7d6 damage/level? No save??

[Psyren]

Unless you put it onto something that is capable of holding it, but can be brought down fairly easy. Technically it's still supporting the weight.

Although I still don't see this working. Just that, you probably can build the right platform, able to hold the blocks, and still be used as an effective trap.

As long as some secondary/external action is needed to bring it down I'm okay with that. But if it collapses on its own, it was never "capable of supporting it" to begin with.

So if you summon/create the object on a balcony and then use lightning bolt or Mountain Hammer to shatter the balcony that is fine. If the balcony collapses simply due to the weight of the object - not fine.

[Hamste]

As long as some secondary/external action is needed to bring it down I'm okay with that. But if it collapses on its own, it was never "capable of supporting it" to begin with.

So if you summon/create the object on a balcony and then use lightning bolt or Mountain Hammer to shatter the balcony that is fine. If the balcony collapses simply due to the weight of the object - not fine.

So what happens if you summon a celestial monkey and it is caught off guard so that it falls down? It could not support itself so does that mean the spell fails? It collapsed on its self.

[Psyren]

So what happens if you summon a celestial monkey and it is caught off guard so that it falls down? It could not support itself so does that mean the spell fails? It collapsed on its self.

1) The rules say that the surface has to support the thing you're conjuring, not the thing itself.

2) Where are the rules for "catching something off guard so that it falls down?"

[Hamste]

1) The rules say that the surface has to support the thing you're conjuring, not the thing itself.

2) Where are the rules for "catching something off guard so that it falls down?"

As I have been saying this is about summoning something that can not support itself...it has nothing to do with the surface (you were the one who said that if it collapses then the ground was not stable enough for it). There are no specific rules for it but what if the monkey collapses itself perhaps from grease or it being icy or even just lazy.

[Psyren]

As I have been saying this is about summoning something that can not support itself...it has nothing to do with the surface (you were the one who said that if it collapses then the ground was not stable enough for it). There are no specific rules for it but what if the monkey collapses itself perhaps from grease or it being icy or even just lazy.

The OP was talking about summoning a solid osmium block from what I can see.

Summoning a creature on ice would not cause it to fall immediately - it would only have to make a Balance check if it moves. So it comes into existence properly supported, with the falling etc. only happening later.

[Aldizog]

Does the description of the Conjuration school kill those stupid orbs?
They are instantaneous creation, therefore non-magical once created, and yet are created in mid-air. Which means the spell fails.

[Karnith]

Does the description of the Conjuration school kill those stupid orbs?
They are instantaneous creation, therefore non-magical once created, and yet are created in mid-air.

No, they seem to be created in your palm. Then they shoot out at an enemy. Also, whether that rule applies would depend on whether the orbs created are objects in the D&D sense.

Plus, y'know, specific trumps general and all that.

[Psyren]

Does the description of the Conjuration school kill those stupid orbs?
They are instantaneous creation, therefore non-magical once created, and yet are created in mid-air. Which means the spell fails.

As Karnith correctly stated they form in your palm and only then go to "mid-air."

[ahenobarbi]

Ouch I see I was late:

Sure the surface can support it...the item just can't support itself. The ground underneath it isn't collapsing or shifting and therefore it is stable enough to support the object.

Basically that's my suggestion. Use surface that totally can support the object, just make the object unable to support itself.

[Psyren]

Creating something that has the necessary built-in flaw in just the right place that it will fall in exactly the way you want would require one heck of a Craft (and possibly architecture/engineering) check to pull off.

[ahenobarbi]

Creating something that has the necessary built-in flaw in just the right place that it will fall in exactly the way you want would require one heck of a Craft (and possibly architecture/engineering) check to pull off.

Creating big cube "supported" by a hair-thin "pillar" is that difficult? Seeing as all skills you named are INT-based shouldn't be a problem

[Deophaun]

Creating something that has the necessary built-in flaw in just the right place that it will fall in exactly the way you want would require one heck of a Craft (and possibly architecture/engineering) check to pull off.

What's the craft check for thin gauge wire? That's all you would really need.

[Segev]

Creating something that has the necessary built-in flaw in just the right place that it will fall in exactly the way you want would require one heck of a Craft (and possibly architecture/engineering) check to pull off.

Not...necessarily. "I create a block over his head, held up by four legs that are solid enough at the bottom, but which narrow to hair-fine thickness at the height of his head." At best, that's K:Architecture and Engineering or Craft:rickety objects DC 5.

[John Longarrow]

Osmium would be just fine, just have it next to your target instead of on top. Just make sure it is currently in a plasma state though.

[Lightlawbliss]

Osmium would be just fine, just have it next to your target instead of on top. Just make sure it is currently in a plasma state though.

you want to commit suicide?

[Macros]

That is beginning to look like a lot of efforts for something that will do 7d6 damage on a failed DC 15 reflex save.

[Chronos]

A thing that's a solid block of osmium with a hair-thin leg can't be supported by the ground. It could, however, be supported in an appropriately-shaped cradle. So if you happen to have such a cradle available, you can summon your deathtrap into it... But then, by definition, it's supported, and doesn't fall.

You can create something that's just barely supported, but then you'd need to take a separate action to knock it down. And getting exactly the amount of "just barely" you want might require a skill check or two.

