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2012-10-22, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Hm. Alright, I suppose I can see that. But without specifying that, you're just saying "sex should not exist", which is... kinda nonsensical considering the whole sexual reproduction and biology thing. Because sex does exist - things like hormone abnormalities, birth defects and transexuality don't negate that, any more than some kids being born with 11 fingers negates the "humans have 10 fingers" thing; it just means the whole process is a lot more complex and fallible than the simple statement "humans are male and female" implies.
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2012-10-22, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Trans woman can have a whole array of bodies. I haven't started transitioning at all so from a pure medical point of view my body isn't very much distinguishable from a cis guy. But, a trans woman who has completed her transition (let's assume it's someone who wanted SRS), has breasts, a vagina and all that, female hormone levels and all that would still fall under male legally if she hadn't finished doing her legal gender change paperwork. The point is, where do you draw the line? Is a pre-/non-op trans woman on HRT still male bodied? Despite her now having female hormone levels which influences medication; different fat distribution and all that, having breasts no needing regular check ups for breast cancer, etc...
No, but it does negate "all humans have 10 fingers" statement. It doesn't negate "humans commonly have 10 fingers" which is what I think you mean.
I guess my point is that gender fulfills everything on a social level and at a medical level the simplified assigned at birth sex system is flawed.Last edited by Astrella; 2012-10-22 at 07:36 AM.
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2012-10-22, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Well, your doctor should be at least passingly familiar with your medical records anyway, and should see "born male-bodied", "HRT for X years", "SRS in XXXX", or whatever. After SRS and HRT for years, for most practical purposes that would be a female body, but for medical purposes, it would be either for different things. It's important to be completely clear with your doctor about any conditions. You could say, "born male-bodied, went through SRS" as a fairly brief explanation, I guess. All I'm saying is, your medical history is important to a doctor, not just what presents itself now.
Jude P.
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2012-10-22, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-10-22, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
If a child is born with 11 fingers, something has gone wrong in its development. It doesn't make it less of a human, it isn't necessarily even a bad thing, and it's certainly something that needs to be acknowledged and understood because it's a natural part of the diversity of life and is important to our understanding of genetics, gene expression, environmental factors in development, and so on. It also doesn't change the fact that one of the defining features of Homo sapiens is the possession of 5 fingers (or 4 and a thumb, if you prefer) on each hand. The fact that human development is flawed and sometimes does odd things and is always full of variation doesn't change the fact that humans, as a species, have two sexes, and sex is a real thing that is relevant to various areas.
I don't disagree with you on the social level (in fact, I'd take it even further - you know my opinions on gender), but this dismissal of an entire scientific concept because of its cultural misuse just doesn't make sense.The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2012-10-22, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
No, because they have testes where their ovaries should be - thus the lack of periods. Actually, the testes are generally removed, due to a ridiculously high co-morbidity rate with germ cell tumours.
...looking up partial AIS, apparently 25% of people with PAIS are dissatisfied with their assigned gender, whether they get assigned male or female, and yet current guidelines still state that it's not recommended to wait to decide gender assignment until the child can decide for themselves. That seems stupid to me.Quotebox
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2012-10-22, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Now that is a situation where I can definitely get on board the "leave off the sex decision" train. I do think it's both important and useful for a sex to be determined at birth, and that it makes sense for the external appearance to be the basis for that determination until something arises to change that (and if something does arise, I think that shouldn't be any more difficult to change nor any bigger a deal than is absolutely necessary to ensure the mental wellbeing of the individual), but in the case of intersexed kids I hate that it's decided for them before they even get a say. Australia was oh-so-close to having an official "neither" option for sex, and I think it would be so useful in cases such as that.
Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-10-22 at 07:53 AM.
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2012-10-22, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Sex is a human invention, not an inherent thing. It's a human label. Just like colours actually. Red isn't a thing that exists outside the human mind; the spectrum range does, just like the various physical features exist for people, but red itself is a human concept.
For example, what if people in the past had decided on a trinary sex system? male / female / neuter for people who are infertile? (Sex classification was around way before we even knew chromosomes existed.)
Edit; at the very least enforcing that binary is ridiculously harmful. Even around here people who for example don't desire SRS are denied treatment or put at the end of the waiting list; because if you don't want to be perfectly cis-looking obviously you're not really trans.
Edit2: I see where you are coming from; and I agree that it isn't inherently harmful but the whole attitudes surrounding it aren't neutral right now.
