The LA-assignment thread

[LordOfCain]

Finally onto something that may actually have LA!

[Inevitability]

Finally onto something that may actually have LA!

I somehow doubt elves will get a positive LA.

Drow, perhaps.

[LordOfCain]

I somehow doubt elves will get a positive LA.

Drow, perhaps.

That was what I was referring to: seeing as how they are under Elf.

[Daedroth]

I somehow doubt elves will get a positive LA.

Drow, perhaps.

That would be the only one worth a question: Drow LA.

[Inevitability]

Elf

Surprise update!

High Elf

The poor high elf: not only maligned for its constitution penalty, but also subject to various weed-related jokes. That said, +0 LA fits.

No more explanation is required: reviewing player races is boring anyway.

Half-Elf

More sub-par elvish material! You could give those guys a bonus feat and they'd still only be marginally better than humans. That said, +0 LA.

Aquatic Elf

Apparently D&D needs three different aquatic elves: the MM, Unearthed Arcana and Stormwrack all have their own flavor. Not bad for a race that's essentially 'elves, but underwater'. +0 LA.

Drow

Now we're getting somewhere! Right now, drow are at +2 LA, but that seems excessive. The SLA's are either underwhelming or easily obtainable, the SR is a double-edged sword and darkvision is overrated. +1 LA seems like it'd work fine.

Gray Elf

Elves with two extra stat changes: woo-hoo! +0 LA.

Wild Elf

Favored class (like anyone uses those) is sorcerer instead of wizard, stat penalty is intelligence instead of constitution. A slight nerf and a slight boost: +0 LA still applies.

Wood Elf

Just how many subraces did WotC feel the need to include? That said, wood elves are surprisingly nice for melee. Think about it: a dragonborn wood elf has +2 strength, -2 intelligence, access to all juicy elf PrC's and feats and standard dragonborn goodness. I'm surprised it doesn't pop up more often, to be honest.

Also, +0 LA.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe half-elf deserves -0? They are just so ridiculously underwhelming. Not underwhelming enough to get a real negative LA, but "why would you play this?" definitely applies.

[Inevitability]

Maybe half-elf deserves -0? They are just so ridiculously underwhelming. Not underwhelming enough to get a real negative LA, but "why would you play this?" definitely applies.

Well, there's still half-elf-specific ACF's and feats, some of which are actually pretty nice (half-elf bard comes to mind). It makes them niche, but so are many other monsters.

[danielxcutter]

Well, there's still half-elf-specific ACF's and feats, some of which are actually pretty nice (half-elf bard comes to mind). It makes them niche, but so are many other monsters.

The Eternal Blade PrC from Tome of Battle is easiest to get into by a half-elf, as otherwise you'll take multiclassing penalties - since neither Warblade nor Crusader are favored classes of any race and half-elf has Favored class: Any - or jump through a lot of hoops like taking flaws or burning a ton of feats on Martial Study. Unless you don't use favored class rulings at all, that is.

[Efrate]

Also worth noting that half-elves get into eternal blade without a con penalty, which is a big deal for a melee front liner. Some of the elf subraces can as well, but half elf makes it work the best IMO.

[Inevitability]

The Eternal Blade PrC from Tome of Battle is easiest to get into by a half-elf, as otherwise you'll take multiclassing penalties - since neither Warblade nor Crusader are favored classes of any race and half-elf has Favored class: Any - or jump through a lot of hoops like taking flaws or burning a ton of feats on Martial Study. Unless you don't use favored class rulings at all, that is.

How does entering Eternal Blade cause multiclass XP penalties? No multiclassing is required to enter, and PrC's don't count for XP penalties.

[danielxcutter]

How does entering Eternal Blade cause multiclass XP penalties? No multiclassing is required to enter, and PrC's don't count for XP penalties.

Oh yeah, you're right. However, entering it as Warblade/Crusader makes qualifying a bit easier.

[Inevitability]

Oh yeah, you're right. However, entering it as Warblade/Crusader makes qualifying a bit easier.

