warriors since they have less to worry about if they are knocked into the water and climb on the riggings and stuff and jump from ship to ship easier. Ranged combat builds also wouldn't be amiss.

Now neither of these guys significantly change the way naval battle would be conducted. The next two groups, Divine and Arcane casters would.

Now there are plenty of spells that can knock big wholes in structures including ships. Presumably ships would be made out of wood meaning they'd catch on fire relatively easily. That and ships have people in close quarters making them vulnerable to area of effect spells. This fits it the realm of "shooting."

Then there are the various summoning spells, these would fall into boarding or ramming based on how big the creature(s) you are using and what you are having them do.

Would ship-to-ship sea battles always go to side with more magical power (more casters, stronger casters and/or better spell selection)? Or would numbers, weapons, ship type, and the skill of the sailors still play important enough of factors to be the main determiners of the outcome?

On a related topic, do large aquatic creatures have innaccurate CRs? Considering that even if a party of PCs can beat it, there's a good chance that their ship is no longer sea worthy leading to a whole world of complications and meaning that the party has expended more of their resources on that encounter than the challenge rating system intended.

[Cheesegear]

Would ship-to-ship sea battles always go to side with more magical power (more casters, stronger casters and/or better spell selection)?

Yes. Always. A first level wizard can board the other ship and cast Burning Hands and set the opposing ship on fire. At first level.

Once you start with Ranged Fireballs, there's hardly a competition anymore. Then there's all sorts of crazy fog spells to limit visibilty. Maybe a caster can Mass Teleport some crew onto the opposing ship?

You already mentioned summonings. There's all sorts of underwater beasties about. Grab some water breathing and swim speed buffs and start poking/drilling holes in the opposing hull. All done underwater.

Control Weather so the sailed ships get buggered around. Call Lightning on the opposing boat...

Magic will ruin everything.

[AslanCross]

Magic will ruin everything.

Sad but true. Although my experience with this is not really naval warfare (more of a pirate encounter), the wizard dealt with the entire pirate force almost single-handedly.

1. Pirate ship is faster and carries more crew. Even the grunt buccaneers are Rog 1/Ftr 2s, so they aren't flat-out cannon fodder.
2. Pirate ship's mage opens fire on the PC ship with two fireballs. PC Wizard counterspells. He's got 2 levels on the Pirate wizard, so he counterspells with ease. He then retaliates with his own fireball.
3. Massive explosion on the pirate ship deck. The entire boarding party (except for the ogre berserker) is incinerated. By DM Fiat I ruled the remaining crew members (who were working in the masts) were able to put out stray sparks before the fire could spread. I didn't want this to end too quickly.
4. The pirate ship catches up for its first pass. The injured ogre leaps over, gets caught on the point of the enlarged paladin's blade, and dies before hitting the deck.
5. Pirate ship turns around for another pass. The rest of the crew gets ready to board. Ballistas on the pirate ship fire at the paladin.
6. Pirate ship rams. The PC Wizard casts black tentacles on the pirate ship, grappling the entire second wave of the boarding party AND the pirate wizard. By this time the pirates were really screwed.

Magic ruins everything. :P

[Moechi_Vill]

Oooh, I've always had a thing for naval warfare. *sigh*
This is beautiful.

[Eldariel]

The whole idea of naval movement in a world where every 50th person can fly and teleport stuff is pretty farfetched, especially since it's so much more perillious than in the real world. That said, if we assume a world where magic is relatively rare either by virtue of people not being born gifted or nobody being around to teach it, I'd say the few spellcasters around would indeed determine the outcome of a battle.

Simply having the means to summon creatures capable of wrecking vessels is enough, and then there're spells like Warp Wood, Disintegrate, Fireball, etc. that just deal insane damage to a boat.

And aquatic creatures have rather high CRs for their abilities, so I wouldn't say they're under-CRd (for example, Giant Squid is CR 9). Quick action is capable of saving a ship, and again, a spellcaster can use Repair-magic. Also, ships are quite a bit sturdier in D&D than in real life - it really takes a Kraken to wreck one, as you have to do attacks instead of being able to apply constant pressure until the hull gives in (and each attack is hit by hardness). Giant Squid is just unlike to have sufficient damage to pierce the Hardness enough to sink the ship.