Edit3: Sorry if I'm coming over as overly argumentative. I think I'm channeling a lot of my frustration about the unfairness of the system here (and in other places) into this conversation. :/Last edited by Astrella; 2012-10-22 at 08:01 AM.
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2012-10-22, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
It is clear that our views on biology are so fundamentally incompatible that we have no basis for a discussion, as we can do nothing at this point than say "I disagree completely". And I really can't understand how you can say that, given the whole, again, "sexual reproduction that requires male and female features which is the fundamental driving force of all non-asexually reproducing organisms on the planet" thing.
I agree with you there.
edit: a pondering of a compromise between our basic positions. The sex binary is a natural categorisation of male and female, a fundamental feature and driving force of the sexual reproduction and all evolution stemming from that. Where the exact lines are between them, when one starts and the other stops, especially in humans, is a human construct - similar to hetero/homosexual (natural, intrinsic individual preferences but with blurred edges) and species categories (natural, usually well- and practically-defined but with extremely blurry edges at places and some downright weird stuff going on).Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-10-22 at 08:06 AM.
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2012-10-22, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
While the idea of every single person being considered on their own merits and criteria is an admirable goal, the fact that there are 7 billion people on Earth makes this physically impossible.
Generalisations are occasionally a bad thing if they miss out an important section but generalisation is essential if we are to make any sense of the world and its especially true with children. How can you explain the concept of reproduction to a child while avoiding terms like male and female?
I do get what you're driving at - generalisations lead to expectations and expectations lead to prejudice; but humanity as whole cannot consider 7 billion variations of itself without at least *some* blanket statements.
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2012-10-22, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Yes, that is true
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
*Hugs Musashi, Lixie, Golly and anyone who wants them* :<
@ Musashi: I think you're too hard on yourself... There's nothing wrong with complaining about that sort of thing.
Oh right, it was usually crossing the water (being burned by it tends to be used as a handwave, though that makes other problems (for one, how do the more attractive/charismatic versions manage to look like they can bathe regularly? )). ^_^'
Morality tale, I imagine. Working in explanations for what the victim did "wrong" helped to warn people from repeating certain behaviors and therefore (hopefully) make them less likely to catch disease (from other humans at least) in the future.
Bad Asta. ;P
... *Steals the chocolates and wine*
*Nod* He'd know about OotS because he created it, and he's the one continuing to create it. His being the one who'd know these things, paradoxically-sounding enough, is unrelated to whether he actually does or not for the same reason that not all doctors can perform open-heart surgery and not all politicians are aware of every large-scale social issue going on.
At least, that is my understanding of the terminology. It has a chart! :3
*Hugs!* At least it's turning out okay.
I would try to just bring it up and correct anyone who said it wrong whenever I could (I mean, it works for my gender with my cousins), but that can be kind of... Stressful, especially if the people you're correcting keep doing it and/or don't like being corrected. *Hugs*
I hate when that happens. *More hugs!* :<
*Hugs* It's okay, we're a confusing group of groups~
I guess it has a Hermes mode?
^
*Hugs!*
I call 'goal' on her genes and whatnot and 'defect' on the way she was raised. Or just her dad and TiM. Whichever.
I like that one~
On my best gauge of it, I'd be:
Spoiler- Strong bisexual, but a bit 'blurry' because I somewhat prefer more 'feminine' qualities and 'male' nibblies most of the time.
- Vanilla on Pain Exchange, maybe leaning a bit masochist for liking it rough sometimes.
(I used to be really strongly masochistic leaning sadomasochist, but... Eh, I don't care for it anymore. *Shrug*)
- Definitely female, maybe leaning just a bit androgynous (I don't like having male anatomy, but... Well, I like using it if that makes any sense ).
- Pretty strongly egalitarian, with a slight lean to switch (a bit of dominance somewhere or another is neat ).
- Maybe about... 'Family' preference, leaning 'swinger'? I guess you could describe me as liking to have a lot of friends, and sometimes being sexual and/or romantic with a couple of them. Also I have a different concept of "cheating" than most people and like being a girlfriend for some reason.
Hmm... I like the idea, but it is a *bit* hard to keep up with - could you maybe post a 'clean' version? (Also, switching the categories list to the top and center descriptions to the bottom might help a bit.)
