Dread Comando- Making it worth it

[Human Paragon 3]

OK, Dread Commando. On paper, this PrC looks awesome. It's a full BaB, Full Sneak Attack (ok, sudden strike, but close enough) class with a good hit die and amazing skills (6/level with a good list). If that wasn't enough, you get to hide and move without penalty, and hide and RUN or CHARGE with just a -10. Not to mention your armor check penalties are all reduced by 4, making that suit of mithral full plate a reality for even the clumsiest of skill monkeys.

The problem? Pre-requisites. It requires Dodge.

And Mobility.

Probably the two most useless feats out there. Is there any way to make it worth it? Some other benefit that dodge and mobility can grant, such as a super-secret overpowered feat or PrC? Would just taking spring attack justify it? My gut feeling is no, since spring attack doesn't work that great with sudden strike, you know, the whole 1 attack/round thing cramps its style a bit. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[Epinephrine]

OK, Dread Commando. On paper, this PrC looks awesome. It's a full BaB, Full Sneak Attack (ok, sudden strike, but close enough) class with a good hit die and amazing skills (6/level with a good list). If that wasn't enough, you get to hide and move without penalty, and hide and RUN or CHARGE with just a -10. Not to mention your armor check penalties are all reduced by 4, making that suit of mithral full plate a reality for even the clumsiest of skill monkeys.

The problem? Pre-requisites. It requires Dodge.

And Mobility.

Probably the two most useless feats out there. Is there any way to make it worth it? Some other benefit that dodge and mobility can grant, such as a super-secret overpowered feat or PrC? Would just taking spring attack justify it? My gut feeling is no, since spring attack doesn't work that great with sudden strike, you know, the whole 1 attack/round thing cramps its style a bit. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Elusive Target can be great, especially with an Improved Trip build.

Elusive Target [Tactical] (CWar p110)
Requires: Base Attack Bonus +6, Dexterity 13, Dodge, Mobility

You may use the following 3 tactical maneuvers:
Negate Power Attack – If the opponent that you have chosen to use your Dodge against uses Power Attack on you, he/she still takes the penalty on the attack, but does not gain the bonus on the damage.

Diverting Defense – If you are flanked and have chosen one of the flankers as your Dodge opponent, that opponent’s first attack on you each round actually target’s the other flanker, who is considered Flat-Footed. Any additional attacks that round are treated normally.

Cause Overreach – If you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out of a threatened hex and your opponent misses, you receive an automatic Trip attempt against the foe. If the Trip attempt misses, your opponent does not get an attempt to trip you.

I don't find mobility that bad, either, if you are doing a lot of moving around in battle. Works well with the Cause Overreach, too, as you get an even better chance of getting a trip attack on the target, and if you succeed you get a shot on them for free on your way by.

The whole combination (Spring Attack feat chain, Improved Trip, Elusive Target) starts looking really nice on a spring-attacking Scout, since you can get additional full skirmish hits in on your way to and from your target (and you likely ave enough move to pull it off). Negating Power Attack can be awesome against some baddies, and the Diverting Defense is just funny to use when flanked. You have to move around a lot in combat anyway, so you're bound to be provoking AoO, and you get to make essentially free attacks every time an AoO misses.

Essentially though, unless you were already looking at a build that can benefit from some of those feats, you're unlikely to want to spend them that way.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Elusive Target ^^ is amazing. It really allows you to either dump AC at high levels and not fear PA, or focus on AC and pull some trippy shanagens.

Another thing for Dread Commando, is if you go with a Cha focused character, 2 levels or Marshall are pretty good. That gives your whole team a bonus of 5 plus your cha mod to init. Add in a Chained Nerve Skitter from your party wizard and you'll be looking at an init bonus of about +20 for your whole team. Thats pretty silly, but oh so amazing! Going first means landing key CC spells in the best position, getting to enemy spellcasters to disrupt them, getting Sudden Strike off, and a ton of other things.

[Glimbur]

Another option is to buy the Mobility enhancement on your armor from MiC instead of spending a feat on it. This does have some risks inherent in it though.

[FinalJustice]

Obligatory mention to the 1-level dip in Lion Cheese Barbarian to get Pounce, so you can move and unleash your full attack.

[Human Paragon 3]

OK, here's my Dread Comando/Sabateur/Gish build. The object behind this was to be able to destroy and disable anything that gets in my path, have a lot of skills, and be effective in combat. Magic enhances the destructive power, craftiness, and combat utility. I built the character out to ECL 13 (more combat and skill focussed) then to ECL 20 were magic becomes the primary focus but combat is still strong. At all levels he wields a great hammer to smash face and mechanisms.