But yea, like always, it comes down to the casters. Think about it though, what combat doesn't? In mass combat, few spells can kill thousands in few seconds, while few other spells can make the opposing side's non-magical attacks quite useless (Wind Wall for example, let alone Wall of Force or the like). Also, stuff like Control Winds/Control Weather is just huge in ship-to-ship combat or in army-to-army combat. A single spell can wreck the entire army. I'd actually take a page from the Complete Warrior and run armies involving magic more like modern era armies avoiding grouping together (in our world, the reason is artillery and air rides - in theirs, fireballs and dragons), using terrain for protection (blocking LoS/LoE is really the only way to survive magic for low-level characters in D&D) and mostly using ranged weapons such as Crossbows. This, of course, flies in the face of the idea of medieval combat, but so do AoE spells.

There's a reason every D&D world is really ruled by magicians :P

[Mercenary Pen]

Surely in any highish-magic world, most ships will have been enchanted with some-sort of protection from flame as standard?

[Zenos]

Sad but true. Although my experience with this is not really naval warfare (more of a pirate encounter), the wizard dealt with the entire pirate force almost single-handedly.

1. Pirate ship is faster and carries more crew. Even the grunt buccaneers are Rog 1/Ftr 2s, so they aren't flat-out cannon fodder.
2. Pirate ship's mage opens fire on the PC ship with two fireballs. PC Wizard counterspells. He's got 2 levels on the Pirate wizard, so he counterspells with ease. He then retaliates with his own fireball.
3. Massive explosion on the pirate ship deck. The entire boarding party (except for the ogre berserker) is incinerated. By DM Fiat I ruled the remaining crew members (who were working in the masts) were able to put out stray sparks before the fire could spread. I didn't want this to end too quickly.
4. The pirate ship catches up for its first pass. The injured ogre leaps over, gets caught on the point of the enlarged paladin's blade, and dies before hitting the deck.
5. Pirate ship turns around for another pass. The rest of the crew gets ready to board. Ballistas on the pirate ship fire at the paladin.
6. Pirate ship rams. The PC Wizard casts black tentacles on the pirate ship, grappling the entire second wave of the boarding party AND the pirate wizard. By this time the pirates were really screwed.

Magic ruins everything. :P

I find this hilarious.

Anyways, I am thinking about running a napoleonic era E6 campaign with ship battles in the style of the age of fighting sail. This attracted me to this thread. Although this seems to be about older warships like triremes and such. But yes, magic people can be rather difficult to make appropriate sea battles for. Just think what Warp Wood can do to your average wooden ship.

^@: What about water elemental-powered ironclads? Less flammable atleast.

[Eldariel]

Surely in any highish-magic world, most ships will have been enchanted with some-sort of protection from flame as standard?

It's very hard to enchant such a huge object. Rules don't really cover that. Also, you'd also need hardness enchantment for the sea monsters and such, that would otherwise wreck the boat with ease. And enchanting the hull would do zilch to protect the crew, especially the ones intent on actually fighting.

[Scalenex]

Well I'm still world building right now. I've been working on creating nation concepts. I've got three large nations that are in an uneasy power balance. A couple medium sized nations strong enough to deter would-be invaders and a couple small states. Problem is I'm having trouble coming up with reasons why the small states haven't been swallowed up by the larger ones. I was thinking of having one nation be an island or a group of islands that was a former colony of one of the larger nations. The idea was that the bigger nation could reconquer them but the effort and resources it would take to do so wouldn't be worth it. The problem is said larger nation has some of the best arcane casters in the world. Even if it were culturally difficult to occupy the islands, it still seems like it would be child's play to turn their merchant marine into driftwood.

