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Thread: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-12, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Variant, non-broken monk.
I'm making a PC for a new campaign. This PC is one I want to be overpowered (it's a high optimization group) through variant rules. I'm forgetting something... oh, right, it's a monk. Go to town, build me a build. It'll be an interesting show of what you can do.
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2014-06-12, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
What level, starting stats, and any limits on race/alignment?
Also, any reason your not building a sword sage?
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2014-06-12, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-12, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Probably the strongest variant is Martial Monk, especially in the early game. You trade your monk bonus feat for a fighter bonus feat that otherwise follows the rules of the normal monk bonus feat to roughly paraphrase at level 1-2. One of the rules of the normal monk bonus feat is the monk doesn't have to meet any of the normal prerequisites for the feat. Take powerful feats at the top of feat trees at 1-2 (weapon supremacy is one of the usual choices, other choices are pretty much up to you). The next strongest monk variant is wild monk from dragon #324, which sadly does not give the monk bonus feats so you can't be a martial wild monk. It's a monk that gives up a few different monk class features to gain wildshape as well as some random druid class features. Honestly this is likely to scale into the late game way better than martial monk, since wildshaping is way more relevant at level 20 than weapon supremacy. Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike are monk features that cause him to lose evasion and flurry of blows respectivley. Invisible fist is swift invisibility while decisive strike gives you the ability to true strike instead of flurrying. Both are a whole lot better than the abilities they replace. Your best bet is probably a martial monk with those two ACFs for the early game or a wild monk with those two ACFs for later in the game.
Edit: Actually, you probably don't need to ACF away flurry of blows on wild monk. With access to a number of wildshape forms with pounce, the wild monk should have no problem moving and attacking in the same round, and flurry of blows on pounce is probably a lot stronger than decisive strike on it.Last edited by Kennisiou; 2014-06-12 at 09:37 AM.
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2014-06-12, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Monk 2 / Psionic Warrior 17 / Shiba Protector 1 with Tashalatora is very decent
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2014-06-12, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
-Obligatory Tashlatora Monk post-
Built with flurry/ unarmed strike/ AC bonus and psionic powers.
Psychic warrior is mid tier, you can create an ardent using the same base feats.
-drat foiled again by a swashbuckler!Last edited by Nightraiderx; 2014-06-12 at 09:45 AM.
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2014-06-12, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Wild Monk6/MoMF10/Shou Disciple4 perhaps if DM is a B about natural weapons and FoB, otherwise substitute for something nice.
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2014-06-12, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
atemu1234
Are you looking specifically for MONK or for an unarmed combatant?
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2014-06-12, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-12, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Very, very hard case there. If you're insistent on Monk levels, how about ...
Human Rogue1/Monk4/Dragon Descendant10/(something)5
Feats the first three levels:
1 Dragontouched, Able Learner
2 Stunning Fist
3 Combat Reflexes, Craven
Able Learner gives you a whole bunch of utility from your Rogue skills. (Also gives you UMD as a class skill, for when you're using all of those partially-charged wands). When you reach Dragon Descendant3 you can activate Subtle Ancestor, making your Dragon Descendant levels stack with Rogue for sneak attack (and granting an extra 2d6 sneak). Craven improves the damage from there. Depending on how your DM rules, it's possible that you could qualify for some of the Sneak Attack feats that require more than 1d6 sneak; that's in iffy territory though.
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2014-06-12, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Martial chaos monk with warlock and hellfire warlock (plus binder 1 and some dips for keying things off of charisma) gives you a lot of damage and a decent set of skills
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2014-06-12, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
This. Totally this. But you may want to take this build and use monk/psywar instead of monk/fighter/psywar/cleric. The only reason I didn't go Tashalatoran psychic warrior is because I had to use 17+ levels of monk for the challenge. Tashalatora would've worked even better.
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2014-06-12, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
That's only true to a limited, likely non-useful, extent.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.
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2014-06-12, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
OK, what about the class MONK do you want out of this build? Also check with your DM to see if he will allow the feat superior unarmed strike from ToB.
Without knowing what about MONK you want it is hard to work out a good build. For some cases Rogue 20 with improved unarmed strike will do better than a Monk...
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2014-06-12, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-06-12 at 11:25 AM.
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2014-06-12, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-12, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Is it okay to be a monk in feel without using actual monk levels?
"We were once so close to heaven, Peter came out and gave us medals declaring us 'The nicest of the damned'.."
- They Might Be Giants, "Road Movie To Berlin"
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2014-06-12, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
This is a guy who was worried he might unbalance monk...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...nt-feat-orders
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2014-06-12, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-12, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-06-12 at 12:56 PM.
