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Thread: Roleplaying Rules
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2017-03-16, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Pretty much everyone agrees that there are limits, and that there are things that are not up to the player.
What some people disagree with, myself included, is that the descriptive text about classes is part of the rules. ad_hoc is saying that it IS part of the rules, and should be respected unless you decide to houserule it.
Like, if an interaction like this were to happen:
-DM: "So, your group enters the capital city. Grunok the Barbarian is starting to feel nervous and uncomfortable as the lively crowd of the market surrounds you..."
-Steve: "What are you talking about? My Barbarian grew up in this city."
-DM: "Your character is a Barbarian, Dave, the rules says that he's feeling uncomfortable."
-Steve: "That's bs. I've got the Criminal background and my backstory was that Grunok grew up in the streets of the capital city. There is no reason for him to feel uncomfortable in a crowd."
-DM: "It's not what the PHB says."
... ad_hoc is saying that the DM is the one in the right.
Thinking that a statement of fact is incorrect is not the same as disagreeing about how much control the players have over their PCs' personalities and thoughts.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-03-16 at 11:41 AM.
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2017-03-16, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
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2017-03-16, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-16, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
You don't see how this:
Is more specific than this:
Really?
ad_hoc, I apologize for assuming knowing your answer. Could you please tell us if you think the DM of my exemple is correct or not?
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2017-03-16, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Yes, really. I dont' see how "your barbarian feels uncomfortable when a crowd surrounds him" is more specific than "your barbarian feels uncomfortable when surrounded by a crowd".
It's a reasonable assumption that I got from reading several of his posts on the subject. However, it's true that I should have presented it as an assumption, and not a certainity.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2017-03-16 at 12:20 PM.
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2017-03-16, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Not everyone does.
This thread was written primarily as a response to 2 ideas.
1) That breaking tropes is the/a primary way to be creative (I have seen this to varying degrees).
2) That everything about a character is up to the player.
I used the improv example to show that not only can you be creative while following the tropes/rules, but that breaking them is not in itself a sign of creativity. In improv it is likely a sign of a lack of creativity (well ability to think quickly on the spot at any rate).
I also made the case that as this is a social group game, your character is up to group consensus. You need to play the same game. This is largely about social etiquette and the like but it is also about everyone having buy-in in the game they are playing.
-DM: "So, your group enters the capital city. Grunok the Barbarian is starting to feel nervous and uncomfortable as the lively crowd of the market surrounds you..."
-Steve: "What are you talking about? My Barbarian grew up in this city."
-DM: "Your character is a Barbarian, Dave, the rules says that he's feeling uncomfortable."
-Steve: "That's bs. I've got the Criminal background and my backstory was that Grunok grew up in the streets of the capital city. There is no reason for him to feel uncomfortable in a crowd."
-DM: "It's not what the PHB says."
... ad_hoc is saying that the DM is the one in the right.
What would I do? I would forbid a barbarian from having a personality trait that says they are at peace when hedged in by crowds. That goes against what it means to be a barbarian.
Also, and this is an aside, you can grow up in a city and still be uncomfortable when around large groups of people. Plenty of people fit this description. I would say it is even fitting for a criminal who grew up on the streets to feel uncomfortable when "hedged in by walls and crowds" as they will have trouble getting away should something happen.
It would be like a Jedi character not believing in the force. Is it possible to play a game like that? Sure. But then, why are you playing a Jedi and why Star Wars? If everyone else at the table has different expectations of who Jedi are, then you're making it less fun for them. And I would argue, ultimately less fun for yourself. Come up with something new, but work within the tropes/archetypes/rules, just like the improv people do.
What do you need to do? That's up to you, but I encourage you to enforce at least some of the tropes and archetypes. I think they are good for the game and ultimately create a more fun and rewarding game for all involved.
Edit: I also agree with Tanarii and BurgerBeast's latest posts. Thanks for those.Last edited by ad_hoc; 2017-03-16 at 12:22 PM.
