The Characters Can Take Too Much Punishment

[The Giant]

If I showed Roy getting stabbed through the chest once and dying, I would be facing an even longer thread of people complaining that I wasn't giving Roy the proper durability that was appropriate to a high-level fighter and that it therefore broke their suspension of disbelief because they feel like I'm not following the D&D rules closely enough and there's no rhyme or reason to anything that happens and they can't enjoy the comic anymore.

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea. Everyone just wants me to cater to the things that bug them, personally, and ignore the people with the exact opposite set of pet peeves. My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

[zimmerwald1915]

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea.

Who claimed this scene was unbelievable?

[Avi235&258]

Nale did, of course.

[dancrilis]

Who claimed this scene was unbelievable?

We first saw Durkon is so lawful he leaves Roy in the prioson of a Lawful Evil place but he is not Lawful enough to refrain from cheating with ugly-tasting tea(?). ;)

No, he's being Lawful. It's just not RIGHT for a Dwarven Cleric to be at a religious discussion drinking something ... non-alcoholic.

These two did.

[Torrasque]

Well done dancrilis :D

[Porthos]

My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

*checks latest comic*

You don't say.

Well played, Giant. Well played.

======

ETA to not Double Post:

Anyway, the reason why I dropped by this thread today is to wonder just how much punishment the characters can take (and dish out) before it suspends disbelief.

I fear we might find out soon.

[JBiddles]

We didn't see that scene, so we cannot know how she dodged it. Saying "dodge something dozens of feet wide that hits her squarely in the face" doesn't apply to this case (or either one I could think of).

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.

He's still limited to the laws and restrictions of his supernatural/divine power, he can't "ask for things nicely and get them".

Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.

If we assume a nimble, fast and deadly-precise halfling I don't see it all that unnatural for him to have killed that few dozen inexperienced hobgoblins he defeated (much less than 600 anyway). If you want a feasible example about how that could have happened just look at Kill Bill's - The Bride vs. 88 thugs

Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".

[Reddish Mage]

*checks latest comic*

You don't say.

Well played, Giant. Well played.

Me hopes some of that tea complaining was tongue and cheek :small tongue: I question those that have Suspension of Disbelief complaints in a 4th-wall breaking parody of D&D.

Many people have very specific ideas of what game concepts in D&D are meant to represent. Lodoss War, for example, depicts the characters as just getting nicks to represent hit point damage. However, D&D has never meant to be that clear about those things. Other sources choose to depict high level characters as simply an extraordinarily hard bunch. Now if Roy was to suddenly pull out a Major Image spell he just happened to pick up from his father(despite showing no wizard levels to date)…that's where you would have reason to complain. Despite it being prima facie a relatively reasonable thing to expect a child of a wizard to pick up a spell or two, its not the sort of thing that happens in D&D.

[Emanick]

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.




Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.




Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".

With enough force behind it, there's no reason why a magically strengthened bit of metal shouldn't be able to cut through several inches of flesh and bone alike in one swing. I think this is more a case of virtually nobody in real life actually being this strong or having such powerful weapons, not a case of people doing things that literally violate the laws of physics.

I do agree with you on the Evasion, but then again, that's more of a running joke than anything else. A good example of the sort of "rules joke" that will never get old as long as Rich plays it right.

[Spoomeister]

My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

So, as they say in Mystery Science Theater 3000, "You should say to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax'"?

How are we going to get to 30-page threads after each installment, looking for consistent tracking of levels, hit points and estimated spellcaster abilities across 900+ comics, if we take THAT attitude? I mean really.

[Nimin]

The joke that Evasion lets you do ridiculous things has been made before; for instance, Belkar reacts to Skullsy's Fireball as though hit, then realises that he got Evasion recently and therefore took no damage.

Because that was a joke, making it an exception, not the rule.

Sure. And Roy is limited to the restrictions of his own supernatural power: Durkon can hugely increase his size - a far more egregious violation of physics than the flying Empress of Blood - but not to the size of, say, a mountain; Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.

Roy has no supernatural powers.
Nothing in the D&D rulebook states that warriors achieve that through simple leveling and if you wish to insist on repeating this you'd better start quoting facts or citing proofs.

