MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Peelee]

It could be just cartoon effects and we are nitpicking.

Man, it's very possible, but given that we have so little to go on, erring on the side of caution seems prudent. Barring a very excellent explanation that allows for cartoon effects to be taken into account and fits quite well.

[Tathum]

Looking through this thread, I didn't see any reference to it, so I thought I would mention it...

During my monthly ritual of reading all of the comics over again, I came across #451 (all hail the Bradbury) and noted that in panel number two, Redcloak makes note of the MitD's whining, sarcastically stating that no 'mortal' would be able to resist it.

I have no idea if it actually means anything, I just figured it was worth noting. This could be a possible reference to the MitD NOT being of the Prime Material Plane, instead being of extraplanar origin and therefor, an immortal in some way.

[Keltest]

Looking through this thread, I didn't see any reference to it, so I thought I would mention it...

During my monthly ritual of reading all of the comics over again, I came across #451 (all hail the Bradbury) and noted that in panel number two, Redcloak makes note of the MitD's whining, sarcastically stating that no 'mortal' would be able to resist it.

I have no idea if it actually means anything, I just figured it was worth noting. This could be a possible reference to the MitD NOT being of the Prime Material Plane, instead being of extraplanar origin and therefor, an immortal in some way.

Redcloak is making a sarcastic comment about how whining is about the worst possible way to convince someone to do something without overtly antagonizing them.

[Tathum]

Redcloak is making a sarcastic comment about how whining is about the worst possible way to convince someone to do something without overtly antagonizing them.

If he were simply being sarcastic, I would think he would just say "What orc could..." or "What person could..."

To specifically state "What mortal could..." seems a lot more specific than a simple joke or sarcastic comment would typically warrant.

[Keltest]

If he were simply being sarcastic, I would think he would just say "What orc could..." or "What person could..."

To specifically state "What mortal could..." seems a lot more specific than a simple joke or sarcastic comment would typically warrant.

you find "mortal" to be more specific than saying "orc"? Even if we accept that as true, he is referring to himself as the mortal, and he is obviously unmoved.

[Tathum]

you find "mortal" to be more specific than saying "orc"? Even if we accept that as true, he is referring to himself as the mortal, and he is obviously unmoved.

I mean that Recloak specifically chose the word "mortal" as opposed to using a word more relevant to him.

A casual, off the cuff quip would be "who could resist that?" But, choosing to use that particular word seems like a deliberate move on Rich's part.

Sorry, I thought I was making an obvious point. Looking back, I could've made it a bit more clear.

[Professor Gnoll]

I mean that Recloak specifically chose the word "mortal" as opposed to using a word more relevant to him.

A casual, off the cuff quip would be "who could resist that?" But, choosing to use that particular word seems like a deliberate move on Rich's part.

Sorry, I thought I was making an obvious point. Looking back, I could've made it a bit more clear.

I think he's just being overly dramatic to increase the sarcasm factor. It really doesn't seem like a specific reference to a power.

[Lissou]

Yeah, I read it as "you'd need to be some kind of god to be able to resist!". At any rate it doesn't prove anything about MitD's mortality one way or the other, in my opinion.

[Kish]

Redcloak is not an orc.

(Recloak might be, though.)

[b_jonas]

Yeah, I read it as "you'd need to be some kind of god to be able to resist!". At any rate it doesn't prove anything about MitD's mortality one way or the other, in my opinion.

There's no need to get gods involved. There's lots of non-living creatures around them, such as the lich Xykon, the zombies Redcloak creates, and the daemon roaches.

[Crusher]

Looking through this thread, I didn't see any reference to it, so I thought I would mention it...

During my monthly ritual of reading all of the comics over again, I came across #451 (all hail the Bradbury) and noted that in panel number two, Redcloak makes note of the MitD's whining, sarcastically stating that no 'mortal' would be able to resist it.

I have no idea if it actually means anything, I just figured it was worth noting. This could be a possible reference to the MitD NOT being of the Prime Material Plane, instead being of extraplanar origin and therefor, an immortal in some way.