[Mercenary Pen]

Well I'm still world building right now. I've been working on creating nation concepts. I've got three large nations that are in an uneasy power balance. A couple medium sized nations strong enough to deter would-be invaders and a couple small states. Problem is I'm having trouble coming up with reasons why the small states haven't been swallowed up by the larger ones. I was thinking of having one nation be an island or a group of islands that was a former colony of one of the larger nations. The idea was that the bigger nation could reconquer them but the effort and resources it would take to do so wouldn't be worth it. The problem is said larger nation has some of the best arcane casters in the world. Even if it were culturally difficult to occupy the islands, it still seems like it would be child's play to turn their merchant marine into driftwood.

Your best bet is to go for infighting as a reason. The casters may well not be going to sea in any large numbers if they're more concerned about fighting each other... You might also choose to add difficulties with arcane casting on the island(s) in question, or use powerful divine casters to offset the arcanists on the other side.

[Zenos]

Your best bet is to go for infighting as a reason. The casters may well not be going to sea in any large numbers if they're more concerned about fighting each other... You might also choose to add difficulties with arcane casting on the island(s) in question, or use powerful divine casters to offset the arcanists on the other side.

Maybe some kind of powerful patron, like a dragon? Could be taken down by the spellcasters, but would probably eat some ships and their resident wizards before dying.

[sebsmith]

In the pseudo-naval game I was playing crew killing weapons where most effective, since most ships are very tight on crews and the crews are generally represented as 1st level experts (the npc class). For instance, if my mage casts cloudkill on your ship, every single character below 3rd level automatically dies, and most of the rest of the crew are stuck in the cloud because you don't have enough people left to sail the ship out.

Another example is the dread necromancers we were supposedly going to meet. Since they controlled shades, which have a fly speed faster then most ships, they could slaughter our crew and there would be nothing we could do about it.

As to the reason smaller states haven't been swallowed up, if there are enough of them, then any state which tries to swallow them up would become the "bad guy" and everyone else would annihilate them. Instead, the small states have becomes "allies" of the bigger states to deter other states. Of course, this means there will be a lot of background scheming by the smaller states for the best deal, and it's possible for a small nation to convince each state they are actually allied with a different state without be allied to any at all.

[Hurlbut]

Maybe some kind of powerful patron, like a dragon? Could be taken down by the spellcasters, but would probably eat some ships and their resident wizards before dying.

Like a sea dragon with flippers for wings and back legs and a set of smaller arms for its front arms/legs. And a a fleshy growth from the dragon's head acts as a lure (bioluminescence at end of the growth) much like the angler fish.

[Flickerdart]

We seem to be pretending that ships are like ground. Casting from a boat that's engaged in combat manoeuvres would definitely call for some Concentration or maybe even Balance checks. Aren't there rules for casting from, say, a moving wagon or in harsh winds? This would be much the same or worse, probably applying both to the Concentration check.

Of course, there are ways around this, but it still means that your level 1 Burning Hands Wizard might very well botch his cast and get marauded by the enemy crew. I can see the wealthy captains installing special chambers on their boats to reduce the swaying and the winds so the Wizard can cast safely, and the poorer captains would just tie them to a mast and tell them to suck it up.

[esorscher]

For a long time, I thought about doing a water based campaign.

@ fireballs: Both sides can use them, and fireballs don't set fire.

@ burning hands: A 1st level wizard has about as much hitpoints as an ant. While he's boarding, he's easily taken out.

@ smaller states v. larger states: Read the monroe doctrine and the roosevelt corollary.

@ magic: The spells that would really be a problem are high level. Don't include high level npcs. You're the DM. Or just make it a low-magic campaign. Or, better yet, think Eberron. There hasn't been a high level NPC for centuries--even the kings and nobility aren't really much higher than level 10. By the time the PCs are able to cast these spells, they're also able to cast teleport, so there's no reason for them to be on the boat in the first place.

[RTGoodman]

Flickerdart's right about forcing Concentration on spellcasters, but I don't really think it'd be THAT big of a problem for them. If you assume a decent Con and max ranks, they SHOULD be able to make it. If not, well, sometimes there's a reason for Skill Focus (Concentration).

Also, a lot of this is assuming that everyone is only trying to DESTROY the opposing ship, which is sometimes (or maybe even often) a not-so-great idea. Realistically, a ship takes a while to be built, and if it's a really big or important ship, it's probably worth a LOT.