Belkar, a halfling, takes down hundreds (even very conservatively, that's a lot more than a "few dozen" hobgoblins) of human-size and -strength creatures with two blunt bits of metal ("I think he blunts his daggers, just so that they hurt more..."). If you look closely at the art, in some cases, he actually slices directly through the hobgoblins' body parts - in the second panel of #439, for instance, he cuts straight through a hobgoblin's leg in one small swing. This is blatantly impossible - unless you happen to be a high-level DnD character, in which case, in Vaarsuvius' words, "the laws of [physics are] loose guidelines at best".

I don't remember ever seeing him atop hundreds of corpses. How did you get that number?

[King of Nowhere]

In other words, someone's delicate suspension of disbelief is going to be broken even if I post a comic of everyone sitting calmly and drinking weak tea.

That reminds me of the "it don't matter what miko does, there will always be people thinking she should fall for that. I could draw a strip of miko standing perfectly still for 12 panels, and someone would say she should fall for her inaction".

Damn nerd gamers. we are a terribly nitpicky bunch to satisfy.

[Porthos]

I don't remember ever seeing him atop hundreds of corpses. How did you get that number?

It's only one of THE most Iconic shots of Belkar ever.

[Nimin]

It's only one of THE most Iconic shots of Belkar ever.

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

[Porthos]

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

Who can really tell? Besides, at that point does it really matter if it is 'only' one hundred* or hundreds?

* gauging conservatively, there has to be at least 100 there if it is a pyramid of corpses.

Besides, look at it this way. Not a few strips earlier, enough corpses were made to make a ramp for an undead monstroisty on a skeletal horse to ride up.

Sooner or later, I think it's time to re-adjust standards, go with the flow, and only complain at the truly illogical things.

[The Giant]

Roy has no supernatural powers.
Nothing in the D&D rulebook states that warriors achieve that through simple leveling and if you wish to insist on repeating this you'd better start quoting facts or citing proofs.

Roy does not have magical powers. Roy only doesn't have supernatural powers because for the world he lives in, his level of durability is considered entirely natural. If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Nonmagical high-level D&D characters can do the backstroke in lava, hit the moon with an arrow, stand right in front of you without being seen, spontaneously cut off people's heads with their bare hands, and live forever. If you don't like it, your argument is with high-level D&D, not me.

[Porthos]

If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Oooh, new StickTale?

*remembers the lawyers*

OK, maybe not. Still, I'd love to see Roy in Captain America get up. It just seems... so right.

[The Troubadour]

Also, Achilles was invulnerable to all damage except at his heel. He was dipped into the river Styx by his mother when he was a babe, making him invulnerable. Except that his mother held him by his ankle while dipping him, so his heel was never touched by the water.

Interestingly enough, that was a later addition to the myth. If you go just by the Illiad, there's no such mention of Achilles being invulnerable; in fact, his armour and shield are noted to be top-notch, particularly after his mother gives him a set of equipment forged by Hephaestus himself.

So in D&D terms, Achilles' level may not have been very high. You don't need very high combat stats when you can just walk up to your enemies and straight up murder them.

Considering he wrestled and beat to submission a river god, yes, it was, and hes, he did. :-)

[Nimin]

Roy does not have magical powers. Roy only doesn't have supernatural powers because for the world he lives in, his level of durability is considered entirely natural. If you transported Roy to our world, he would be considered superhumanly durable, on the order of a low-power superhero. Like Captain America, not Superman.

Or something more along the line of Jack Slater, of Last Action Hero: Boss in his world, normal tough guy in ours.

Nonmagical high-level D&D characters can do the backstroke in lava, hit the moon with an arrow, stand right in front of you without being seen, spontaneously cut off people's heads with their bare hands, and live forever. If you don't like it, your argument is with high-level D&D, not me.

When did I ever say I didn't like this, or had any argument against the comic or you?
I was refuting Jbiddles' notion that Roy was a supernatural being: he's not, he's just a guy whose world's laws of physics allow to take "much more punishment" before dying.

[glissle]

We could pretend Tarquin has advanced knowledge of the human anathomy, and by applying this skill masterfully pierced Elan's body without hitting major arteries, bowels or organs. Possibly between the ribs, through the lower part of his right lung (although the art doesn't really support that theory).

Mind, being pierced doesn't mean you'll die immediately irl either, you're alive until you've bled out, your blood pressure drops and your organs start failing due to lack of oxygen etc. Elan could realisticly be alive, but dying. Assuming he is, removing the sword, then force-feeding him potions until he stabilized might be a way for Tarquin to do what he just did.

Hmm, Tarquin as Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York: "you can learn a lot butchering meat". Not apparent in that scene is that Bill is pretty Lawful Evil.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Roy can survive impalement a few times, but not, say, survive a supernova next to him.

Never play Final Fantasy VII?

[dps]

There was a old thread that had a link to an article that argued that in the real world, no human being who's ever lived has ever reached a higher level than 6. Now, that article was somewhat controversial, but it's pretty clear to me that it was basically correct--the real world is a low-level, magic free world. A high-level fighter, if one existed in our world, would be able to tear tanks apart with his bare hands. Given that and the premises of DnD, high-level characters, especially fighters, being able to take a sword through the chest and live is easily believable within the context of the rules.

[Fish]

When did I ever say I didn't like this, or had any argument against the comic or you?
I was refuting Jbiddles' notion that Roy was a supernatural being...

The Giant's objection, I reckon, is to the word "supernatural."

In D&D, "supernatural" is a class or subdivision of a type of magical or extra-normal power. Roy's high HP is, by that definition, not supernatural.

However, those same HP allow him to do things and survive things which, in our world, no human can do. Thus to us, Roy appears supernatural by our standards, even though his abilities are not listed with (Su) after them.

[zimmerwald1915]

There was a old thread that had a link to an article that argued that in the real world, no human being who's ever lived has ever reached a higher level than 6. Now, that article was somewhat controversial, but it's pretty clear to me that it was basically correct--the real world is a low-level, magic free world. A high-level fighter, if one existed in our world, would be able to tear tanks apart with his bare hands. Given that and the premises of DnD, high-level characters, especially fighters, being able to take a sword through the chest and live is easily believable within the context of the rules.

Have a link for the next time you want to cite The Alexandrian.

[Nimin]

The Giant's objection, I reckon, is to the word "supernatural."

In D&D, "supernatural" is a class or subdivision of a type of magical or extra-normal power. Roy's high HP is, by that definition, not supernatural.

However, those same HP allow him to do things and survive things which, in our world, no human can do. Thus to us, Roy appears supernatural by our standards, even though his abilities are not listed with (Su) after them.

Yes, that's the same thing I was saying to Jdibbles.

[Grey Watcher]

... and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

My current high bar for crazy, that-should-not-be-possible hijinks is Haley stealing from the cast-page version of herself (which I love and think is hilarious, by the way). Next to that, Roy surviving getting gored by a triceratops seems quaintly pedestrian.

[Crusher]

This is a strawman. He didn't say that in D&D PCs can't die. He said that it is nice that it takes more than a couple of unlucky rolls to die. Which is true: on one end of the spectrum, there is D&D where warriors need to be hit multiple times with magical flaming meteorites to kill them. On the other end of the spectrum, paranoia starts you off with five clones, since everything from breathing on up is grounds for the computer to kill you.

Now, you can disagree what is more fun in each system (probably what you prefer correlates strongly with your risk aversion score), but please address the argument, not the strawman.

Grey Wolf

Paranoia was magnificent. Absolutely brilliant writers. The scenarios were as much fun to read as they were to GM.

These two did.

How on earth did you do that so fast?

[Ghost Nappa]

I still don't see the hundreds.
Maybe a few dozens, as I've said.

You can't see the base or width of the pile of corpses. It's implied it was a decent slaughter of Hobgoblins. By the necessary math of murderous rampages, that would be at least 58.54 corpses. That is a low estimate.

[Nimin]

You can't see the base or width of the pile of corpses. It's implied it was a decent slaughter of Hobgoblins. By the necessary math of murderous rampages, that would be at least 58.54 corpses. That is a low estimate.

So long as they don't pretend 600 or more corpses, I'm all good.

[Zrak]

From what I've read, using the River Styx concentrated all his vulnerability into his mortal point (in his case the heel). So getting hit anywhere else does no damage, but a hit right at the right point does 10 or 20 times the damage to compensate.

That doesn't really make the idea less silly, though. I think my general point was that Achilles, at least the version who dies from one arrow to the heel, is not a great example of how D&D power levels are screwy, or particularly applicable to a "who could survive that" discussion. Like others have said, the idea of him being invulnerable except for his heel/ankle isn't even universal. I was more just having fun with the idea of using Achilles, specifically, as a standard for fantasy hero toughness, and more generally with the potential pitfalls of the whole project of declaring what "level" characters from mythology would be.