Probably not, though it is a point I don't think I've heard raised before. Anyway, the real problem is that Redcloak is suggesting that *he* is a god by resisting MitD's whining. We know that Redcloak's not divine, so therefore the implication that MitD is also divine/extraplanar must be joking.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Reading some of the earlier comics, it occurred to me that the "what gate?" bit might be one of the most important attributes of the Monster in the Dark. This is around the time Rich says he decided what it is, and it does that several times (e.g. #96 and #106).

I still like Snorlax best :) But, similar to many other guesses, it doesn't address that.

[Olinser]

One note that I just noticed.

I see in the tracking of MiTD strips that #900 says 'doesn't know what a pelvis is'. Xykon asks if anybody has seen his pelvis, and MiTD asks, 'left or right'.

I would like to point out that isn't necessarily confusion about what a pelvis is, and may actually be a clue to the fact that he has four lower limbs with two pelvises (or even more), explaining why he asked 'left or right'.

For instance, if Rich did put together an Abomination, he could have four legs from two hip+leg assemblies sewn onto him, which would give him 2 pelvises. Likewise, any shapeshifter could add extra lower pelvis/leg assemblies at will.

In addition, quite a number of monsters have either an ambiguous description of limbs or have been drawn in such a way that it looks like they should indeed have two pelvises.

Just from examples that fit the big scenes, both the Hagunemnon and the Uvuudaum could both potentially have two pelvises (Uvuudaum has SIX limbs and definitely could have two or even three pelvises, while Hagunemnon is a shapeshifter).

Interestingly, humans being born with 2 pelvises IS A REAL THING.





Also, I noticed that the linked entry to Athasian Nightmare Beast has been deleted at the destination.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One note that I just noticed.

I see in the tracking of MiTD strips that #900 says 'doesn't know what a pelvis is'. Xykon asks if anybody has seen his pelvis, and MiTD asks, 'left or right'.

I would like to point out that isn't necessarily confusion about what a pelvis is, and may actually be a clue to the fact that he has four lower limbs with two pelvises (or even more), explaining why he asked 'left or right'.

Someone familiar with what a pelvis is would not be confused over how many Xykon has, since you can see and count them. Only someone that doesn't know which bone is a pelvis can ask that question to Xykon, presumably thinking it is one of the many bones in the legs, rather than the one at the top.

Edit:

Spoiler: Athasian Nightmate Beast, Recovered from the now-deleted Wizards Forum

Show

Jun 30, 2005 17:15:25

I just started work on the next revision of Terrors of Athas and I figured I'd take a look at doing a conversion of the nightmare beast that was closer to the DS2e version than the one that appears in MM2. Here's a little look at where I am so far - throw any feedback my way

Nightmare Beast, Athasian

Huge Magical Beast (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 15d10+120 (202 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+33
Attack: Claw +23 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 claws +23 melee (2d6+10) and 2 horns +21 melee (2d9+5) and bite +21 melee (6d6+5)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, trample 2d8+15
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 15/magic, lowlight vision, SR 15
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 14, Con 27, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +15, Jump +14, Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +10
Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Overrun, Multiattack, Power Attack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Gargantuan); 31-45 HD (Colossal)


An immense horror on four clawed legs, this titanic beast is covered in a thick, leathery hide of mottled blue and gray. A pair of enormous curving tusks flank jaws that sport teeth the length of shortswords, with canines twice that size. Its eyes blaze with a lurid crimson light and fix you with a gaze that seethes with grim cunning.

