Shurikens (3.5)

[Mephit]

I made a build for the ' To Boldly Suck Where No One Has Sucked Before' thread, and uh...it went surprisingly easy.

I've always ignored the shuriken pretty much, but now I get to think about it: Does it have a use?
The only special quality I can think of is that a monk can flurry with it from a distance, but 2x1d2+Str damage at 10 ft. distance isn't that impressive.

So I have to ask: has anyone ever used this weapon? And if so, was it any good?

[Tengu_temp]

I've heard of a certain Crusader build... *gets shot*

[Lapak]

In the real world, shurikens fall into the same category as pretty much every throwing knife: they serve as an excellent distraction but a poor lethal weapon. It takes an extremely lucky hit to cause life-threatening damage with them. So people either threw them in order to facilitate another action (distract and attack with a melee weapon, distract and run away) or poisoned them.

D&D doesn't really have rules to cover how flinching away from or defending against a thrown weapon distracts an opponent, so that leaves poison (or enchantments, which are similar) as the only effective shuriken tactic.

Though a house rule to allow thrown weapons to act as an automatic Feint (or a pseudo-flank, or denial of Opportunity Attacks, or something) would definitely be one way to bring them back into play.

[FinalJustice]

I suppose some cheesed-out Sneak Attack/Skirmish build would benefit for the extra attack from a 1 level dip in monk and shuriken flurry. But since Bloodstorm Blade, it strikes me as pointless. Why would one throw little bits of metal when he can throw axes (aside from stealth, of course)?

[Smiley_]

I suppose you could easily conceal poisoned shuriken whereas axes and hammers usually draw unwanted attention.

[Jasdoif]

Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

[ericgrau]

As far as I can tell their main purpose seems to be to give the monk a range option. I'd save them for disrupting spellcasters and other situations where you really must use range, but in general stick to different weapons.

FWIW shurikens and crossbows are the only ranged weapons that can be used while prone. Being prone gives a +4 AC against ranged attacks (but -4 vs. melee).

Shurikens are also very easy to conceal on one's person, even more so than a dagger.

[Wih]

Cheap enchantments - for what you'd pay for a once-off Disinergrate enchantment on your longsword, you can get 50 of them on shuriken.
Quick draw - since they're treated as ammunition for many purposes, you can draw them as a free action without needing the quick draw feat.

[Starsinger]

Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

I'm fairly certain flaming frost and shock don't stack, but I don't remember where (if) I saw that.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm fairly certain flaming frost and shock don't stack, but I don't remember where (if) I saw that.

They do. Multiple energy additions work.

[Starsinger]

They do. Multiple energy additions work.

Oh... is it that Flaming and Flaming Burst don't stack that I was thinking of?

[arguskos]

Oh... is it that Flaming and Flaming Burst don't stack that I was thinking of?

Yeah, those don't stack.

On topic, I have a houserule that a character can throw more than one shuriken or dart at a target in one attack action. I figure, they do such little damage (even with energy enhancements and sneak attack/sudden strike), you should be able to toss a few at the bad guy before he comes over there and smacks your face in.

Also, it lets my weird Ninja/Master Thrower do silly things with Two With One Shot and Palm Throw!

[Keld Denar]

Flaming and Flaming (or Flaming x2) don't stack. It is posible to prismatically enchant a weapon, like a bow, with one of every energy type. This would start to get REALLY pricy though, after about the 3rd enchant. There are better things out there, really.

If you had something like my Flick build, you could Flurry, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Palm Throw Shurikens, which, with optimized Dragonfire Inspiration would net you a metric crapton of +fire damage. Of course, and thing with DR and/or Fire Resistance/Immunity is just gonna laugh at you...

Monk1/Bard4/Fighter2/Warblade8/MasterThrower5 could boost Dancing Mongoose giving attacks:

4 Mainhand
3 Offhand
2 Dancing Mongoose
1 Rapid Shot
1 Flurry
= 11 attacks per round, which doubles to 22 with Palm Throw

Now, Bard20 (Bard12 + Vest of Legends + Chaos Music) with Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, and Song of the Heart would grant +7 bard song, translating into +7d6 per hit, giving us 154d6 fire damage per round, assuming all hits, inflicing ~539 average damage before weapon damage and strength is factored in. Not the greatest, but not too shabby. My build does it with daggers, but you could easily replace Quickdraw with EWP:Suriken, and all you lose is 2 attacks per round, or about 14d6 damage.

[NEO|Phyte]

I've heard of a certain Crusader build... *gets shot*

You mean the one that requires melee attacks, which shuriken can't be used for?

[Draz74]

You mean the one that requires melee attacks, which shuriken can't be used for?

Yeah, but you can just get into Bloodstorm Blade cheese that lets you count a thrown attack as melee for all purposes.

[NEO|Phyte]

Yeah, but you can just get into Bloodstorm Blade cheese that lets you count a thrown attack as melee for all purposes.

True enough, but that's an extra two levels onto the build. Much simpler to be a Small creature and punch things.

[Mephit]

My build does it with daggers, but you could easily replace Quickdraw with EWP:Suriken, and all you lose is 2 attacks per round, or about 14d6 damage.