Razing Strike helps against constructs who are normally imune to such shenanigans. Undead can just slip in grease and be power attacked/burned to death.

Spoiler

Show

Rogue 1/Battle Sorc 1/Human Paragon 3/Battle Sorc 2/Expert 1/Dread Comando 5/
Battle Sorc 1/Arcane Trickster 6

1 SA +1d6, Trapfinding, Dodge, Mobility
2 Spellcasting (light armor) CL1
3 Battle Caster (medium armor), Adaptive Learning (disable divice)
4 Power Attack CL2
5 Ability Boost CL3
6 Improved Sunder CL4
7 CL5
8 Razing Strike
9 Elusive Target, Sudden Strike 2d6, Init. Bonus
10 Armored Ease (2)
11 Sudden Strike 3d6
12 Staggering Strike, Armored Ease (4), Stealthy Movement
13 Sudden Strike 4d6

14 CL6
15 Practiced Spellcaster, Ranged Leg 1/day, CL7
16 Sneak Attack 5d6, CL8
17 Impromputu Sneak CL9
18 Extra Slot, Sneak Attack 6d6, CL10
19 Ranged Leg 2/day. CL11
20 Sneak Attack 7d6, CL12


ECL 13
BaB +11/+6/+1

Sabotage spells :

Grease, Dispel Ward, Instant Locksmith, Shatter

ECL 20
BaB +14/+9/+4

Sabotage spells :


1 Gease, Dispel Ward, Instant Locksmith, Burning Hands
2 Shatter, Spider Climb, Bull's Strength, Scorching Ray
3 Dispel Magic, Shrink Item, Explosive Runes or Fireball
4 Stoneskin, Stone Shape
5 Transmute Rock to Mud
6 Acid Fog

Fine tuning advice is appreciated, especially spell selection. Each spell was chosen for its ability to sabotage or destroy except for the occasional self buff or versatility spell.

[Medic]

As previously Pointed out:

Elusive Target is possibly one of the best tactical feats you can take.

Additionally you open up the spring attack chain, Bounding Assult and Rapid Blitz in you don't go for the pounce option.

[zaei]

You can also take one of the better Dodge replacements from other sources. One idea that I used in a build a while back was Midnight Dodge plus three level in Umbral Disciple, for some skill bonuses, a Sneak Attack Die, and Hide in Plain Sight.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd replace Dodge with Desert Wind Dodge, since you'll be doing a lot of moving around anyway.

[UserClone]

Pounce only works if you charge. If you charge, your movement ends right next to the opponent, negating your ability to keep moving via Spring Attack. I felt like this was important to mention.

[Human Paragon 3]

True, but I would personally never dip a level of barbarian for pounce. I think that's too cheesy and probably not an option intended by the designers. I think the intent was clearly to have it kick in at level 6, and should have been given at level 6. I don't want the thread to devolve into an ubercharger argument, though.

[Person_Man]

Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior is probably your best entry. They'll give you Compression and Hustle. Compression will let you use Confound the Bigfolk (Races of Stone) which makes your enemy Flat Footed (and requires that you be 2 sizes smaller then enemy). Hustle removes the need for Pounce. Take Elusive Target, Improved Trip, and Robilar's Gambit when you qualify.

Not a particularly strong build, but Skillful and strait forward.

[kjones]

I'd replace Dodge with Desert Wind Dodge, since you'll be doing a lot of moving around anyway.

Doesn't that require initiator levels, or maneuvers or something?

[Aneantir]

Doesn't that require initiator levels, or maneuvers or something?

It requires one Desert Wind maneuver. But, honestly, when dealing with melee characters, when are these boards not advising at least a couple of levels in Swordsage?

[Thurbane]

I've been considering a build for a Dwarven Fighter/Scout/Dread Commando. A guy who can wear full plate with no speed restrictions or armor check penalties. Not exactly uber, but one that interests me anyway.

[UserClone]

Why not a Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter?

[Grynning]

Why in Bahamut's name did you take the level in Expert? Flavor reasons? Another level of Rogue would almost certainly be better. Also, how are you getting a feat at level 8?

I've been considering a build for a Dwarven Fighter/Scout/Dread Commando. A guy who can wear full plate with no speed restrictions or armor check penalties. Not exactly uber, but one that interests me anyway.

Why not just be a Knight from PHBII? Not sneaky at all, but can move around at full speed in armor.

[UserClone]

Why bother with Knight when he's already a Dwarf? He'd do better to go Wildshape Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter for maxed Skirmish, plus he gets to go 30 feet in armor.