A nightmare beast is one of the most feared creatures on the face of Athas. Rumored to have been created in ages past through the use of vile defiler magics, nightmare beasts are intelligent monstrosities possessing powerful psionic and magical abilities. Dominated by their voracious appetites, nightmare beasts divide their time between slumbering in their lairs and roaming the land in destructive orgies of all-devouring hunger.
Once thought to number as many as one hundred, there are now believed to be as few as half a dozen such creatures left in existence on Athas. Nevertheless, the appearance of a nightmare beast spells disaster for any inhabitants in the area as, when it is active, a nightmare beast’s main purpose is to feed itself. When active, a nightmare beast will alternate between resting in its lair for six hours and then hunting for six hours and maintains this cycle of activity for weeks on end. When this alternating cycle is complete, the nightmare beast will return to its lair for as long as a year, before emerging once more to begin the hunting cycle again.
The intelligence possessed by nightmare beasts, coupled with their devastating array of offensive powers, has led many sages to speculate that these creatures were bred for some long-forgotten war. Indeed, when threatened, a nightmare beast displays an uncanny degree of cunning and will often concentrate its powers specifically on those whom it feels have earned its vengeance.
A nightmare beast is omnivorous, and will not shirk from attacking fortified structures in order to reach its prey. Lore has it, however, that a nightmare beast will refrain from attacking drakes, megapedes or dragons. Everything else is fair game.
When slain, a nightmare beast’s body decays at an unnaturally fast rate; it is believed that the magical energies that created it dissipate upon its death, leading to a sudden degeneration of its corpse. The horns, claws and teeth of a nightmare beast are sought after as the source of excellent weaponry and rumors persist that its horns can be used as the ingredient in a paste with powers similar to (but far more potent than) esperweed.
A nightmare beast stands 20 feet tall and is twice as long. It weighs 4,000 pounds.

Combat
Capable of crushing entire armies, a nightmare beast makes for a truly fearsome opponent. It typically chooses its most devastating attacks and unleashes these immediately, seeking to destroy its foes as swiftly as possible. Its large-scale spell-like abilities, such as fireball and chain lightning are favorite opening salvos, followed by attacks that target specific foes, such as psionic disintegrate, psychic crush and enervation. This latter attack is believed by many to be a specialized version of the draconic ability to drain life energy. All of a nightmare beast’s spell-like abilities are accompanied by a defiling radius, and the creature uses this fact to its advantage wherever possible.
The nightmare beast draws its name from its unique version of the nightmare spell. Able to use this ability against both sleeping and waking targets, the nightmare beast often unleashes it on spell casters or psionic manifesters in the middle of combat and then abruptly departs through use of its psionic teleport power. It then returns the next day to devour these targets, who have consequently been unable to recover any spells or psionic power points in the intervening time.
A nightmare beast chooses the disposition and terrain of serious battles wherever possible. As noted above, it uses psionic teleport to come and go freely, conceals its activities and motivations using psionic mind blank and makes use of planar ally to summon creatures from other planes to fight for it or carry out its bidding.
Should it come to melee combat, the nightmare beast rears up on its hind legs and strikes with its slashing foreclaws. If these are not sufficient to fell its enemies, it follows up with a powerful bite and seeks to impale its foes on its two curving horns.
Psi-like Abilities: At will – biofeedback (DR 6/-*), danger sense (+4 bonus, improved uncanny dodge*), ego whip (4d4 Cha, DC 18*), id insinuation (7 targets, DC 18*), inflict pain (7 targets, DC 18*), intellect fortress (9 rounds*), matter agitation, mental barrier (+6 AC, 11 rounds*), mind thrust (15d10, DC 18*), psionic blast (6 rounds*), psionic disintegrate (30d6, DC 16*), psionic mind blank, psionic teleport, psychic crush (6d6, DC 15*), telekinetic thrust (500 lb., DC 13*), teleport trigger, thought shield (PR 25, 13 rounds*), tower of iron will (PR 25, 7 rounds*). Manifester level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the nightmare beast’s manifester level.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will – nightmare (DC 15*), planar ally; 3/day – chain lightning (DC 16), cloudkill (DC 15), dispel magic, enervation, fireball (DC 13), incendiary cloud (DC 18), lightning bolt (DC 13), wall of fire. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.†
*The nightmare beast’s version of nightmare can be used freely on targets that are awake as well as those asleep. The nightmare beast does not need to enter a trance to affect a waking target. A waking target suffers the effects of this spell the next time he sleeps. A dispel evil cast on the target of this spell will not stun the nightmare beast. Only a heal spell will remove the effect of the nightmare.
†All of these spell-like abilities use defiling magic and generate a defiling radius. The radius is 5 ft. x equivalent level of the spell-like ability. Creatures except the nightmare beast caught within the defiling radius when the spell-like ability is used experience pain and suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and saves, lasting one round. Plant creatures also suffer 2 hp damage x equivalent level of the spell-like ability. The nightmare beast cannot extend the “casting time” of these abilities in order to boost its caster level, nor do the effects of terrain modifiers apply to these abilities.
Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 27. The save DC is Strength-based.

