OOTS #971 - The Discussion Thread

[jere7my]

Actually, Romero zombies actually did eat flesh. Although they didn't really eat brains until Return of the Living Dead, which was a much more comedic movie.
...Or so I've heard.

Return of the Living Dead was Dan O'Bannon, who wrote the screenplay for Alien, not Romero.

[Keltest]

Then explain her color and well preserved nature? Hmmmm, not a Zombie.

She is most definitely not a zombie. besides not matching any previous portrayals of zombies, she is also clearly sapient (or as sapient as anything made from Crystal is likely to be).

[GM_3826]

Return of the Living Dead was Dan O'Bannon, who wrote the screenplay for Alien, not Romero.

...Way to be picky.

[Etheolin]

Um... not to argue the matter, but wouldn't flesh and BRAAAAAAIIIINNNSSS be simply substitutions for her old diet, and the relative good preserved nature of her form indicate she is eating way more (not actually in the rules, but perhaps in the concept, that to remain well-preserved and unrotting, Zombies need to eat more brains and living/recently living bodies to stay relatively life-like in appearance... so the fact that Crystal is so non-decomposed, despite dying shortly after the family in the pyramid, implies that she has been eating more...), not less... if she is in fact a Zombie (vs my postulate that she is a Wight, which would just suck life energies through negative levels/level drain, in which her soul and not her body is rotting, instead)

I thought for certain that you'd throw in a 'Wight Watchers' there someplace.

[GAAD]

I thought for certain that you'd throw in a 'Wight Watchers' there someplace.

and mhy wight he do that, exactly?

[jere7my]

...Way to be picky.

Trust me, if you want to have an internet discussion about the rules of zombies, it's best to draw the distinction.

[kierthos]

Trust me, if you want to have an internet discussion about the rules of zombies, it's best to draw the distinction.

If I recall correctly, Libris Mortis has a zombie template for the 'brain eating' variety.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

and mhy wight he do that, exactly?

Because I'm known for my pungent sense of humor? They're real painful, side splitting, mind blowing, killer humor... like a punch to the gut. Sometimes they're so bad that I have to be punished, even pay punitive damages. I almost have a compunction to stop... but i don't. It is why I am an epic pungeon master of the highest levels.

[Turin_19]

Is this a "lesson" Haley gets for the time she murdered Crystal?

Crystal is her Nemesis, but the way Haley killed her... Well, that wasn't nice at all. It was (should have been) effective, but now we see it wasn't.

If so, we could see Haley lose something in the following strips.

[Quild]

Is this a "lesson" Haley gets for the time she murdered Crystal?

Crystal is her Nemesis, but the way Haley killed her... Well, that wasn't nice at all. It was (should have been) effective, but now we see it wasn't.

If so, we could see Haley lose something in the following strips.

Haley quite expected that Bozzok would have Crystal raised. I believe that she is quite an important asset of the guild.

The way she killed Crystal isn't nice at all, but eyh, not everyone is the Marquess of Fantailler Queensberry.


My group was once to fight a group of bards supposed to be quite a challenge. We could have fight them outside town, but decided to fight them while they were performing, and thus, without most of their stuff.
Turned out to be a bad idea after all, but the fighting part went quite easily.

[littlebum2002]

Haley quite expected that Bozzok would have Crystal raised. I believe that she is quite an important asset of the guild.

The way she killed Crystal isn't nice at all, but eyh, not everyone is the Marquess of Fantailler Queensberry.


My group was once to fight a group of bards supposed to be quite a challenge. We could have fight them outside town, but decided to fight them while they were performing, and thus, without most of their stuff.
Turned out to be a bad idea after all, but the fighting part went quite easily.

This. It was fairly obvious from Haley's speech that Crystal would be coming back, in one form of the other. It was like the serious version of Trigak.

[goodpeople25]

. The way she killed Crystal isn't nice at all, but eyh, not everyone is the Marquess of Fantailler Queensberry.

Um actually i think haley is nicer than the marquess of fantialiier cause if i rememberer correctly from snuff he killed his wife (with a knife).