[Grynning]

Heh, I totally forgot that Dwarves ignore armor speed penalties. Been awhile since I even looked at 3.5 Dwarves.

[Human Paragon 3]

Why in Bahamut's name did you take the level in Expert? Flavor reasons? Another level of Rogue would almost certainly be better. Also, how are you getting a feat at level 8?

Expert is how I got the feat at level 8- PC expert. It's six skillpoints per level and grants bonus feats, which can be any feat. You also choose your class skills.

Which explains why I took it. I needed a bonus feet and I wanted a class with good skills for monkeying reasons, natch.

I was also considering an alternate build which loses Expert and the fifth level of Dread Commando for two more battle sorcerer levels, qualifying for Arcane Trickster earlier. It's giving up a point and a quarter of BAB, 4 skill points, some HP and a bonus feat for two more caster levels. Thoughts? Spell selection thoughts?

[Grynning]

Expert is how I got the feat at level 8- PC expert. It's six skillpoints per level and grants bonus feats, which can be any feat. You also choose your class skills.

Which explains why I took it. I needed a bonus feet and I wanted a class with good skills for monkeying reasons, natch.

Where is this mysterious "PC expert" variant? I've never heard of it before.

I still advocate another level of Rogue instead. If you need another feat, lose Imp. Sunder - I know you're going for a saboteur, but sundering busts the shiny loots, and the group hates that You don't really need it if you just want to sunder unattended items anyways (as you would when sabotaging things), just have an adamantine weapon handy...or explosives. Or a Shatter spell. Or whatever.

[Human Paragon 3]

A second rogue level would be pretty good- It comes with evasion and a couple more skillpoints. It's hard to overestimate the value of a feat, though. A level of feat rogue would be almost as good, but in that case I'd have to take a fighter feat at level 8, and what I really want is Razing Strike so I can get with the golem smashing. I made an edit to my above post where I describe an alternate build though, which may prove stronger.

Oh, and PC Expert.

[Grynning]

Oh, and PC Expert.

Oh, that Expert. I always forget the generic classes, since the alternate rules pretty specifically advocate against letting folk mix them with regular classes. In this case it's not that bad and far from abusive, though, so if the DM allows it, w/e.

As for your build, see my above comments on Imp. Sunder, I still think it's an unnecessary feat. Also, I'm fairly certain there's a spell in the Spell Compendium that eliminates the need for the Razing Strike feat. Gravestrike is the one for undead, and I think the construct one is called Golemstrike. They're first level spells too, IIRC.

P.S. - That kinda sums up what I don't like about 3.5 in one go: "I'm fairly certain there's a spell in [INSERT BOOK HERE] that eliminates the need for [INSERT CLASS FEATURE, FEAT, OR SKILL HERE]."

[Human Paragon 3]

Oh, that Expert. I always forget the generic classes, since the alternate rules pretty specifically advocate against letting folk mix them with regular classes. In this case it's not that bad and far from abusive, though, so if the DM allows it, w/e.

As for your build, see my above comments on Imp. Sunder, I still think it's an unnecessary feat. Also, I'm fairly certain there's a spell in the Spell Compendium that eliminates the need for the Razing Strike feat. Gravestrike is the one for undead, and I think the construct one is called Golemstrike. They're first level spells too, IIRC.

P.S. - That kinda sums up what I don't like about 3.5 in one go: "I'm fairly certain there's a spell in [INSERT BOOK HERE] that eliminates the need for [INSERT CLASS FEATURE, FEAT, OR SKILL HERE]."

Good points. I feel like imp. sunder is pretty important though. First, it's another combat option. Second, when disable divice fails, it's good to have a backup option. Third, this class doesn't get much spellpower and needs to apply its limited resources as percision tools. It can't afford to simply spam shatters-this goes to the Golem Strike spell as well. The build just doesn't have many spells built in. It's a spontaneous caster with a gimped spells known progression.

A way around this would be with scrolls and wands, but you can't count on being given access to those, I find. I like my builds to be as self-sufficient as possible.

Although, losing the expert level and level 5 of Commando would give me two extra caster levels and increase my spellpower, which would go a long way. I am leaning more and more toward this option.

Last thought on golem strike/razing strike: Instead of just letting you sneak attack constructs, razing strike adds extra dice to your SA equal to the spell sacrificed, making it stronger, and you don't need to flank it, catch it flat footed etc. It just gives you the bonus damage dice.

[Thurbane]

Where is this mysterious "PC expert" variant?