GW

[Keltest]

Someone familiar with what a pelvis is would not be confused over how many Xykon has, since you can see and count them. Only someone that doesn't know which bone is a pelvis can ask that question to Xykon, presumably thinking it is one of the many bones in the legs, rather than the one at the top.

Edit:

Spoiler: Athasian Nightmate Beast, Recovered from the now-deleted Wizards Forum

Show

Jun 30, 2005 17:15:25

I just started work on the next revision of Terrors of Athas and I figured I'd take a look at doing a conversion of the nightmare beast that was closer to the DS2e version than the one that appears in MM2. Here's a little look at where I am so far - throw any feedback my way

Nightmare Beast, Athasian

Huge Magical Beast (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 15d10+120 (202 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+33
Attack: Claw +23 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 claws +23 melee (2d6+10) and 2 horns +21 melee (2d9+5) and bite +21 melee (6d6+5)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Psi-like abilities, spell-like abilities, trample 2d8+15
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 15/magic, lowlight vision, SR 15
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 14, Con 27, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +15, Jump +14, Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +10
Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Overrun, Multiattack, Power Attack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 16-30 HD (Gargantuan); 31-45 HD (Colossal)


An immense horror on four clawed legs, this titanic beast is covered in a thick, leathery hide of mottled blue and gray. A pair of enormous curving tusks flank jaws that sport teeth the length of shortswords, with canines twice that size. Its eyes blaze with a lurid crimson light and fix you with a gaze that seethes with grim cunning.

A nightmare beast is one of the most feared creatures on the face of Athas. Rumored to have been created in ages past through the use of vile defiler magics, nightmare beasts are intelligent monstrosities possessing powerful psionic and magical abilities. Dominated by their voracious appetites, nightmare beasts divide their time between slumbering in their lairs and roaming the land in destructive orgies of all-devouring hunger.
Once thought to number as many as one hundred, there are now believed to be as few as half a dozen such creatures left in existence on Athas. Nevertheless, the appearance of a nightmare beast spells disaster for any inhabitants in the area as, when it is active, a nightmare beast’s main purpose is to feed itself. When active, a nightmare beast will alternate between resting in its lair for six hours and then hunting for six hours and maintains this cycle of activity for weeks on end. When this alternating cycle is complete, the nightmare beast will return to its lair for as long as a year, before emerging once more to begin the hunting cycle again.
The intelligence possessed by nightmare beasts, coupled with their devastating array of offensive powers, has led many sages to speculate that these creatures were bred for some long-forgotten war. Indeed, when threatened, a nightmare beast displays an uncanny degree of cunning and will often concentrate its powers specifically on those whom it feels have earned its vengeance.
A nightmare beast is omnivorous, and will not shirk from attacking fortified structures in order to reach its prey. Lore has it, however, that a nightmare beast will refrain from attacking drakes, megapedes or dragons. Everything else is fair game.
When slain, a nightmare beast’s body decays at an unnaturally fast rate; it is believed that the magical energies that created it dissipate upon its death, leading to a sudden degeneration of its corpse. The horns, claws and teeth of a nightmare beast are sought after as the source of excellent weaponry and rumors persist that its horns can be used as the ingredient in a paste with powers similar to (but far more potent than) esperweed.
A nightmare beast stands 20 feet tall and is twice as long. It weighs 4,000 pounds.