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2017-03-16, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-16, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
That's the default barbarian.
Groups are free to enforce it or not as they see fit. I would say that it is rude to make a character who goes against the archetypes as described in the PHB without group (or DM as acting voice thereof) consensus.
Asking if it is RAW is asking the wrong question. For example, you could ask whether it is RAW to be allowed to be constantly shouting. The answer is meaningless.
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2017-03-16, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Well, you did say it was a rule to have the barbarian behave like this, so I just wanted to make sure if you meant is as a "the group agreed to do it like that" rule or a "the game works like that" rule (like when the book says how much HP dice each class get, of the other features).
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2017-03-16, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
I'm having trouble with the semantics so when I use 'roleplaying rule' I usually put it in scare quotes like that.
I would describe it as the default expectation. I think there is value in adhering to them, but if you want to deviate anyway, you should get the group's buy-in. I don't think you should have a default assumption that your character can have or do any beliefs/personality/actions you want.
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2017-03-16, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Well, these are different. This is not in any way connected to what we are talking about, but they are different.
"The police officers surround you" is active. It makes "you" the object of an active verb.
"You are surrounded by police officers" might just mean you're in a doughnut shop.
Also, this isn't what I said. I'll leave it the other forum goers to look back at what I wrote and see that this is clearly a straw man (and yes, I've used it properly here). Since you want to play this game, though, I'll humour you. In your example, you specify:
(1) that it is a capital city (not just walls in general)
(2) that the barbarian's name is Grunok
(3) that the Grunok is nervous
(4) that the crowd is lively
(5) that this happens in a market
(6) that Steve is the player of the barbarian
(7) that Grunok grew up in this specific city
(8) that the DM's claim is that the rules "claim that he (Grunok) is feeling uncomfortable" - which is obviously ridiculous
(9) that Grunok has the criminal background
(10) that Grunok's background is that he grew up on the streets of this specific capital city
Those are ten differences. And every one of them is makes your example more specific than the general claim made by ad_hoc.
It's a reasonable assumption that I got from reading several of his posts on the subject. However, it's true that I should have presented it as an assumption, and not a certainity.
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2017-03-16, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
That is because the correct & generally accepted term is generally "fluff", "tropes", and similar. Rather than asking something like "how do I communicate that the descriptive stuff before the various classes like barbarians not being happy with crowds and such should be strictly enforced without deviation?" and getting an answer like "um... sounds kinda bizarre & unpleasant, but something like all fluff is written in stone should do it".... You are instead trying to coin a phrase for something with a name established decades ago & wondering why people don't see it your way.
Perhaps next you could go on to coining new terms for things like cars, trucks, computers & more?Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2017-03-16 at 02:49 PM.
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2017-03-16, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
What you are arguing for is fate style compels, d&d has never had mechanics even remotely similar to those. Charm person/monster could technically sorta do it in older versions, but not with how 5th edition handles it since it just puts the charmer at advantage socially.
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2017-03-16, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
I really don't know how you got that from what I said.
I even addressed him and said that if a player had a concept for a character and the DM said "Hey, that concept is unique and cool, but it's not going to mesh well with this particular group unless I make the whole story all about you. As a DM, I need to try and make sure everyone is having fun. I don't want to take the wind out of your sails because I enjoy your creativity, but could you make a less disruptive character concept?" would be totally fine.
Telling the player mid-game "No, your barbarian character feels uncomfortable when hedged in by walls" when the player does NOT agree is the DM stepping on the player's toes. The PLAYER decides how his/her character feels about such a situation. ad_hoc's assertion that there are "rules that say how your character MUST feel about x, based on class" is completely false. It's not "houseruling" anything to have a barbarian who is comfortable in a city.
A DM who told me "you don't get to decide how your character thinks/feels/acts" is what would make me leave a table. Rejecting a character concept and asking me (nicely) to make a character that meshes better with the rest of the group's dynamic is fine. But that's not what he's advocating. And worse, he's saying everyone else is "deviating from the rules" because HIS way is "the only right way to play by the rules".