[John Longarrow]

A thing that's a solid block of osmium with a hair-thin leg can't be supported by the ground. It could, however, be supported in an appropriately-shaped cradle. So if you happen to have such a cradle available, you can summon your deathtrap into it... But then, by definition, it's supported, and doesn't fall.

You can create something that's just barely supported, but then you'd need to take a separate action to knock it down. And getting exactly the amount of "just barely" you want might require a skill check or two.

Sounds like two castings.
1) Create ice cradle over the bad guys on turn 1. Rest of party does the wall thing to keep targets under cradle.
2) Create HOT Metal on cradle. Cradle holds, but starts melting immediatly.

Having seen how quickly hot metal can go through ice, the cradle would hold, but only for a few seconds.

[Psyren]

Creating big cube "supported" by a hair-thin "pillar" is that difficult? Seeing as all skills you named are INT-based shouldn't be a problem

Is it? Since such an object doesn't actually exist the DM would set the DC, and ditto for the engineering check.

That is beginning to look like a lot of efforts for something that will do 7d6 damage on a failed DC 15 reflex save.

Tell me about it

Sounds like two castings.
1) Create ice cradle over the bad guys on turn 1. Rest of party does the wall thing to keep targets under cradle.
2) Create HOT Metal on cradle. Cradle holds, but starts melting immediatly.

Having seen how quickly hot metal can go through ice, the cradle would hold, but only for a few seconds.

Can you control the temperature of things you create though? This sounds like a "the rules don't say I can't!" moment.

[John Longarrow]

Psyren,
If you can't have at least a limited amount of control over temprature you can't get both ice and water. IIRC, there is a WOTC adventure with ice being used by a creation spell (other than wall of ice) to make part of the adventure while the surrounding area is water.

[Psyren]

Ice is naturally cold though. So it seems to me that you can summon something with the normal temperature for its given state, but not summon "hot metal/cold metal."

[ahenobarbi]

That is beginning to look like a lot of efforts for something that will do 7d6 damage on a failed DC 15 reflex save.

7d6/CL

Is it? Since such an object doesn't actually exist the DM would set the DC, and ditto for the engineering check.

Technically you're correct so... ok. But I wouldn't expect any DM to set high DC for one-legged cube.

[Segev]

A thing that's a solid block of osmium with a hair-thin leg can't be supported by the ground.

But it can be and is. "Unfortunately," it can't support ITSELF. But the ground supports it just fine. That it breaks and assumes a new shape under its own weight is its own fault.



Though honestly, this seems like a lot of work when you can get similar effects from spells designed to do this kind of damage. Besides, you're a wizard: all about the prep. Prepare this ahead of time so you can unleash it at leisure. I believe Shrink Item is a popular method.

[John Longarrow]

Psyren
Then summon hydrogen in its natural state. Most hydrogen in the universe is either running around 3 Kelvin or a couple hundred thousand Kelvin. Either way you should either freeze the room solid or reduce the target to a gas.

Unfortunatly D&D and reality have never been on good speaking terms, so I don't think either would work well in game.

In reality I'm taking this tread as very light hearted. As a 7th level spell, why not just take limited WISH? This avoids a lot of the issues.

[Psyren]

Psyren
Then summon hydrogen in its natural state. Most hydrogen in the universe is either running around 3 Kelvin or a couple hundred thousand Kelvin. Either way you should either freeze the room solid or reduce the target to a gas.

Hydrogen is neither mineral, vegetable nor metal so it's out. And at least for the latter, there's no surface capable of supporting a star anyway.

You also run into the thorny issue of whether gases and liquids count as "objects," what sort of craft check would be required to create liquid hydrogen etc.

In reality I'm taking this tread as very light hearted.

I am too. Some people have fun coming up with absurdities like this, and other people have fun poking holes in the creations of the first group. Both are pretty light-hearted approaches, imo.

[Segev]

Hydrogen is neither mineral, vegetable nor metal so it's out.

*cough* Technically, it's a mineral. Everything is mineral if it's not animal or vegetable. Metals are minerals.

You also run into the thorny issue of whether gases and liquids count as "objects," what sort of craft check would be required to create liquid hydrogen etc.

Indeed; can you create liquids with the spell at all?

[The Glyphstone]

Yeesh. Now I feel dumb for posting anything. My bad

Not your fault, you didn't realize what a can of worms you were re-opening.

[Psyren]

*cough* Technically, it's a mineral. Everything is mineral if it's not animal or vegetable. Metals are minerals.

Metals are, but I would say nonmetal gases and liquids (at the very least, elements that naturally occur in those forms) are not.

And if the definition is indeed up in the air, we've run into yet another DM call.

[Deophaun]

Hydrogen is neither mineral, vegetable nor metal so it's out.

Hydrogen can indeed be a metal.

Grayed to protect cat-girls. Not for campaign consumption.

[John Longarrow]

Psyren,

then get Metallic hydrogen! This has the advantage of only occuring under great pressure, so it should immediatly explode upon being brought into a low pressure atmosphere!

NOTE: Trying to match reality with what D&D tries to supply gives you some totally abusable concepts. I'll admit, I can't begin to figure out how much damage 1400lbs of metalic Hydrogen would do when it expands, but I'm betting it would be more than 7d6/lvl. Plus then it would react with the oxygen in the atmosphere.