I fail to see how it does. The prerequisites are:

Base Attack Bonus: +10
Race: Elf
Feats: Weapon Focus (Any)
Martial Maneuvers: Any two Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind maneuvers.

The BAB is equally easy to get no matter if you're playing a warblade, crusader or warblade/crusader. The race is irrelevant to your class, and so is the feat. Finally, all three martial adepts can use DS or DM maneuvers, making it irrelevant which one you are there.

Tell me, what advantage does a warblade/crusader have over a single-classed character?

[danielxcutter]

all three martial adepts can use DS or DM maneuvers, making it irrelevant which one you are there.

Tell me, what advantage does a warblade/crusader have over a single-classed character?

Uh... no? Devoted Spirit is Crusader-only and Diamond Mind is for Warblades and Swordsages. It's not impossible to get in on a single-class chassis, but you'll have to take Martial Study twice. Only Stone Dragon can be taken by all three adepts.

As for advantages, not too many, but you are more flexible and get more maneuvers - maneuvers that are still powerful enough to be useful, since maneuvers known, maximum maneuver level, and initiator level stack with half your HD(round down). Plus, you can use the Warblade manever recovery method to recover Crusader maneuvers, so bonus points there as well.

[zergling.exe]

Uh... no? Devoted Spirit is Crusader-only and Diamond Mind is for Warblades and Swordsages. It's not impossible to get in on a single-class chassis, but you'll have to take Martial Study twice. Only Stone Dragon can be taken by all three adepts.

As for advantages, not too many, but you are more flexible and get more maneuvers - maneuvers that are still powerful enough to be useful, since maneuvers known, maximum maneuver level, and initiator level stack with half your HD(round down). Plus, you can use the Warblade manever recovery method to recover Crusader maneuvers, so bonus points there as well.

It's two of one or the other. You don't need two of both, so neither multiclassing nor martial study are needed.

[danielxcutter]

It's two of one or the other. You don't need two of both, so neither multiclassing nor martial study are needed.

Ah cr*p. Sorry for failing that Spot check, but I could have sworn that I've seen at least one post that said so...

[Inevitability]

Ethereal Filcher

Another for the 'what were they smoking' category, the filcher has a number of... interesting design choices. A single foot would be weird for an ethereal creature, let alone for a material one. If the thing on its torso is its face, then what's that wormlike thing atop its body? Why is an underground creature colored brightly green?

Their appearance aside: filchers aren't exactly strong. The 5 aberration HD suck and there's only three (middling) skills to spend points on. The dexterity bonus is huge, but the intelligence penalty is especially unpleasant on what will probably end up being a skillmonkey. The bite attack is weak, though it shouldn't be hard to convince the DM that filchers can wield weapons, opening up several interesting tactics.

The skill bonuses (+8 to SoH, +4 to Listen and Spot) are pretty large, and Detect Magic at-will has its uses (though of course, a mere 2nd-level warlock can do that and much more). I guess the chief reason for playing a filcher will be Ethereal Jaunt, which turns you ethereal for a round at the time with nearly no actions lost.

Can a viable build be made here? I think the answer is yes. The ability to be ethereal whenever it's not your turn is pretty huge, and the other abilities have at least some use. Still, I think +0 LA is enough.

Next are Ethereal Marauders!

[Flickerdart]

The filcher is tricky - a lot of low-level hazards can be bypassed completely by going ethereal and then making a mad dash through the locks, traps, enemy encounters, and so forth. Imagine a party of ethereal filchers. Hell, they could pilfer all sorts of goods, hide them in the Ethereal, and then come back for them when the heat died down. It really is a shame that their skills are so awful.

[Inevitability]

The filcher is tricky - a lot of low-level hazards can be bypassed completely by going ethereal and then making a mad dash through the locks, traps, enemy encounters, and so forth. Imagine a party of ethereal filchers. Hell, they could pilfer all sorts of goods, hide them in the Ethereal, and then come back for them when the heat died down. It really is a shame that their skills are so awful.

Think that's bad? Wait until you see the next beasties.