The focus, I would think, should be on killing the crew (or enslaving them) and keeping the ship unharmed so you can take it yourself. Pirates did it all the time, and though I don't know much about Classical naval warfare, I'd assume that the tactic was at least used occasionally.

In that case, fireball, disintegrate, warp wood, and stuff like that are BAD ideas. Instead, casters should probably focus on (1) buffing any allied boarding parties; (2) making it difficult for the opposing crew to stop any attacks; and (3) taking out said opposing crew if necessary, but with spells that won't damage the ship. For those last two, I'd go with sleep/deep slumber; maybe hypnotism, hypnotic pattern, and/or bardic music for fascination; animate rope; protection from arrows (at low levels); AOE save-or-sucks (web, glitterdust, maybe scare, etc.); and stuff like that. And all or most of those are just 2nd level spells or less.

[BRC]

Stormwrack talks about magic and ships. Of course, it keeps with the assumption that mages won't do anything crazy like link important cities with permanent teleportation circles, and seems to treat casters as ship buffers/ Cannons. But it's got a decent system for naval combat, although it only works with two ships fighting each other, it's not very compatable with fleet action unless you really like math.

[lisiecki]

Along time ago I started a thread talking about how PC classes would alter how armies conduct warfare. That thread got out of hand (I believe there was a horrible tangent on how may wizards real world countries could generate in 21st century), but I'm going to risk starting a similar one. How would PC classes affect naval warfare?

An army of level two aquatic druids.
Warp wood
fun times

[AslanCross]

For a long time, I thought about doing a water based campaign.

@ fireballs: Both sides can use them, and fireballs don't set fire.

They actually do, unless you're saying that the DM houserules they don't. Even lightning bolt says it sets combustibles on fire. (Strangely enough, I don't remember scintillating sphere saying that it sets things on fire.)


Anyway, things to consider:
-Aquatic rangers. The pirates in that encounter had an elf sniper up in the masts as both their crow's nest spotter and captain killer. She had a shark for an animal companion to harry any survivors. (In this case it was the captain of the PCs' ship, who got sniped and thrown overboard when the pirates rammed.)
-Siege weapons are definitely helpful. Ballistae and catapults would do very well. The pirates had both a heavy ballista and several mounted repeating crossbows.
-Swinging with rigging. Pretty fun way to get around the cramped deck of pitching ships. Just make sure you don't fall off. Like the pirate captain did.
He was swinging onto the PCs' ship (which was already tilting 45 degrees because of the ramming)...and failed his reflex save to land properly. He ended up hanging over the side. The PC ranger took her time sticking his fingers with her swords. Eventually he did manage to get back up, but the PC wizard baleful polymorphed him into a snail.
-They'd better know how to <insert obvious sailing skill here>.
The hobgoblin gunner on the pirates' side was a mean killing machine. He fought with two katars, and also knew how to fire a big ballista.
But he didn't know how to swim.
The PC Ranger (who has swordsage levels) threw him overboard.
The sight of a big hobgoblin in chainmail wielding two katars sinking into the sea is pretty pathetic.

[RS14]

It's very hard to enchant such a huge object. Rules don't really cover that. Also, you'd also need hardness enchantment for the sea monsters and such, that would otherwise wreck the boat with ease. And enchanting the hull would do zilch to protect the crew, especially the ones intent on actually fighting.

Rules don't cover that because D&D isn't a game about naval warfare. I think it's reasonable to assume that most settings have gobs of spells that simply aren't published because they're so specific (like "create cupcake"). If you're going to play a naval campaign, homebrew some rules, spells, feats, etc. to make it work well.

[LongVin]

It's very hard to enchant such a huge object. Rules don't really cover that. Also, you'd also need hardness enchantment for the sea monsters and such, that would otherwise wreck the boat with ease. And enchanting the hull would do zilch to protect the crew, especially the ones intent on actually fighting.

While it is not represented in game rules, in the Salvatore "The Pirate King" novel it is stated that the ships, atleast in this case the Sea Sprite and the other fighting ships in the novel had some form of enchantments placed on their decks and siding to mitigate the effects of magic.

