Am i right?

[Immutep]

EDIT*forgot to state, version 3.5
The rules state you get additional hit points at each level based on your constitution modyfier, normally. I would take this to mean if at level 2, your constitution bonus is +2 you get an extra 2 hit points. The problem occurs when you get an alteration to your constitution bonus later on, does this enhance the hit points per level accrued up to that point?

The reasons i believe this to be the case are as follows

1) when a barbarian rages, his temporary bonus gives him extra temporary hit points per level based on his new constitution modyfier.

2)If the character starts to suffer negative levels, it will start to get tricky working out there hit points if this isn't the case.

Also, as a side note. Does this principle then apply to other bonus related extras, like skill points?

If i am totally barking up the wrong tree here, please explain as concisely as possible in what respects and what actually happens. I played my D&D games this way for two years now, but a new member to the club says that it's the wrong way of doing it. Do i have to start insisting on keeping old character sheets for every level up in case of a negative level occuring?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Skill points are based on your Int at levelup. They never are gained or go away except when levels are lost. HP are calculated as HD*level+Con*level. Con changes change HP, and it is assumed when your Con drops that your HP will drop similarly. Which is why Barbarian Rage sometimes sucks.

[Immutep]

That is what i thought all along, thanks for clearing that up.

[Tacoma]

It seems like INT skill points are just about the only case where raising a stat doesn't affect the dependent feature. Any other examples?

[RTGoodman]

Stoopidtallkids's right - HERE's the official citation:

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

@Tacoma: Yeah, that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. There's probably others, but I'm not gonna go looking for 'em.

[Draz74]

It seems like INT skill points are just about the only case where raising a stat doesn't affect the dependent feature. Any other examples?

INT and number of Bonus Languages.

[Immutep]

INT and number of Bonus Languages.

Surely bonus languages just don't apply because you gain them upon character creation?

[Burley]

If your INT modifier goes up, you have the capacity to learn a new language. And, don't call me Shirley.

[Person_Man]

Barbarian 5 with 18 Con, 50 hit points.

Barbarian enters a Rage. This increases his Con to 22, which increases his hit points by 2 points per level (+10), to 60 hit points.

Barbarian fights enemies, and takes 61 points of damage, lowing his hit points to -1.

Even though he's unconscious, apparently its a very angry sleep, because by RAW Rage continues. When the Rage ends, the Barbarian's Con is reduced back to 18, which decreases his hit points by 2 points per level (-10), to -11 hit points. The Barbarian dies.

Rage is a lousy mechanic. In the best case scenario, you can stack up a bunch of different rage-like abilities and go nova for one combat. But in most cases, it provides a minor bonus that usually ends up screwing you at the end of combat unless you have a healer standing close by.

[Immutep]

Barbarian 5 with 18 Con, 50 hit points.

Barbarian enters a Rage. This increases his Con to 22, which increases his hit points by 2 points per level, or +10, to 60 hit points.

Barbarian fights enemies, and takes 61 points of damage, lowing his hit points to -1.

Even though he's unconscious, apparently its a very angry sleep, because by RAW Rage continues. When the Rage ends, the Barbarian's Con is reduced back to 18, which decreases his hit points by 2 points per level, or -10, to -11 hit points. The Barbarian dies.

Rage is a lousy mechanic. In the best case scenario, you can stack up a bunch of different rage-like abilities and go nova for one combat. But in most cases, it provides a minor bonus that usually ends up screwing you at the end of combat unless you have a healer standing close by.

Erm hello? D12 +4 HP x5 with at least the first roll being a 12 automatically. 50 HP's? that suggests you need to practise rolling! Plus, if the example you'd given hadn't put it straight to -11, then the Die Hard feat usually keeps you up and about enough to get to a healer.

[Tacoma]

This comes up in a lot of games where you gain temporary HP and lose them after some time. Damage occurs meanwhile, so you die when the supposedly helpful effect wears off.

We always just played it that if the Rage gives you +10 buffer HP from the Rage source, you cannot stack sources but you can stack buffer HP from different sources, and damage comes from buffer HP first. When you end rage you lose any remaining buffer HP. Effectively every time he rages he gets 10 free HP but he can't stack that up to more than 10 with multiple rages. But it's possible to end the fight without having taken any real damage, only taken from your free Rage HP.