[Inevitability]

Ethereal Marauder

More wacky-looking ethereal monsters!

The chassis is quite attractive, with two magical beast RHD. Stat boosts are less great, but still positive overall (+4 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, -4 intelligence). Speed is above average, and NA is not bad.

The bite attack is weak, but that matters little: any self-respecting meleeer would be using a Mouthpick weapon already. Finally, there's the skill bonuses: Spot and Listen are always useful, but Move Silently is useless for a certain reason.

That reason? Ethereal Jaunt. Marauders can shift to the material as a free action, then back to the ethereal as a move action. Amongst other things, this guarantees a surprise round that places you next to an opponent, near-perfect scouting, great puzzle-solving and awesome in-combat defenses.

So what LA to give? If it weren't for Ethereal Jaunt this would be an easy -0, but with it the situation changes. +2 seems best right now, but all alternate perspectives are welcome.

[Flickerdart]

The bite attack is weak, but that matters little: any self-respecting meleeer would be using a Mouthpick weapon already.

Isn't Mouthpick a +1 property? So you'd need an 8000gp weapon, which is hardly achievable at level 3.

[Troacctid]

Turning ethereal at will with action economy like that seems a lot stronger than ECL 3. Imagine what kind of class levels you'd have to have to duplicate that ability.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, I considered +2. Should I change it to that?

[Flickerdart]

Turning ethereal at will with action economy like that seems a lot stronger than ECL 3. Imagine what kind of class levels you'd have to have to duplicate that ability.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge things that way. Instead, you should look at the sort of challenges that such an ability overcomes, and the CR of the threats that are capable of countering such an ability.

I would compare this ability to incorporeality - a lot of threats are unable to do anything against it, it can bypass many obstacles. But unlike incorporeals, this creature can be defeated in combat by readied actions.

[Troacctid]

Compare the blink dog, which is at ECL 5. Etherealness is more powerful than anything they get. I would honestly lean towards +3.

[javcs]

It's useful, sure, but it's not enough to make a swing from the -0 without up to a +2 or more with.

Sure, it can use a Mouthpick weapon ... but the Ethereal Marauder doesn't really have any other viable form of manipulating anything else. Plus, it's going to be lacking magic item slots - it doesn't have forelimbs, which means no bracer or glove slots.

[ImperatorV]

Honestly, it's a bit of a weird creature. I don't see it as being very strong in a typical D&D fight (does damage too slowly, won't contribute to the party much). It completely negates traps and a lot of dungeon delving encounters.

[Troacctid]

+4 Strength is plenty enough to contribute damage as an initiator. Your bite is only 1d6 base, but it still deals 1.5x Strength, and it's not like you're full attacking anyway.

Readied actions aren't a major threat because if they ready an action, you can see them doing nothing on their turn, so you get to just take a free buff round by hanging around an extra turn on the ethereal while your allies punish them for skipping their action. If you have any kind of fast healing, you can even stay there indefinitely to lick your wounds if they ever manage to hit you, so that you're either going down in one round or not at all. Or, blink onto the material and ready an action to blink back to the ethereal if they attack you, while using your swift action to give an ally an extra turn with White Raven Tactics. I dunno. Etherealness is super powerful.

[Thurbane]

It's a craptacular chassis, but I have to agree that etherealness is just too good for ECL. I'd go LA +3 myself, but I could settle for LA +2.

[danielxcutter]

So what would fit this guy? Etheral Jaunt fits some sort of sneaky character, so maybe a Swordsage with Assassin's Stance? Skillmonkey might be difficult with that Int penalty, and Marauders get a bonus to Wis.

[Inevitability]

So what would fit this guy? Etheral Jaunt fits some sort of sneaky character, so maybe a Swordsage with Assassin's Stance? Skillmonkey might be difficult with that Int penalty, and Marauders get a bonus to Wis.

Swordsage seems to be fine. Enough base skill points to get points in the important stuff, abilities that complement blinking (free action shift, swift action boost, standard action maneuver, move action shift), and even some ability synergy.


Also, I changed the LA to +2.