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2014-06-12, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-12, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
According to the SRD:
Originally Posted by SRDLast edited by Rubik; 2014-06-12 at 01:03 PM.
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2014-06-12, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-12, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-12, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-12, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
There's one list, and the eats are not added to that list ("the list"). It's that simple. A fighter may select the newer feats, but a monk is not a fighter. Martial Monk does not give "Fighter Bonus Feats," but the "Fighter Bonus Feat List."
If it's not in a list, it's not in a list. It's needs to be written as a list to be list. Wizards have a lot of lists. Fighters have 1 list. And that's being generous.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-06-12 at 03:40 PM.
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2014-06-12, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-06-12, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
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2014-06-13, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
Well, either you're wrong, or this belong in the dysfunctionnal rules thread. No sane DM should rule that a monk can't take fighter bonus feat, only feats in the fighter bonus feat list. Just like the fact that a monk is not by RAW proficient with its monk strike, but clearly is by RAI (and I defy you to argue that the authors thought this would be a problem, and purposely created it).
To furhter my point, in no place in any book is there pointed outa meaningful distinctionany distinction between those two notions (as in they are never referenceddifferentlyboth in the same sentence or group of sentence. The only distinction is the addition of the term "list". I believe it is clear as crystal that no meaningfull distinction was intended by the authors.
Anyway, such a distinction woul not even make sense as there is no reason to add a feat to a bonus feat list so it can be by the first (in chronological order) class beneficiating from it, but not to the others, and there is even less reason not to point it out explicitely, saying : "however, this feat is not added to the fighter bonus feat list".
And if you go to the already poor, weak monk, and say as a DM: "no, you can't select this feat, as I found a subtle difference in phrasing between two notions that are clearly the same, you should just play the RAW-legal Punpun instead", well, I don't know what to say to you.
So such considerations are great in a 'lets point out all the dysfunctionnal rules' thread and all, but when it comes to create and play an actual character, I believe they can be safely ignored.
Also, to the op, did you know of Giacommo's guide to monks?
P.S.:(My poor knowledge of the english language made me think that the 'type a elements list' contained all elements of type a, even those that say: 'those elements are treated as if of type a'.)Black is for nitpicking.
Black is for sarcasm.
Blue is for serious.
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2014-06-13, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Variant, non-broken monk.
My recipe is Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, with just enough wizard to qualify for Abjurant Champion ASAP. Go conjurer, pick up Abrupt Jaunt ACF, Sun School, and Snap Kick. If you can manage it, grab Obtain Familiar, and work with benign transposition and similar effects, maybe even the reserve feat for teleporting in Complete Mage. Basically, the idea is to trigger attacks off of teleporting. Some higher-op builds can cram shadowpounce in there, but then monk ends up being a footnote to the build. I got a DM to accept that Abrupt Jaunt doesn't require LoS to the destination (totally plausible) which made this lots of fun for infiltration; teleporting to the other side of a wall or locked door is fun.
After Abjurant Champion, consider more monk (for a challenge) or Master of the East Wind (a monk/arcanist class from Dragon Magazine...or maybe it was Master of the West Wind).
So, be LG, go for luminous armour (Book of Exalted Deeds). Have an AC of "no." Either cast yourself of get ally to cast mighty wallop/greater mighty wallop whenever possible. Wraithstrike is good on tough enemies that need to go down in a hurry. Have a necklace of natural attacks (3.5 version in web content is almost identical to the one in Savage Species...down to the stupid suggestion to use it with the throwing enchantment, as I recall). Metalline or the ToM shadowstriking would be ideal, but there are a ton of WSAs that work really well on monk attacks (especially from a flavor standpoint).
My favorite ACFs for monk are Wallwalker (Dungeonscape), Prayerful Meditation (Complete Champion), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), and perhaps some of the planar monk sub levels from Planar Handbook. If you have a penchant for sneakiness, go for Invisible Fist. I don't think the concealment one is compatible with luminous armour due to alignment conflicts, but I might be misremembering.
So, overall, it's an Int-based monk that teleports around and kicks ass. Be shiny in glowing, heavenly armour of goodness, or be dark and sneaky. I eventually got high enough that I had adamantine strike from monk levels, and had lots of fun bashing holes in walls, teleporting circles around pit fiends, and generally making trouble for my DM.In my dreams, I am currently adruid 20/wizard 10/arcane hierophant 10/warshaper 5.Actually, after giving birth to a galaxy by splitting a black hole, level is no longer relevant.
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