[3.5] What would the child of a half-elf be?

[newbDM]

I am currently watching a documentary on the Science Channel concerning animal and possibly human hybrids, and have just looked up some information on rare fertile mule hybrids (have not found anything about other fertile hybrids).

Link to mule article with the fertile mules section:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertile_mules


This got me thinking about what the offspring of a half-elf would be, or if they can even reproduce. Would they be like mules in that only females/rare females half-elves can reproduce, and even then it is only because they accidentally got a full set of the genes needed to reproduce from A or B parent, meaning depending which of the original A or B race she mated with the offspring would end up being either 100% of race A (even though she is a hybrid herself) or another mix hybrid (you need to see the article above to understand)?

[monty]

Depends what the other parent is.

[AslanCross]

If I'm not mistaken, half-elves breed true.

Half-elf + human would result in either half-elf or human, while the same would be true for a half-elf and an elf.

[Fishy]

Yup. It's in Races of Destiny.

Magic > Genetics.

[LibraryOgre]

The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.

[newbDM]

Yup. It's in Races of Destiny.

Magic > Genetics.

But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

[Dervag]

All the precedents in the D&D books say that half-elves are fertile.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.

That is correct, I'm fairly certain.

[monty]

Since when does D&D use real-world genetics anyway?

[Kizara]

Since when does D&D use real-world genetics anyway?

Dragon + Ooze = Half-Dragon Ooze... What?

Solar + rat= Half-Celestial Rat... the?

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?

[Deth Muncher]

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon

You forgot:

Fiend + Fiend = Half-Fiend Fiend

[skywalker]

I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

[RTGoodman]

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?

Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon, so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

[UglyPanda]

...
Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell?

The other half is also Demon.

I don't think D&D has rules for genetics at all. It just has rules for template stacking and common sense.

[Kizara]

You forgot:

Fiend + Fiend = Half-Fiend Fiend

Actually that was exactly what I was refering to.

Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon, so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

LOL.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

So, no humans exist?

[Lemur]

Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon, so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other. Sounds like a tale for the bards.


Edit: So did anyone else think of Metal Gear and "flawed recessive genes" when reading this thread? :P

[KKL]

At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other.

They fight crime.

[skywalker]

So, no humans exist?

No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

No... Not everyone mates with half-elves... I'm just thinking about the geneologies in Tolkien's works, there were only ever 3 "half-elves," but their descendants were also "half-elves." For instance, Elrond was half-elven, given the choice between mortal life and immortal life. His daughter, Arwen, was technically not a half-elf. She was more a 3 quarters elf. But she was still given the choice, a long with her brothers.

Similarly, Aragorn was descended from Elrond's twin brother, altho through many generations. But he technically still had Elven blood.

In Tolkien, tho, the Elves only breed with Elves, and when they do breed with humans, those humans' descendants are only allowed to breed with other high-born, etc. It's very classist, you know? So humans do exist. There are actually even fewer "half-elves" than there are in D&D, probably, even if you do consider descendants half-elves.

What I mean is that since elves have generally been around for a long time in many settings(generally, significantly more than humans, or at least no less), wouldn't their genes spread through most of the population(ignoring natural selection which would make them die off due to half-elves sucking).

[newbDM]

At first I wondered why a white and copper dragon would consider mating, but then I thought of both dragons polymorphing into humans to try to mate with another human, and ending up with each other. Sounds like a tale for the bards.

Now I keep thinking of funny scenarios with that crazy couple. The quirky and joke making copper, and the permanently PMSing white misses back at home demanding human flavored ice cream a dwarven pickels.

They would make for some interesting NPCs...

[monty]

What I mean is that since elves have generally been around for a long time in many settings(generally, significantly more than humans, or at least no less), wouldn't their genes spread through most of the population(ignoring natural selection which would make them die off due to half-elves sucking).

My impression was they reproduce much less frequently to make up for it.

[ShadowFighter15]

The general rules, as I remember them, is Human + Half-elf = Human; Elf + Half-elf = Elf. Half-elf + Half-elf = Half-elf.

This is how I've seen it too, though the quarter-breed will still have traits of the other species. So the child of a human and a half-elf will be a human, but still have elven traits (not enough to be bothered with in the rules, thought) while the child of an elf and a half-elf will be an elf with slightly human features.

[Starsinger]

I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

[kamikasei]

I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

It's complicated. Elrond and his brother are not the first or only half-elves. They are the products of a couple of elf/human pairings coming together after a few generations and they happen to be the two still around when the gods do some restructuring of Middle-earth. Since the gods aren't quite sure what to do with them, they give them a choice: be counted as elves, or as men; and the choice extends to their offspring (at least, to Elrond's. I don't think his brother, who chose to be counted among Men, got to pass on that choice).