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In news; after much hanging out around a bonfire and some drinking with my cousins the night before last, we determined that we're *probably* going to join a LARPing community somewhat soon. If/when we do, my character will be a noble-turned assassin that wears a mask and doesn't speak - so I don't get called out for calling myself Madame Pistonfall. I'll be presenting as female in public, outside of my parents' radar.
~Bianca
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2012-10-22, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
(in case Astrella is typing a response: please see my edit ^)
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2012-10-22, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
The classification is; not the physical reality. And my point is that the classification is flexible and human made. Where you draw the line is a human decision. Just like using a number system with a different base doesn't change anything about the underlying math, but you are using a different number system. I'm not denying the reality, but I'm very much aware that how we describe reality is coloured by our human biases.
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2012-10-22, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
My edit, above, for ease:I think species is actually a pretty good analogy (at least in spirit, if not in specifics). Comparing distinct species is easy - a cat isn't a dog, a walrus clearly isn't a budgerigar. There is clearly a natural, intrinsic and fundamental distinction. But when you start looking at the details, at the nitty-gritty and the fine details and the exceptions and the weird goings-on and the genetic throwbacks, the precise lines between these obvious and natural distinctions get blurry. Like ring-species: species A is clearly a different species to species Z, but species L-N? Not so easy to distinguish. But still not negating the fact of species A and species Z.
No idea if I'm making any sense at all :BLast edited by Serpentine; 2012-10-22 at 08:21 AM.
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2012-10-22, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Yes, I agree with that.
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2012-10-22, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Brace yourselves. I think the Internet is about to implode.
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2012-10-22, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- Below sea level
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
From a biological point of view I agree with Serp. the fact that we humans have a different way of thinking which sets us apart from the other animals (secondary thinking patterns) gives us a whole lot of options, not all neccessarily good. Biologically man has 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 lungs, 1 heart, 2 kidneys, 1 intestinal system, 10 fingers and either XX chromosomes, or XY chromosomes which we call female and male respectively.
Now starts the trouble. somehow we (humans) have developed a brain. We don't understand it, but we do know it works (sort of). This brain has a few weird quirks. Sometimes someone's mental gender (at least, that's how I understand it) does not match it's biological gender. Mentally, people can have any alphbet gender they want. however, biologically you're either one or the other (the big question here is do you have a y chromosome). At the moment we people as a whole (Warning, this is a generalization!) use occams razor to determine gender: if it looks, smells and sounds like a man, odds are it's a man. if not odds are it's a woman. In the rare case people really don't know, it's an enigma (that would make a great name for a 'third' or neutral gender). Now, for medical information and drivers license etc. it's a good question what gender would prevail: is it the biological gender? Is it the perceived gender, it is the self assigned gender? And what categories would be allowed? Add to that the fact that the whole gender identity problem has become a problem over the last few decades, indicates that yes, change is needed, but that things need to be thought out first. That information has to be compiled so the people ruling countries etc. will be able to make a decent ruling. (and this is without even considering religious view on the subject).Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-10-22, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I would like to clarify, lest the conversation keep going past where it needs to and gets distorted, that I haven't actually been discussing transexuality in my argument about sex except as one of the anomalies that is a product of and helps to demonstrate the imperfection and complexity of human physical development. I have been making absolutely no comment on transexuality, except the occasional agreement with some specific situation mentioned by Astrella.
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2012-10-22, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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- In the Final Frontier
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Ambiguous response generator: Yes.
But really. Yeah, the whole thing needs to be reexamined.
I mean, I biologically am male. I have at various times and for various reasons, wished for/worked toward being/presented myself as a different gender.
Except for my parts, I was for a while, a girl. (Silly Y chromosome)
But that leaves a big gaping flaw in the two genders thing.
Where am I? Man? Woman? Enigma?
I really do like that last one. Good call on that socrotov.
Co-Founder of LUTAS.
For all you lesser superheroes out there.
Custom STO avatar by Durkoala.
A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.
Spoiler: Online stuffsLentrax has a Deviantart now, check it out!
Streaming Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11CST on Twitch.
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2012-10-22, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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- In the Final Frontier
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Also, it occurs to me that I would like a drivers license that says, Gender: Varies.
Or As Presented.
It's too long, but how about:What do you think I am?Last edited by Lentrax; 2012-10-22 at 11:51 AM.
Co-Founder of LUTAS.
For all you lesser superheroes out there.
Custom STO avatar by Durkoala.
A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.