Ooh, that's an interesting suggestion. I don't really like Dragonfire Inspiration, but I can see wh you're going with this.
Minor nitpick: Shurikens count as ammunition, so they're a free action to draw anyway.

[Keld Denar]

Minor nitpick: Shurikens count as ammunition, so they're a free action to draw anyway.

Exactly. And my build uses daggers. Search the forums for Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger. Daggers aren't ammo, and thus need to be drawn as weapons, thus needing Quickdraw. If you changed to a Shuriken build, you wouldn't need Quickdraw anymore, but you WOULD need EWP: Shuriken...although actually, you wouldn't, cause Monk1 would ive it to you...never mind. Free feat. LOL!

[Hal]

Shuriken can make useful emergency weapons because they're considered ammunition for the purpose of crafting special versions of them. So adding, for example, +1 flaming frost shock to a single shuriken only costs 640gp, compared to the 32,000gp it'd take to add it to another weapon. You can likely afford a handful of shuriken with more weapon properties then whatever primary weapon you have. They're also considered ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, so drawing them is a free action even without Quick Draw.

But as a primary weapon, they do leave much to be desired.

I could see this being a great utility thing for special situation weapons. I imagine Explosive or Magebane shuriken would be very useful. If you're multiclassing with Rogue, Deadly Precision shuriken would probably be nice, too, as you'll get off that sneak attack without having to worry about drawing a weapon or moving into range.

[Starscream]

Yeah, poisoning them and using them as cheap magical weapons are the primary advantage. Also, I don't know if this is covered in RAW, but I can imagine that being made of metal they are much less likely to break than most forms of ammunition. If I were DM I'd probably allow them to be retrieved without a roll. Combine that with the magic thing and they can come in handy.

[Hal]

Yeah, poisoning them and using them as cheap magical weapons are the primary advantage. Also, I don't know if this is covered in RAW, but I can imagine that being made of metal they are much less likely to break than most forms of ammunition. If I were DM I'd probably allow them to be retrieved without a roll. Combine that with the magic thing and they can come in handy.

RAW, shuriken have the same properties as arrows in terms of what happens to them when they're fired. Which is why they can be so cheap to make. Otherwise you could very cheaply enchant a +10 equivalent shuriken and then retrieve it mid-battle fairly easily.

[Thurbane]

The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party uses them to reasonable effect: 18 STR, FoB, RS, PBS, Far Shot...at up to 30 feet, he's shooting out 4 per round for 1d2+5 damage each.

Not great by any means, but not as bad as usual...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Deep Dwarf Monk in my current party uses them to reasonable effect: 18 STR, FoB, RS, PBS, Far Shot...at up to 30 feet, he's shooting out 4 per round for 1d2+5 damage each.

Not great by any means, but not as bas as usual...

The problem is that it is probably easy to deal far more damage with different weapons. What level?

[Thurbane]

The problem is that it is probably easy to deal far more damage with different weapons. What level?

Level 8. It's his first time playing a Monk in 3.5 (last time would have been 1E).

We did all try to warn him against investing so heavily (in terms of feats) in shuriken, but he had the proverbial "bee in his bonnet". My group are far from powergamers (I'm basically the only one in the group who even remotely optimizes), so it's not a huge deal...the hard part is usually convincing him to put down the shuriken and melee.

[RS14]

I did once try to argue that returning can be applied to shuriken to allow them to return intact despite being ammunition. At the least, I still think it should decrease the rate at which they are lost or destroyed, as they can no longer be lost.

[Hal]

I did once try to argue that returning can be applied to shuriken to allow them to return intact despite being ammunition. At the least, I still think it should decrease the rate at which they are lost or destroyed, as they can no longer be lost.

Where in the rules does it say that ammunition can't have Returning?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Where in the rules does it say that ammunition can't have Returning?

Normally it can't. The entry reads:

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

It doesn't work on ammo, since arrows cannot be thrown except as improvised weapons(though by RAW 'improvised throwing weapons' would be allowed, anything could be thrown then, which would make that line nonsensical). However, it does work on Shuriken, for obvious reasons.

[Stephen_E]

With Shuriken been a thrown weapon you add your Str to damage which can be quite nice for creatures like Ogres.

Otherwise a Artificer/Master Thrower build can be very scary, with either Monk or Ranger for TWF or Flurry, and one level of Exotic Weaponmaster.
Artificer means you will always have magic Shuriken, and with a round's warning and an action point you will have shurikens that are Bane whatever you're fighting.
Weak Spot means you're making Touch attacks (no Str damage).
Palm Throw means you throw teo shuriken with each attack (no Str damage).
Two with one blow means you attack adjacent targets with 1 weapon (-4 attack).
Close Quarters Ranged combat means that you can use exotic ranged weapons in combat without attracting an AOO.

Stephen E

[Animefunkmaster]

Returning

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown.

Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons

Ya, you can add returning to shuriken by RAW.

[holywhippet]

You could use an enlarge spell to make the player a size category bigger. Or you could bend the rules and let them use large sized shurikens.