So Arwen was an elf, and immortal, and if she chose she could have sailed to the West and lived forever in paradise (as the other elves did). She instead chose to be counted among Men and grow old and die truly, though she lived as an elf for three thousand years before making that choice.

It's not really got anything to do with genetics.

[/tangent]

So anyway - it depends on the setting. My default assumption is that a half-elf's child will be either a half-elf or whatever it's three-quarters of. In some settings, e.g. Eberron, half-elves are their own race (though even there it may work out the same if you have a half-elf/elf or /human pairing).

[Kaiyanwang]

Dragon + Ooze = Half-Dragon Ooze... What?

Solar + rat= Half-Celestial Rat... the?

Demon + Demon = Half-Demon Demon... Hell Abyss?

Better this way

[SoD]

Hey, WotC actually statted out a Half-White Dragon Copper Dragon, so I think a Half-Demon Demon or whatever is perfectly fine.

So? You can legally create a half-red-dragon-half-white-dragon-half-gold-dragon Bronze Dragon.

[Project_Mayhem]

So? You can legally create a half-red-dragon-half-white-dragon-half-gold-dragon Bronze Dragon.

'Cept in the linked article it points out that the Draconomican says you cant apply the half-dragon template to dragons.

[Tsotha-lanti]

But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

It sure ain't genetics, and that only leaves magic.

It ain't genetics because it doesn't make sense. If humans and elves can breed, and especially if the offspring can breed true, then they are not separate species, and would have a common origin. In most D&D worlds, this is not so. (Faerûn being a prominent one.) In a very few, they are actually related (Athas being the main one).

If humans and elves can breed, and humans and orcs can breed, then elves and orcs should be able to breed. This logic extends to all the other races.

That's another issue - for reasons lost to antiquity (e.g. Gygax etc. being stupid and not understanding what "race" means), they're called races, not species, even though it appears clear they are species. This muddies the matter further.

I follow Tolkien. So Half-Elves are fertile. And every child of every child of every child (and so on) of a half-elf is also a half-elf.

That doesn't sound like Tolkien to me. By your logic, Aragorn is a half-elf.

There's a considerable amount of weirdness with the Middle Earth half-elves (Beren and Luthien's line isn't even the only one; in fact, Elrond and Elros are the descendants of two separate houses of half-elves). For one thing, they got to pick whether they were an elf or a human. (Although it seems like the default was elf, but they could, at any point, make the irrevokable choice to be a mortal human.)

Generally, the children of half-elves are half-elves, but only up to a point. That point seems to be the choice; Elros' descendents were apparently full men, just nobler and greater by virtue of their elven blood. (Well, probably. Really, the High Men were practically the equals of elves in strength, nobility, and other qualities - they just didn't have as long to hone them.)

Aragorn's elven (and Maiar; don't forget that Luthien herself was only half elf; the other half was Maia) blood was pretty much nonexistent, and by the Third Age, its effects were probably none. The Dúnedain of the Third Age - even of the pure lines, like Aragorn's apparently was (the line of Gondor was mixed with Northman blood in the mid-Third Age, causing the Kinstrife) - were not as great in stature or nearly as long-lived as the men of the great houses of the First Age they were descended from. Aragorn's incredibly long lifespan would probably have been considered short in the First Age.

So, no humans exist?

Only the Dúnedain are descended partly from elves. Admittedly, they mixed with the local peoples so much that by the end of the Third Age, most of the people of Eriador and Gondor would, indeed, be half-elves by skywalker's logic.

I was under the impression that despite Elrond being half-elf, Arwen was not.

She was. Maybe it was because Elrond was doubly half-elven. Well, er, actually... Earendil was half-elven, Elwing was 3/4-elven, so Elrond is 5/8-elven or something? Anyway, Arwen was allowed the choice of mortality or immortality, and chose mortality. That indicates she was, indeed, half-elven.

Of course, the whole choice thing may not be related to being half-elf so much as it is related to being descended from Luthien (technically a half-elf herself), who gave up her immortality to bring Beren back from the dead. (Really, Aragorn and Arwen's romance is just a pale reflection of Beren and Luthien.)

[lisiecki]

But how does magic play a part in this? Not everything in D&D has magic involved. Some things are still done the old fashion way.

Well you have to remember this is a setting where some wizard made owlbears by getting an owl and a bear to make sweet, sweet love...

there is no science here, only madness