Combat
Capable of crushing entire armies, a nightmare beast makes for a truly fearsome opponent. It typically chooses its most devastating attacks and unleashes these immediately, seeking to destroy its foes as swiftly as possible. Its large-scale spell-like abilities, such as fireball and chain lightning are favorite opening salvos, followed by attacks that target specific foes, such as psionic disintegrate, psychic crush and enervation. This latter attack is believed by many to be a specialized version of the draconic ability to drain life energy. All of a nightmare beast’s spell-like abilities are accompanied by a defiling radius, and the creature uses this fact to its advantage wherever possible.
The nightmare beast draws its name from its unique version of the nightmare spell. Able to use this ability against both sleeping and waking targets, the nightmare beast often unleashes it on spell casters or psionic manifesters in the middle of combat and then abruptly departs through use of its psionic teleport power. It then returns the next day to devour these targets, who have consequently been unable to recover any spells or psionic power points in the intervening time.
A nightmare beast chooses the disposition and terrain of serious battles wherever possible. As noted above, it uses psionic teleport to come and go freely, conceals its activities and motivations using psionic mind blank and makes use of planar ally to summon creatures from other planes to fight for it or carry out its bidding.
Should it come to melee combat, the nightmare beast rears up on its hind legs and strikes with its slashing foreclaws. If these are not sufficient to fell its enemies, it follows up with a powerful bite and seeks to impale its foes on its two curving horns.
Psi-like Abilities: At will – biofeedback (DR 6/-*), danger sense (+4 bonus, improved uncanny dodge*), ego whip (4d4 Cha, DC 18*), id insinuation (7 targets, DC 18*), inflict pain (7 targets, DC 18*), intellect fortress (9 rounds*), matter agitation, mental barrier (+6 AC, 11 rounds*), mind thrust (15d10, DC 18*), psionic blast (6 rounds*), psionic disintegrate (30d6, DC 16*), psionic mind blank, psionic teleport, psychic crush (6d6, DC 15*), telekinetic thrust (500 lb., DC 13*), teleport trigger, thought shield (PR 25, 13 rounds*), tower of iron will (PR 25, 7 rounds*). Manifester level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
*Includes augmentation for the nightmare beast’s manifester level.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will – nightmare (DC 15*), planar ally; 3/day – chain lightning (DC 16), cloudkill (DC 15), dispel magic, enervation, fireball (DC 13), incendiary cloud (DC 18), lightning bolt (DC 13), wall of fire. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.†
*The nightmare beast’s version of nightmare can be used freely on targets that are awake as well as those asleep. The nightmare beast does not need to enter a trance to affect a waking target. A waking target suffers the effects of this spell the next time he sleeps. A dispel evil cast on the target of this spell will not stun the nightmare beast. Only a heal spell will remove the effect of the nightmare.
†All of these spell-like abilities use defiling magic and generate a defiling radius. The radius is 5 ft. x equivalent level of the spell-like ability. Creatures except the nightmare beast caught within the defiling radius when the spell-like ability is used experience pain and suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls, skill checks and saves, lasting one round. Plant creatures also suffer 2 hp damage x equivalent level of the spell-like ability. The nightmare beast cannot extend the “casting time” of these abilities in order to boost its caster level, nor do the effects of terrain modifiers apply to these abilities.
Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 27. The save DC is Strength-based.

GW

Well, not to be nit-picky, but not only has the MITD demonstrated an incredibly capacity for overlooking the obvious, but Xykon wears a robe most of the time. I don't think its particularly likely that the MITD asked that because he has multiple pelvises and therefore assumes everyone does, but it is not impossible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, not to be nit-picky, but not only has the MITD demonstrated an incredibly capacity for overlooking the obvious, but Xykon wears a robe most of the time. I don't think its particularly likely that the MITD asked that because he has multiple pelvises and therefore assumes everyone does, but it is not impossible.

OK, then the following argument also applies: how would MitD know how many pelvises he has, given he doesn't know what he is? Any argument based around the number of legs he has would fail immediately because, robes or not, the number of legs Xykon has is obvious.

GW

[littlebum2002]

Plus the mitd seems to be very childlike. If my 4 year old daughter asked "what pelvis, left or right" I wouldn't assume she doesn't have one, I'd just assume she doesn't know what it is.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah. Especially since even quadrupeds, to my limited understanding, don't have two pelvises. And I'm pretty sure that any reasonable assemblage that had two pelvises would have a front and a back pelvis, not left and right.

[Olinser]

OK, then the following argument also applies: how would MitD know how many pelvises he has, given he doesn't know what he is? Any argument based around the number of legs he has would fail immediately because, robes or not, the number of legs Xykon has is obvious.

GW

That would require the MiTD to make the connection between pelvis and legs.

As mentioned, he has an INCREDIBLE capacity to overlook the obvious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That would require the MiTD to make the connection between pelvis and legs.

As mentioned, he has an INCREDIBLE capacity to overlook the obvious.

Either I don't follow what you mean, or your post does not address my counterarguments. Would you mind clarifying what you mean? Because I don't see how "overlooking the obvious" translates into "knowing what a pelvis is, and nevertheless expecting Xykon to have a left and right ones".

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

Yeah. Especially since even quadrupeds, to my limited understanding, don't have two pelvises. And I'm pretty sure that any reasonable assemblage that had two pelvises would have a front and a back pelvis, not left and right.

Standard 'real' quadrupeds do indeed have one 'pelvis'.

However, as I've already stated, anything that can shapeshift overrides that completely, and anything with more than four legs is up for debate, as on Earth no vertebrate animal actually HAS more than four legs.

And of course a number of four legged DnD creatures are drawn in such a way as to look like they could have two pelvises.

[Olinser]

Either I don't follow what you mean, or your post does not address my counterarguments. Would you mind clarifying what you mean? Because I don't see how "overlooking the obvious" translates into "knowing what a pelvis is, and nevertheless expecting Xykon to have a left and right ones".

Grey Wolf

Because knowledge of what a pelvis is, and that he himself has two of them, doesn't require him to understand that humans only have one. He has two, so in typical MiTD intellectual incuriosity, simply assumes that they have two and never thought about it.

i.e. he has two pelvises and four legs. But since you can't actually SEE Xykon's (or any other human's) pelvis previous to this strip, MiTD simply doesn't understand that only two legs means Xykon CAN'T have two pelvises. (and at the time the question was asked, MiTD STILL hadn't seen Xykon's lower body because it was blown away)

This applies equally to pretty much ANY internal organ or bone structure not immediately visible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because knowledge of what a pelvis is, and that he himself has two of them, doesn't require him to understand that humans only have one.

Maybe not, but it does require him to have far more knowledge about what MitD is than MitD has.

He has two, so in typical MiTD intellectual incuriosity, simply assumes that they have two and never thought about it.

i.e. he has two pelvises and four legs.

I need an example of at least one D&D monster with a right and left pelvis before I can even take this argument at face value. I have not been able to find one.

But since you can't actually SEE Xykon's (or any other human's) pelvis previous to this strip, MiTD simply doesn't understand that only two legs means Xykon CAN'T have two pelvises. (and at the time the question was asked, MiTD STILL hadn't seen Xykon's lower body because it was blown away)

This applies equally to pretty much ANY internal organ or bone structure not immediately visible.

Your argument requires MitD to be too stupid to be able to count legs, but intelligent enough to know what a pelvis is... even though pelvis is literally defined as the bone at the top of a pair of legs. I don't buy it, even if you were to convince me of everything else, I cannot buy that someone that knows what a pelvis is would fail to notice that a two legged creature can only have one. It simply requires both too much knowledge about pelvises and too little at the same time to accept it.

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

Maybe not, but it does require him to have far more knowledge about what MitD is than MitD has.


I need an example of at least one D&D monster with a right and left pelvis before I can even take this argument at face value. I have not been able to find one.



Your argument requires MitD to be too stupid to be able to count legs, but intelligent enough to know what a pelvis is... even though pelvis is literally defined as the bone at the top of a pair of legs. I don't buy it, even if you were to convince me of everything else, I cannot buy that someone that knows what a pelvis is would fail to notice that a two legged creature can only have one. It simply requires both too much knowledge about pelvises and too little at the same time to accept it.

Grey Wolf

No monster will explicitly have two pelvises, because that's not something that's ever mentioned in monster descriptions. So we're left to look at pictures and extrapolate whether they should or should not have two pelvises.

I've already said that any shapeshifter could have two lower torso and leg assemblies quite easily, along with any artificially created creature - Belkar rode the golem with multiple upper torsos, it would not be a jump to say you could make one with multiple lower torsos.

This includes the Hagunemnon from the major possibilities and any other creature on the list with shapeshifting powers.

The Uvuudaum likewise has an extremely odd lower body structure and could have two pelvises depending on how you interpret its skeleton from an external picture.

Pretty much ANY creature that has arms and 4+ legs could be drawn in such a way as to appear to have two pelvises, and since these creatures don't exist in our world we're left somewhat to imagination of skeletal structure.

If it's a previous edition creature it could be a roving mauler, which has five legs but looks so crazy that who knows WHAT its skeleton includes:

Spoiler

Show

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No monster will explicitly have two pelvises, because that's not something that's ever mentioned in monster descriptions. So we're left to look at pictures and extrapolate whether they should or should not have two pelvises.

I've already said that any shapeshifter could have two lower torso and leg assemblies quite easily, along with any artificially created creature - Belkar rode the golem with multiple upper torsos, it would not be a jump to say you could make one with multiple lower torsos.

This includes the Hagunemnon from the major possibilities and any other creature on the list with shapeshifting powers.

No, it does not. Shapeshifters can only shift into creatures that already exist, and you have failed to find even one example of a creature with left and right pelvises. Furthermore, just because they can turn into this mythical left-right pelvis'ed creature, that doesn't mean they would assume all creatures have two pelvises, unless they were always in that shape. The protean is even less capable than that because it only copies powers, not full bodies. Sure, it might sprout someone's legs for a moment, but then they'll be gone. A protean, even one that is not as ignorant as MitD, would not think he has two pelvises.

But more importantly, your entire argument requires MitD to have advance knowledge of his own biology while utter ignorance of human anatomy, which simply does not match what a shapeshifter would know. Again, you argument relies on MitD having both amazing ignorance and amazing knowledge of the same subject.

The Uvuudaum likewise has an extremely odd lower body structure and could have two pelvises depending on how you interpret its skeleton from an external picture.

Regardless of how I interpret the picture, no interpretation is going to end with a right and left pelvises.

Pretty much ANY creature that has arms and 4+ legs could be drawn in such a way as to appear to have two pelvises, and since these creatures don't exist in our world we're left somewhat to imagination of skeletal structure.

Which is why I specifically asked for one with a right and left pelvises, not a front and back pelvises.

If it's a previous edition creature it could be a roving mauler, which has five legs but looks so crazy that who knows WHAT its skeleton includes:

Spoiler

Show

Looks insectoid to me, so no pelvises at all.

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

No, it does not. Shapeshifters can only shift into creatures that already exist, and you have failed to find even one example of a creature with left and right pelvises. The protean is even less capable than that because it only copies powers, not full bodies.Sure, it might sprout someone's legs for a moment, but then they'll be gone. A protean, even one that is not as ignorant as MitD, would not think he has two pelvises.

But more importantly, your entire argument requires MitD to have advance knowledge of his own biology while utter ignorance of human anatomy, which simply does not match what a shapeshifter would know. Again, you argument relies on MitD having both amazing ignorance and amazing knowledge of the same subject.


Regardless of how I interpret the picture, no interpretation is going to end with a right and left pelvises.

Which is why I specifically asked for one with a right and left pelvises, not a front and back pelvises.



Looks insectoid to me, so no pelvises at all.

Grey Wolf

Knowledge of EXISTENCE does not translate to knowledge of FUNCTION. Knowing what a pelvis is does not require knowing what a pelvis does. Plenty of children learn a lot of things by memorization without any understanding of what they do or any knowledge of how they hook into a skeleton. This applies to organs. Plenty of kids are aware of things like Kidney, Liver, etc, and possibly could recognize them, and have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what function they actually serve.

In fact I had a discussion with a child about a collarbone a few weeks ago. He knew exactly what one was but didn't understand that because his brother had a broken collarbone he had to have his arm in a sling, because his arm wasn't broken.

And I did find one, the roving mauler, but whoops, wrong picture was originally posted - that's a thorcasid, dunno why that was pasted in.

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I'm sure there are more.

Five legs, WEIRD body structure that definitely would include 'left' and 'right' pelvis (with a leg left over to attach... somewhere).

Also, you have COMPLETELY IGNORED my point about artificial creatures. We have been explicitly shown a golem with multiple upper torsos. An artificial creature with multiple lower torsos is 100% possible.