Spoiler: Online stuffsLentrax has a Deviantart now, check it out!
Streaming Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11CST on Twitch.
Follow me on Twitter!
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2012-10-22, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
That one's got a bit of a risk for being taken as rather asinine. Also, I doubt there's that many people who are OK with having their gender identity decided upon by public consensus who would also take a third option on official paperwork.
Indeed, I think that having one's identity decided by others is part of the problem for some people...
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2012-10-22, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Austin TX
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
gunnar11: Not being into anime, I've never seen that style of chart before. Honestly, that looks confusing to me. I think it's more intuitive to place dots on existing shapes than it is to try to represent what you want to as a shape. The purpose of a chart like mine would be essentially to provide a better "at a glance" sexuality summary for people to provide when they want others to more quickly get a basic sense of their sexuality.
Currently, there are sites that attempt this with words you select on your profile, but with limitations that create confusion. Like, on one site, you cannot select that you're a Dominant Masochist (as both words are selectable in the same slot, rather than separately). I have friends who are Dominant Masochists. I've also seen plenty of times that misunderstandings arose because people used a term, meant it "only a little", had no way to specify that, and people assumed they meant "all the way".
Natural gender is concrete enough to keep that as a drop down with words, so there's no reason to create a triangle for it. A person's natural gender isn't going to be 10% male & 90% female... And part of the point of these triangles is that there's a gradient that's lost in most of the ways we communicate sexuality.
This gives good precision without taking a lot of time, either for the user or those that they provide the chart to. 5 quick clicks to place circles... And easy to read at-a-glance.Avatar by me. It's Incendius Darkscale, a Good Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept, Prince of Hell, worshiper of the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut), specializing in Fire and Lightning, wielding a staff in each hand.
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2012-10-22, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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- In the Final Frontier
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
True. It was just a random thought that popped into my more than slightly fatigued head.
Uggh. I hate working all night.Last edited by Lentrax; 2012-10-22 at 11:21 AM.
Co-Founder of LUTAS.
For all you lesser superheroes out there.
Custom STO avatar by Durkoala.
A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.
Spoiler: Online stuffsLentrax has a Deviantart now, check it out!
Streaming Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11CST on Twitch.
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2012-10-22, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2012-10-22, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Co-Founder of LUTAS.
For all you lesser superheroes out there.
Custom STO avatar by Durkoala.
A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.
Spoiler: Online stuffsLentrax has a Deviantart now, check it out!
Streaming Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11CST on Twitch.
Follow me on Twitter!
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2012-10-22, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Yeah, I totally get how you came up with the idea for your charts, and how the scale works. It's a good way (not questioning this) to look at it in a glance and understand everything.
I wanted to make a more elaborated chart, though. One that grades every aspect from 1 to 5, to get a clearer view.
It would also allow the possibility to compare the chart to other people and see in a glance how they differ: One with more red is usually more into pain play. One with more orange clearly defines himself/herself/otherself as different in his/her/others view of themselves.
One with more purple will like boys and girls more alike.
The same on the other side of the chart. One with less purple will be more asexual, one with less green defines oneself less with dominance/submissisivity. Get it?
My chart isn't that much about quick glances, but more profound, and I would actually like it if I saw people use it, to see what the results are like.
Two more prototypes, hopefully easier to read.
Basic:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2vcasgl.jpg
Filled in,Colors:
http://i49.tinypic.com/4kjqc2.jpg
Or filled in, Grey:
http://i50.tinypic.com/30birfc.jpg
I hope one of them match your fancies!
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2012-10-22, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Kind of cumbersome in terms of design, though, gunnar. Usually those things try to have less going on at one time when I've seen them.
More though, I'd have to question the profundity of what it attempts to measure.
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2012-10-22, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
How many hairs on the head can a man have and still be called bald?
Thajocoth, androgynous. It's a minor point but it stabs my soul with the dark icicle of Trebhos-en-Reĝos when I see a mis-spelling like that.
Rawhide - everywhere it's possible, nature goes to great lengths to avoid self-fertilization so it's probably safe to say it's not a good idea from a genetics standpoint.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-10-22, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Avatar by me. It's Incendius Darkscale, a Good Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept, Prince of Hell, worshiper of the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut), specializing in Fire and Lightning, wielding a staff in each hand.
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2012-10-22, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
If you seriously want to design this kind of graphic representation, I recommend this guy.
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo