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2014-02-06, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I'd prefer voting in-thread, but only doing big group votes before every thread update, but I would be willing to settle for literally anything else on the proviso that this thread cease the pages-long argument about voting about voting about voting about whatever immediately.
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2014-02-06, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
You clearly don't understand what a secret ballot is because what you describe is a secret ballot.
Secret Ballot
1. A type of voting in which each person's vote is kept secret, but the amassed votes of various groups are revealed publicly.
What you proposed Is a people send the curator, or perhaps sub-curators, their votes and that they be tallied and placed in a table on the thread. But Until they are counted and tabled they are secret votes hence this is a secret ballot.
Enter any reader who wishes to get an idea of the current vote and they are completely dependent on Phantasm's schedule. Even if Phantasm posted that morning the current vote it could have already changed by the time lunch comes and anyone wishing to know the current status is using an outdated poll.
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2014-02-06, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
It's been several pages, so my memory may be failing me, but didn't the original proposal call for including usernames along with the PM'd in votes for the purposes of accountability and easy vote changing?
Last edited by DaggerPen; 2014-02-06 at 09:23 PM.
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2014-02-06, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Or maybe you don't understand what I and others proposed: a single post with a list of people voting, and what their vote is, rather than pages full of single-word posts.
That is the exact thing as saying that voting by post is also secret voting because until they post the vote, it is a secret what they are going to vote for. A delay of a couple of hours is irrelevant when voting periods are measured in days.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-02-06 at 09:39 PM.
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2014-02-06, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Who cares what the current status is? If you're only going to vote when the vote is either in your favor or close enough for you to try and swing it in your favor then I don't really care about your vote. You should be voting because you feel one way or the other about the quotes in question rather than because you want the illusion of feeling special when your vote is cast.
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2014-02-06, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
*pokes head into thread*
*sees six more weeks of arguing*
*goes back to hibernation*
---
In the interest of actually contributing something beyond a half-spammy post...
I've never voted on any quote in the thread; I doubt that I ever will. I'm a casual user of this index who generally uses it to keep track of any new interesting tidbits or trivia regarding OoTS or the Giant's rather awe-inspiring smackdowns, or to find that one quote that I half-remember and of which I have need.
But I have no problem with voting in thread. It seems to me that it'd be easier to just keep all the votes in one centralized location than to flood ThePhantasm's inbox with people voting on quotes. Voting in-thread would also allow people to see each other's reasoning and possibly switch their votes if they decide to do so.
Votes do tend to get switched around during the open in-thread voting. That's a good thing because it means that discussion is taking place. I'd hate to have that lost.
But I do think it would be wise to limit the discussion to a simple vote + explanation during voting periods.
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2014-02-06, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
While I once held out hope for the thread losing the annoying arguments whenever Rich posts something nowadays, at this point I would accept arguments over the inclusion of every comment Rich ever makes again, even the post where he explains what the creature in the darkness is, which afterlife Miko went to, and what Vaarsuvius would need to do to be officially classified as redeemed, if we could just stop the current meta-argument.
Last edited by Kish; 2014-02-06 at 10:08 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2014-02-06, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I think I agree with orrion. If you want to vote, then vote. It shouldn't matter how many other votes there are or which side is winning, because nobody actually wins until the end of the voting period. If you don't care enough to vote regardless of the current vote count, then you just shouldn't vote at all because your heart is clearly not really in it.
The other thing, about people being convinced and changing their minds, should happen as a course of natural discussion regardless of whether or not the convincing post also included a vote.Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2014-02-06 at 10:11 PM.
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2014-02-06, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I believe that was actually an explanation by Gray_Wolf_c. One that does alleviate my concerns over vote inaccuracy for as not-really-formal as this thread is, since individuals would be able to verify their own votes when presented like that.
I'm not sure why the immediate availability of interim vote tallies is really a concern. I'm all for voting in posts, and letting people decide for themselves if they want to count the votes thus far or just skim the newest page or whatever; but expecting a current tally to be there seems unreasonable.
Besides....Having done interim counts here while a vote was going on, I assure you that they can and do change mid-count, even with the realtime availability of votes in posts. I don't think it's feasible to get any more responsiveness.
While I'm here...a few pages back, someone was asking why we can't just deal with thread problems when they happen (the subject at the time being being index clutter).
Well, this multi-page meta-vote argumentation is "dealing with thread problems when they happen". It's messy, and frequently frustrating. Which is why I'd prefer to prevent these kind of things from needing to happen in the first place.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-02-06, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Does this kind of thing need to happen? Like, ever? At all?
*climbs on soapbox*
People, through your overthinking you have taken the pure process of following someone across threads, forums and even mediums, writing down anything they say even remotely related to the comic and archiving it into the online equivalent of a creepy stalker murder shrine, and made it boring. Why debate this? I'm sure Phantasm has a perfectly reasonable plan that may not be everyone's first choice, but it involves Phantasm continuing to do all the work so I think it should be good enough that we can all go back to compiling the online creepy stalker murder shrine in peace.
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2014-02-06, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-02-06, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Hey, it's the proper usage of irony! A debate to make the thread less boring has exponentially increased the boredom. Ok, making the thread less boring suggestion.
Hey, what a great plan ThePhantasm has! It will limit votes to once per major thread update, it will involve ending this argument, and does anyone really feel strongly enough against this that they want to continue arguing? Apathy is next to godliness people.
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2014-02-06, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Alright, everyone, sorry for the delay. I'm settling into a new job and things have been hectic.
I haven't been able to read everything everyone has said over the past few pages, although I made an attempt. Its simply too much... too many suggestions to get a handle on. I'm just going to go with what I think will work best for me as the thread curator.
In the early days of the index, we had very few votes. The few votes that we did have had few participants and were resolved quickly. The index has grown a lot since then, and many from the GiTP community have been participating (that's a good thing!) but the growth of voices has resulted in some confusion, and we need some new guidelines on voting to help everything run smoothly and to help ensure no one's input or voice is lost in mayhem.
First of all, many have (I think rightly) suggested that the index should err towards inclusion. Indeed, most of our votes end with inclusion as the result anyways. So I'll be invoking rule F2 more often and just putting quotes in that are obviously in accord with the thread rules. Now, of course, any quote can be voted out of the index, so my say isn't final here - but it will obviously have to be voted out for some good reasons in order to sway everyone! I don't think it will ever actually happen that I include a quote that the majority is against anyways (given that most people seem to be in favor of inclusion). I don't think I've ever been in the minority arguing for inclusion, and only (occasionally) in the minority arguing for exclusion.
Secondly, quotes will be added to the index either a) when there are at least 6 of them on the docket or b) when it has been two months since the last new quote. We're due for an update now, and I'll be getting to that soon. Obviously updates can get delayed by life and stuff but I'll try to attend to them promptly when I can.
Before any update, the thread will vote (if needed). For a vote to be called, two separate posters need to PM me requesting a vote. No spontaneous voting (i.e. voting not called by the curator) will be counted! I simply can't keep up with it all! Requests for a vote will only be considered if friendly discussion has not brought consensus - remember, voting is a last resort, not a first resort!
Once a vote is called, we will vote IN THREAD but please don't discuss during the voting (that way the votes can be easily counted). Votes will be quick... probably 24-48 hours. Why in thread? I think it will be simply easier for me to count the votes by scanning down a page rather than opening individual PMs (and multiple votes may not fit in PM subject titles). Plus with how the voting numbers seem to grow each time I'm not sure my inbox could handle it for long! So it will be in thread, but ONLY before each update so that we minimize thread clutter.
Speaking of thread clutter - discussing whether a quote should be in the index is not clutter. I realize it can be tiring to see constant discussions going on, but again, this is a community project, and so everyone gets a say. Once a quote has been accepted or rejected by vote, the discussion should be able to conclude amicably. In other words, it would be time to move on.
I hope everyone finds this fair and agreeable. I am, as always, open to further suggestions.Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2014-02-06 at 11:42 PM.
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
The Index of the Giant's Comments | Thanks, Bradakhan, for the avatar!
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2014-02-06, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Thanks. I agree 100% with what you propose, and even if I agreed only 80% I would still support it, because well, you're the one who bears the brunt of any mess we create here. You're suggesting something that results in:
- more rare votes
- no spontaneous votes
- an amount of work for you, that you can manage (and you're the best judge of that by far)
- bias towards inclusion, which I think is consensus.
That's it, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks!DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2014-02-06, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
It's one of those "investment" things, making the thread more boring for a bit now so it will be less boring in the future. (Also, the pages of debate over whether voting by PM is better than voting by post are less boring than the pages of votes, so that's like an improvement! I suspect my personal fascination with decision-making processes is a factor, though.)
If we're due for an update, let me repeat my list of quotes that are outstanding, maybe save you some time:
{table=head]{colsp=3}Fourth Verse: Vote Overload Curse
[div]Elan is (Still) Chaotic Good[/div]Elan let Tarquin fall because he was using a different interpretation of Chaotic Good.|#936|01/11/2014
[div]"Lovable" Does Not Mean "Not Evil"[/div]Case in point, Thog.|#936|01/11/2014
[div]Haley is Still Chaotic Good[/div]|#936|01/12/2014
[div]OOTS is Not Still in Girard's Illusion[/div]|#942|01/28/2014
[div]Art Colors can Change[/div]Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't.|#942|01/28/2014
[div]Bandana Orders a Crewman Around in #943 to Break up Comic Monotony[/div]Also, "hit the head" means "use the restroom".|#943|02/05/2014
[/table]
(Reminder, the Girard's Illusion one was already voted to be included.)Last edited by Jasdoif; 2014-02-07 at 04:26 AM. Reason: Corrected the comic number in the title for Bandana
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-02-07, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Bandana orders a crewman around in 943, not 936. Also, is that really something people were confused about?
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2014-02-07, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-07, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
3DS Friend Code: 3067-5674-0852. Currently running: Emerald.
Latias, Groudon, Rayquaza, Kyogre promised to JustPlayItLoud for a shiny Gastly, Gulpin, Frogadier, and Dedenne. Regirock, Regice, Registeel up for grabs.
Spoiler: Living Shinydex Progress 31/718 Newest Shiny: BunearyGen I: 9/151
Gen II: 6/100
Gen III: 7/135
Gen IV: 3/107
Gen V: 3/156
Gen VI: 2/69
Come visit World's Finest Gaming on Tumblr or Facebook or even our Youtube channel and watch me stream!
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2014-02-07, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
If most of the confusion was over what "the head" meant, then I'm more convinced than ever that this doesn't belong in the index. It's a real term, and if someone doesn't recognize it they can look it up - we don't need a comment for that. The Bandana thing is marginal at best, but it loses even more justification if it's not an issue that a lot of people were asking about.
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2014-02-07, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I must've been looking at the wrong strip number when I did that title....OK, that's fixed; Thanks.
Yeah, I'm not seeing how it would merit inclusion on either angle...although if the quote does get included because of the Bandana thing, I figure we may as well mention the bit about "hit the head" with it too.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-02-07, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I personally think if we want to include it we should explicitly omit the "hit the head": I don't think we should adding statement when Rich says something that is just true and is easily verifiable by an outside source.
By adding this comment the next time Rich says "A table is something you can put things on" (or other true statements that can be answered as easily without the author needing to say anything on it), someone might start arguing: So explaining "head" is something we collect, but explaining "table" doesn't fit?
(Also I find it weird from a thematic standpoint on top of that, it just doesn't belong in any category where the Bandana would be put into. And normally the paragraph below a quote does add stuff that has something to do with the topic stated from the link.)
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2014-02-07, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
we could always suggest to the Phantasm to include a lmgtfy link in the first post:
http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=hit+the+head
by the way, thanks Phantasm for the thread and I fully concur with all your suggestions in your last post.
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2014-02-07, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I suggest we include it even so. The problem is that we have a number of people here for whom English is not a first language, and if they trust google to tell them what 'head' means, they may fail to note the nautical context and assume Julio is striking himself on the skull or -- if they read urban dictionary and conclude that 'head' refers to a part of the male genitalia -- that he is doing something unmentionable in a family-friendly forum.* The Giant HAS made jokes of that nature before.
So while "hit the head" unequivocally means "used the bathroom to relieve himself before the trip" to ME, because I am both an English-speaker and familiar with nautical terminology, I can well see that it might be confusing to a reader in Hong Kong or Russia.
So it is both right and proper for the Giant to clarify , and the forum to index the comment, rather than send someone on a google hunt which will lead them to a radically incorrect conclusion.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
* Although, realistically, I sometimes wonder if EVERY English word is a double entendre of some kind or other, somewhere , in some usage.Last edited by pendell; 2014-02-07 at 10:40 AM.
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2014-02-07, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
On the other hand, yes, every English word is a double entendre in the right context.
3DS Friend Code: 3067-5674-0852. Currently running: Emerald.
Latias, Groudon, Rayquaza, Kyogre promised to JustPlayItLoud for a shiny Gastly, Gulpin, Frogadier, and Dedenne. Regirock, Regice, Registeel up for grabs.
Spoiler: Living Shinydex Progress 31/718 Newest Shiny: BunearyGen I: 9/151
Gen II: 6/100
Gen III: 7/135
Gen IV: 3/107
Gen V: 3/156
Gen VI: 2/69
Come visit World's Finest Gaming on Tumblr or Facebook or even our Youtube channel and watch me stream!
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2014-02-07, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Yes, yes they are:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett in alt.fan.pratchett
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-02-07 at 10:49 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2014-02-07, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
C'mon, really? All you need to do is type "hit the head" - Julio's exact phrase - into Google and the first 3 hits are all "going to the bathroom." Similarly, typing in "what does hit the head mean" into Google brings up a giant definition box at the front of the search that says "to go to the bathroom."
We don't need to index such a comment when there are various other ways of figuring it out (such as the "Things you didn't understand" thread). The index is for quotes about the story and not for joke clarifications. I would posit that there's a joke or reference in every single one of the 943 comics that someone doesn't get.
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2014-02-07, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I would answer that argument the same way I came to my conclusion above: An explanation of a common term does not warrant inclusion in the Index on its own, even if it's a recurring question. However, if a quote with such an explanation is included in the Index for other reasons, and the explanation is a repeated question, then it makes no sense not to include it in the summary since we already have the quote in the Index.
Normally, yes; but we have made ancillary connections before:
{table=head]{colsp=3}Culture and Religion
[div]Class Systems and Careers[/div]Also, FYI, Durkon isn't "white."|#882|04/08/2013
[/table]
I think we got different impressions from ThePhantasm's post above, particularly where he said "discussing whether a quote should be in the index is not clutter."FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-02-07, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
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2014-02-07, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
I am very much in agreement here, this thread shouldn't just serve to notify people whenever Rich post something, so the following should not be seen as a critique, but may I make the suggestion that when an argument drags on past a certain point (well past the point that voting is going to happen) that you can put a stop to the discussion until the vote happens. Otherwise I fear we may again be looking at discussions that drag on for weeks after everything meaningful has been said.
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2014-02-07, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
The Index of the Giant's Comments | Thanks, Bradakhan, for the avatar!