Which also brings shapeshifters back into play. If MiTD saw a golem with two lower torsos, it could shapeshift into it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Knowledge of EXISTENCE does not translate to knowledge of FUNCTION.

But enough knowledge to know you have two of them does require knowledge of what they are, especially if you have, as in your example below, five of pretty much everything else. You once again fail to address the incompatible combination of excellent knowledge and utter ignorance required by your argument.

Knowing what a pelvis is does not require knowing what a pelvis does. Plenty of children learn a lot of things by memorization without any understanding of what they do or any knowledge of how they hook into a skeleton.

So what? MitD doesn't know what he is. Are you telling me he somehow learnt the names and relative positions of every bone of his body, but not what he is in the process, without ever connecting pelvises to legs in the process? That stretches incredulity well past breaking point.

In fact I had a discussion with a child about a collarbone a few weeks ago. He knew exactly what one was but didn't understand that because his brother had a broken collarbone he had to have his arm in a sling, because his arm wasn't broken.

I fail to see how this in any way helps your argument. It sounds like this boy knew how many collarbones he has; just fails to understand the need for immobility.

And I did find one, the roving mauler, but whoops, wrong picture was originally posted - that's a thorcasid, dunno why that was pasted in.

Spoiler

Show

I'm sure there are more.

Five legs, WEIRD body structure that definitely would include 'left' and 'right' pelvis (with a leg left over to attach... somewhere).

That is a very poor example. You only present it as having a left and right (rather than top and bottom, or even a single fully round one with five sockets) because it fits your argument, not because there would be a prima facie reason to think it has two, left and right.

But sure, lets pretend it does only have two, or that you will eventually find a reverse ettin with two bodies but a single head, or whatever, that still doesn't explain why or how MitD would know about pelvises without ever associating it to the number of legs. I simply don't buy this selective stupidity (and selective knowledge) required for your argument.

Edit:

Also, you have COMPLETELY IGNORED my point about artificial creatures. We have been explicitly shown a golem with multiple upper torsos. An artificial creature with multiple lower torsos is 100% possible.

No, I haven't ignored it, I simply missed it. That said, MitD is not artificial, so what you can build is of no relevance to what he is.

Which also brings shapeshifters back into play. If MiTD saw a golem with two lower torsos, it could shapeshift into it.

But as I already said, a knowledgeable shapeshifter would not assume everything has a left and right pelvis, and it would certainly not assume as much from its own anatomy.

Edit 2: Also, I'm done with this argument. We are now clearly going in circles, and you have failed to convince me.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

Edit 2: Also, I'm done with this argument. We are now clearly going in circles, and you have failed to convince me.

Grey Wolf

And if you put one of your pelvises on backwards, walking in circles is exactly what you would do.

Thank you! I'm here all week! Tip your waitstaff!

I'd always assumed MITD was just thinking of a different body part, like a femur or foot or something. Also an outside chance of some conversation he'd had sometime with a conjoined twin in the circus discussing body parts for some reason; or perhaps just overheard a bad joke about one's amorous adventures gone awry - e.g. "and that's how we broke our right pelvis". Not a D&D creature per se, but about the only thing I can think of that could have a right & left pelvis. And now I'm picturing the twins from one of the Addams Family movies.

Huh. I think I just talked myself into a way he could have overheard someone discussing a right and left pelvis without actually knowing what a pelvis is. Of course, this would still say nothing about the MITD itself, but it does mean the question might not have been as stupid as it first seemed.

[Imperii]

No, I haven't ignored it, I simply missed it. That said, MitD is not artificial, so what you can build is of no relevance to what he is.

Grey Wolf

Please forgive me if I have missed a key point, but how is it that we can rule out the possibility that MitD is an artificial creation of some sort?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Please forgive me if I have missed a key point, but how is it that we can rule out the possibility that MitD is an artificial creation of some sort?

Constructs don't sleep and don't enjoy food (some of them can eat, and those can be considered exceptions of sorts, although I have never seen or heard of a construct that desired to eat, even if it can go through the motions of chewing and swallowing. As far as I am aware, none of them sleep).

See Section 2c: Categories for the full list of creature types that MitD can't be, unless they are exceptions.

Grey Wolf