Ya not even the maquess follows the maquess rules

[GandoDaGreat]

I'm reading this strip over and over again and looking at every panel for like 10 minutes each. Here is my (completely crazy) response:

Crystal looks a lot like the past golems, with all the stitching together and stuff. Of course, Haley didn't screw up Crystal's corpse too bad or anything. If Crystal IS now a golem, why did they need to stitch her up? And how does she have her memory? (or at least parts of it?)

On the undead spectrum...She could be one of those undead avenging-types, i.e. "You killed me, now my entire existence is devoted to your death" kind of thing. But, that brings up the earlier question of why she looks as if she has so many stitches. And what would Bozzok be doing there, considering that, as an avenging undead, she wouldn't care about and/or remember the Thieve's Guild?

She could be psionic, but how would the Thieve's Guild get their hands on a psion?

Here's my an insane theory: (that's actually complete, instead of the questions above) We know that Ian has discovered Geoff's betrayal involving the Thieve's Guild. Let's say that Ian is somehow preventing Geoff from contacting the Thieve's Guild, or Geoff agreed to stop contacting the Thieve's Guild. Coupled with the fact that Bozzok now knows where Haley is, Bozzok gets the Thieve's Guild to get their butts down to the Western Continent fast. They meet Tarquin. Tarquin has a bone to pick with every member of the Order save Elan, and Bozzok has a bone to pick with Haley. Tarquin knows Haley, and knows that she is part of the Order of the Stick. Figuring that any assistance in wiping out Elan's fellow party members will be useful, Tarquin and Bozzok decide to assist each other. Tarquin gives the Thieve's Guild something, (maybe Haley?) and in return they take down the Order. Also, part of the deal between Tarquin and Bozzok included turning Crystal into whatever she is now. This was done by Miron (if she's undead) and/or Laurin. (if she's psionic)

This is just really thinking out loud. Hope it offers some ideas for people.

[kierthos]

The stitching could just be for the reader's benefit.

Okay, I don't really buy that either.

[goto124]

If Crystal IS now a golem, why did they need to stitch her up?

Because her corpse rotted a bit, maybe?

[Ridin'TheCrash]

Because her corpse rotted a bit, maybe?

I think its quite clear shes not a golem like the ones we've seen before, she clearly has some sentience left, plus, i severely doubt that bozo would bother having grubby winker raise. its not worth the whole "betrayed you" hassel. people can be so pissy after you have them killed

[GM_3826]

Um actually i think haley is nicer than the marquess of fantialiier cause if i rememberer correctly from snuff he killed his wife (with a knife).

Ya not even the maquess follows the maquess rules

Yeah, but he crossed that out and said the Marquess of Queensbury. Who is completely different.
Plus, he's the MARQUIS of Fantaillier, not the Marquess...

[WolvesbaneIII]

So we still don't know for sure what crystal is?

So heres a question.

Does this new crystal stand a chance at wrecking the whole party?

or at least the current party involved?

Could durkula take this thing out? on a date?? or in combat?

[littlebum2002]

So we still don't know for sure what crystal is?

So heres a question.

Does this new crystal stand a chance at wrecking the whole party?

or at least the current party involved?

Could durkula take this thing out? on a date?? or in combat?

If she's a revenant, the party could almost certainly take her out. In combat. But right now you have the 2 party members who would be WORST in a combat against undead (no sneak attack, and DR) so it would be a tough battle.

Except you know Haley has just the wand to help!

EDIT: NM about DR. A Revenant has DR 5/+1, and I'm assuming everyone in the Order has +1 weapons by this point, so that is moot.

[Smolder]

The difficulty of the battle will be decided by (a) where Crystal's dagger is and (b) whether Haley and Bandana can continue to Evade Revenant-Crystal's melee attacks. Considering they're both rogues, they should be able to drag the fight out for a while.

[kierthos]

All depends on whether Crystal is a credible threat or intended to be a speedbump/distraction for Bozzok (and whoever else he may have brought with him) to attack Haley.