Another way to count it is that when you're done raging you lose the bonus HP but said loss cannot reduce you below zero HP. So if you were at -1, you'd still be at -1, but if you ended at 9 HP and lost 10 bonus you'd be at zero (stable).

Although it completely makes sense that the barbarian could fight past normal limits and then drop dead when his rage ends. It's just darned inconvenient.

[Matthew]

Erm hello? D12 +4 HP x5 with at least the first roll being a 12 automatically. 50 HP's? that suggests you need to practise rolling! Plus, if the example you'd given hadn't put it straight to -11, then the Die Hard feat usually keeps you up and about enough to get to a healer.

Not really, that's actually slightly higher than the average result [12 + (4 x 6.5 = 26) + (5 x 4 = 20)].

Barbarian 5 with 18 Con, 50 hit points.

Barbarian enters a Rage. This increases his Con to 22, which increases his hit points by 2 points per level (+10), to 60 hit points.

Barbarian fights enemies, and takes 61 points of damage, lowing his hit points to -1.

Even though he's unconscious, apparently its a very angry sleep, because by RAW Rage continues. When the Rage ends, the Barbarian's Con is reduced back to 18, which decreases his hit points by 2 points per level (-10), to -11 hit points. The Barbarian dies.

Rage is a lousy mechanic. In the best case scenario, you can stack up a bunch of different rage-like abilities and go nova for one combat. But in most cases, it provides a minor bonus that usually ends up screwing you at the end of combat unless you have a healer standing close by.

Would it make a difference if temporary constitution meant temporary hit points, I wonder?

[Tacoma]

Not really, that's actually slightly higher than the average result [12 + (4 x 6.5 = 26) + (5 x 4 = 20)].

12 + 26 + 20 = 58.

If the average is 58, and he has 50, he is below average.

But aren't they all?

[theMycon]

Not really, that's actually slightly higher than the average result [12 + (4 x 6.5 = 26) + (5 x 4 = 20)].

That gives you 58, though.

I don't think that's less than 50.

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Even though he's unconscious, apparently its a very angry sleep, because by RAW Rage continues. When the Rage ends, the Barbarian's Con is reduced back to 18, which decreases his hit points by 2 points per level (-10), to -11 hit points. The Barbarian dies.

Well, the alternative is to have the rage expire when the Barbarian goes unconscious...which in this case kills him instantly. The lesson seems to be that if you're a healer and you have a Barbarian or other rager in the party, you need to be aware that he may need healing in a more immediate fashion than others do.

Rage is a lousy mechanic. In the best case scenario, you can stack up a bunch of different rage-like abilities and go nova for one combat. But in most cases, it provides a minor bonus that usually ends up screwing you at the end of combat unless you have a healer standing close by.

Is there another way to run the Rage mechanic? B/c if you just remove it from the barbarian, he's worse than a Fighter. Also, if you have more than one rage-like ability, you can often use them more than once per day, so you can go nuts for more than one combat.

The lesson HERE seems to be that if you're the Barbarian, it would do you well to end your rage near the party healer. If you don't have a party healer, your party is doing something wrong anyway

-JM

[Matthew]

12 + 26 + 20 = 58.

If the average is 58, and he has 50, he is below average.

But aren't they all?

That gives you 58, though.

I don't think that's less than 50.

Yeah, yeah...

[Immutep]

My barbarian takes the Die Hard Feat[TM] and always has a potion of cure light wounds[TM] handy for emergencies. At later levels this is in his Hewards Handy Haversack[TM] for ease of access. This allows him to concentrate on the job at hand (killing the ppl trying to kill the party) before needing to worry about the rage ending with him dead. It's a fairly simple method but works most of the time. if the 50gp potion doesn't put him on the healthy side of 0 straight away, then he was probably not going to live through this encounter anyways, and he gets a free pass into the halls of valhalla for his courageous end!

Life's good when you're trying to get yourself killed!

[kamikasei]

If your INT modifier goes up, you have the capacity to learn a new language. And, don't call me Shirley.

I don't think you do. You know a number of languages at character creation based on your Int modifier. If you want to learn more languages after that, you have to spend skill points in Speak Language.