These defenses however did not extend to the belly of the ship.

[Oslecamo]

One word:

Airships

That's how nabal warfare goes in D&D.

Also, there's several big aquatic monsters wich can be charmed/trained to be used as living trasnports.

Normal wooden ships just don't have a chance.

[Triaxx]

Naval Warfare? I love Naval Warfare. In D&D you need to remember counter spell. Wizard casting fireball? Your wizard needs to be counter spelling or he's in for a bad day, because if it doesn't kill him, the rest of the crew might well.

Shielding spells, which have to be homebrewed, are exceedingly useful in naval warfare. Have a wizard throwing fireballs? Evocation Shield. Trying to summon things on your deck? Conjuration Shield.

Anti-magic Field Cannonballs/Crossbow bolts are another fun weapon. Shoot that into the enemy ship and he can't magically attack you. Now you can close and board his ship. Summoning Fire Elementals on his deck is also fun. The enviroment can support them, being full of things to burn. The ship sinking might kill them, but...

Chasing a ship with more oars than you and it's getting away? Send the caster into the air to use Web. Go after the oars rather than the rowers or crew, because you can do it at the water level and out of reach of most ranged weapons.

Turns really should be run 2e style. Each ship declares what it's going to try, and then the combat within is resolved. Most spells such as Fireball become counterable/interruptible.

[Eldariel]

Rules don't cover that because D&D isn't a game about naval warfare. I think it's reasonable to assume that most settings have gobs of spells that simply aren't published because they're so specific (like "create cupcake"). If you're going to play a naval campaign, homebrew some rules, spells, feats, etc. to make it work well.

As far as I remember, the specific naval extension, Stormwrack (which is ****ing superawesome btw) didn't cover it either...

[BRC]

As far as I remember, the specific naval extension, Stormwrack (which is ****ing superawesome btw) didn't cover it either...

seconded on stormwrack being awsome, PIRATE MONKEYS!

But anyway. Stormwrack covered two ships fighting, but not big fleet-action naval warfare.

[Prometheus]

Yeah casters simply ruin it. Therefore you have to make your pirate ship better to compensate. Attack them with multiple ships in the middle of the storm. Or have them fight a massive ship with magical defenses euivalent to an iron-clad. Or have a dedicated caster or two on each ship counterspelling evocation.

[Eldariel]

Ships can house persistent magical effects. Use your imagination - the best defense vs. magic is magic. How about Permanent Anti-Magic Fields? Spell Turnings? The like seems pretty good.

[kjones]

In pre-industrial naval warfare, sinking ships was not the primary objective, simply because it wasn't practical or efficient. Ships were made of wood, and wood floats, so in order to sink one you'd need to make a hole in the hull below the waterline, and even then it's a slow process. It's much more efficient to destroy the masts and rigging and/or kill the crew. Furthermore, these methods leave the ship itself mostly intact - you can then capture it at your leisure.

Magic changes this somewhat, but the fundamental fact remains that ships made of wood are hard to sink. Naval combat in D&D should reflect this.

[Eldariel]

In pre-industrial naval warfare, sinking ships was not the primary objective, simply because it wasn't practical or efficient. Ships were made of wood, and wood floats, so in order to sink one you'd need to make a hole in the hull below the waterline, and even then it's a slow process. It's much more efficient to destroy the masts and rigging and/or kill the crew. Furthermore, these methods leave the ship itself mostly intact - you can then capture it at your leisure.

Magic changes this somewhat, but the fundamental fact remains that ships made of wood are hard to sink. Naval combat in D&D should reflect this.

Magic changes it heavily though. Now it takes 6 seconds and wave of a hand to make that hole. Same amount of effort could of course turn the entire ship sentient or something...

[kjones]

Magic changes it heavily though. Now it takes 6 seconds and wave of a hand to make that hole. Same amount of effort could of course turn the entire ship sentient or something...

But that's just my point. A ship with a hole in it takes a while to sink - it's still made of wood, after all. More efficient to kill the crew or disable the rigging.

And then you get to keep the ship. Capturing enemy ships was very, very common, and it's much cheaper than building more.