Mind you, I don't think Bozzok brought anyone else. The Thieves' Guild lost quite a few low-ranking members, and because Haley broke the deal, they could all still be dead. (It's one thing to have someone else pay to raise 1st-3rd level rogues, it's another thing to pay for it yourself.) Regardless, the low-level thieves are not a major threat to Haley. And if Bozzok brought anyone besides Crystal, it really shows that he can't do this by himself. Doesn't make his position look all that strong, know what I mean?

[Tvtyrant]

Could be the super zombies from Incarnum. They don't lose their minds, and attack with slam attacks.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Could be the super zombies from Incarnum. They don't lose their minds, and attack with slam attacks.

That's an interesting suggestion. We have evidence that there are Incarnum users in OOTS-world, so it's certainly not impossible.

[Liliet]

Wow, I missed A LOT! (haven't seen anything since the hiatus)

Art upgrade! Yay! I'm predicting the trident hands will be the next to get turned into something prettier ^^ maybe not detailed hands with each finger carefully and correctly drawn, but still... something prettier

Last I was here, people were talking about how Durkon won't get any char dev now that Durkula is on the stage. Guess again - we are even getting backstory! I am still upset because I generally don't like "this isn't who you think this is" plots - at least the audience now knows - but hey, objectively this is an awesome way to make the rules work without completely overriding the personality of a major character :\

I really, really like Bandana. And how Haley attempts to rogue-bond with her but keeps getting rebuttals as she has a completely different build and completely different personality. And how they are going to bond anyway - that's my prediction, by the way.

I might also be just about the only person here to really like Crystal's return. I haven't read this comic in like a year, but I still remember her as Haley's rival, major milestone in her character arc, and just her own character. She's much less likable than Thog, but I'm still fond of her :0
"Nice boots" if I'm not mistaken these are THOSE VERY BOOTS, the lime boots of speed, just dyed another color. Awesome ^^
time for some girl on girl action

[Liliet]

Impossible? Bah! This is a 3.5e world. Nale was killed, disintegrated to dust, and scattered to the desert wind. Reversing that would take a pair of 7th level spells: limited wish to collect the dust, then resurrection. A 13th level party could manage that.

Nevertheless, "Revenant Nale" is unlikely. Recreating his corpse would require a full wish or miracle. If you have a top-tier caster for a 9th level spell, true resurrection is a much better option.

Edit: Crystal is probably a revenant, for the reasons given by Stella.

limited wish + resurrection yes please
yes, I still want Nale back )=

[ti'esar]

Hey, Liliet, good to hear you're all right. Your prolonged absence combined with your listed location was a bit worrying.

[Liliet]

Hey, Liliet, good to hear you're all right. Your prolonged absence combined with your listed location was a bit worrying.

It was for me too! I mean, not my absence from the forums, I knew what was up with that (diploma+job+discovering tumblr), but stuff going on at my listed location >_>
It's nice to be back, but it's not even comparable with the niceness of being greeted by people who actually remember me and are glad to meet me :0 ^-^

ANYWAY, I wanted to also note on Crystal golem / Crystal undead debate... It doesn't matter whether Grubwiggler was resurrected or they found an Evil cleric. What matters is, will Durkula at some point join the fight and if he is, how effective is he going to be? I understand that a lower-level undead is much more of a no match for a vampire cleric than a construct... then again, barely anything is even close to a match for a vampire cleric, so Durkula is probably not joining this fight. So the question is entirely irrelevant to anything.
And that is my conclusion on that debate for now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hey there, Liliet. Good to have you back.

I like Crystal's return, but I've been spending far too much time speculating on what she is to say that.

[Liliet]

Hey there, Liliet. Good to have you back.

I like Crystal's return, but I've been spending far too much time speculating on what she is to say that.

Hey ^-^

Ah yes, how could I! It's absolutely relevant to general DnD nerdery.

(it's just that I am not a DnD nerd and only have narrative clues to go on and those are keeping silent. and having recently joined the ranks of homestuck theorists, I have a major penalty to my "not voice my opinion" Will save)

[ithildur]

She is most definitely not a zombie. besides not matching any previous portrayals of zombies, she is also clearly sapient (or as sapient as anything made from Crystal is likely to be).

... I do not think that word means what you think it means. Perhaps you meant sentient?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sapient

But I do agree, she's not a zombie, hard to see why there's debate about this.