[Immutep]

Speaking of speak language. Since the rules state that it is a skill, and that to gain a rank in a skill that is not a class skill (i.e. a cross class skill) you must spend 2 skill points. And the rules for speak language say you can read write and speak any language you know (assuming you're not illiterate), even if you don't have speak language as a class skill, you need only spend 2 skill points to become a fluent speaker of a brand new language (broken)

[Tacoma]

The whole skill system is a sandcastle with a wave crashing down upon it. The only reason it stays together is the false assumption that it makes sense. It disguises itself in the Rank system. You think, 2 skill points to learn a Rank in a cross-class skill, seems like learning is slow. But yet you can spend 2 ranks to learn how to Tumble, which you never knew how to do before. Or if you're a Bard you can learn like 5 languages per level. It's crazy.

[Person_Man]

Erm hello? D12 +4 HP x5 with at least the first roll being a 12 automatically. 50 HP's? that suggests you need to practise rolling!

It's an example. I picked 50 because it made the math easier. But it's certainly possible that a 5th level Barbarian could have 50 hit points. As a DM, I give each PC the choice of average hit points (12 + 7 + 6 + 7 + 6) or rolling (12 + 4d12). In every single game there is a PC who insists on rolling hit die who has rolled at least one 1, and sometimes multiple 1's. And then they have to live with the consequences of their choice. (Often hilariously).

The lesson seems to be that if you're a healer and you have a Barbarian or other rager in the party, you need to be aware that he may need healing in a more immediate fashion than others do.

Absolutely true. In my experience the "you must have a cleric" myth grew out of the fact that Barbarians need combat healing in order to survive.

Is there another way to run the Rage mechanic?

There are many variants. Ferocity adds to Str and Dex, and let's you Rage as an Immediate Action. Feral Trance (Fist of the Forest) adds to your Dex and gives you a bite attack. Primal Scream (Wild Runner) adds to your Str and Dex and it gives you a bite attack. The PHBII variant gives you Str and damage reduction (but has a lousy activation mechanism). Whirling Frenzy gives you a bonus to Str, AC, and an extra attack.

Boosting and then lowering Con screws the Barbarian.

[Stephen_E]

Boosting and then lowering Con screws the Barbarian.

I've never found it a problem. If you go down then the party knows healing you is a priority before your rage runs out. Since they know how long your rage lasts it's no big deal. Also you carry labeled heal potions on you with the party knowing where they are.

It's like saying the low hps of a Wizard screws the wizard. Instead it just means the rest of the party protects the Wizard from damage where possible.

Stephen E

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I've never found it a problem. If you go down then the party knows healing you is a priority before your rage runs out. Since they know how long your rage lasts it's no big deal. Also you carry labeled heal potions on you with the party knowing where they are.

It's like saying the low hps of a Wizard screws the wizard. Instead it just means the rest of the party protects the Wizard from damage where possible.

Stephen E

Except while the Wizard can defend itself from harm rather easily, the Barb only has one defense-HP. Combine that with the fact that most rage-boosting abilities boost both Str and Con, and you have a formula for going from 30 HP to dead really fast.

[jcsw]

Technically, it doesn't screw the barbarian because you don't lose any net HP.

You gain HP at the start and lose it at the end, if you didn't treat it like temporary HP and instead thought of it like a buffer time for your party to heal you, there wouldn't be a problem. It's not as good as temporary HP but it's not actually something negative.

[Immutep]

Also, not wanting to sound totally cocky. But there's not alot out there that can stand up to a barbarian in a combat situation and actually cause that kind of damage (at least, not on the appropriate encounter list anyway) before just lying in a pile of severed body parts at his feet.

[Person_Man]

Also, not wanting to sound totally cocky. But there's not alot out there that can stand up to a barbarian in a combat situation and actually cause that kind of damage (at least, not on the appropriate encounter list anyway) before just lying in a pile of severed body parts at his feet.

Wait, what?

Barbarian is one of the weakest classes in the game. They get full BAB, d12 hit die, minor DR, and a minor Str/Con boost that can easily and more effectively be accomplished by 2nd level spells. A Fighter (another weak class) with Improved Toughness and any decent high damage feat combo is better.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, not wanting to sound totally cocky. But there's not alot out there that can stand up to a barbarian in a combat situation and actually cause that kind of damage (at least, not on the appropriate encounter list anyway) before just lying in a pile of severed body parts at his feet.

The only reason Barbarian features so prominently in as many builds as it does is from two things: 1. Barb levels are better than Fighter levels if you don't need the feats; 2. Pounce. Other than that, it's pretty trash.