I'm pretty easygoing as a DM. ad_hoc seems pretty adversarial and controlling. That's my impression, anyway.
I don't know how else to read "what your character thinks/feels is not up to you" can be read any other way. What a character THINKS and FEELS are things that SHOULD be completely up to the player. Those are internalized responses to the stimuli in the game. And the personality of the character is up to the player who created that character.
It's one thing to say "Hey, in my game, members of the barbarian class only come from primitive, tribal societies, because I want to encourage the default trope of that class, and it's how they fit in to my world". That's actually fine. But a player of a barbarian in such a world may have a different response to being in his first city. Maybe he decides his character is filled with a sense of wonderment at the stone walls, the narrow alleys that create shadows, and the noise of the hustle and bustle of a city. Maybe he is NOT uncomfortable, but curious. The player gets to decide that. There are no rules that give the DM the authority to dictate to the player what their character thinks or feels about a situation, especially when it overrides a player's agency to decide that.
No, I'm arguing against the EXACT WORDS you used.
It's not a "houserule" for a player to decide his barbarian may come from, and be comfortable in, a city. See my samurai example in post 154. Completely within the rules.
A house rule would be something like "everyone gets max hit points at level 2, because I don't want low-level characters to be as fragile". That's deviating from actual RULES (It's also one of the only houserules I use in 5e).
Letting the player decide how they want THEIR CHARACTER to think or feel is not a "houserule".
How is a character's beliefs NOT completely up to the player?
This, yes.
You seem to reject the idea that breaking tropes is EVER a way to be creative. Which is ridiculous.
And everything about a character's PERSONALITY, to include internal factors, such as thoughts, beliefs, feelings ARE entirely up to the player. The rules DON'T say "all barbarians think x".
And your assertion that everyone who doesn't play like such IS a rule is "houseruling changes" is rude, dismissive, and condescending. And that's on you to take responsibility for how you come across.
According to your OPINION.
Not facts.
Your jedi argument is non-sequitur, because not every barbarian MUST be a tribal savage. Jedi have actual class features that result from using the Force. A Force adept could believe that they are tapping into MAGIC, but actually be using the Force, but a Jedi specifically means a member of a specific order.
That is an OPINION, not an objective fact.
They are both claiming you didn't say the words that you said. Words that can be quoted ver batim.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2017-03-16, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
See, I don’t see what is added to the game or people’s fun by that first paragraph. I can’t imagine anyone in a group I’m familiar with caring that much whether the barbarian likes or hates cities, but I do think that a player who is immediately shut down on such a trivial matter could find themselves struggling to have as much enjoyment as they would otherwise have.
It has the potential to create one problem, and combats a problem I have never seen in a group at my table.
The second paragraph I also find interesting. I do appreciate tropes and archetypes. I’m an amateur writer, so of course I do. However, I also know that things become tropes and archetypes because someone did them first.
Merlin and Gandalf are wizards, they existed long before a lot of other characters. In fact, Merlin being significantly older definitely influenced Gandalf.
Harry Dresden is still a wizard, he’s also a bit of Noir Detective. He combines to archetypes and has become something new. And of course, you will agree this is okay, it has to be, that is how literature evolves.
So, if a player came to my table wanting to play Dresden, they are playing something that is new, that combines old archetypes, but has fired their imagination.
Now, Noir detectives are hard to pull off in DnD, detectives in general are hard to pull off, but this concept applies widely. Tropes are good, but they are only as good as they stay useful. I don’t think we should stick to them when we don’t need to or desire to.
I also find this strange. I have not gotten a perfect session 0 yet, I have them, but invariably a lot of things fall through the cracks as I have 4 hours to talk to six people about their characters and help build them some of the time.
However, I have never considered a player making, for example, an AL legal character rude for not running every aspect of it by the rest of the group.
I can’t even imagine the conversation very well. “Why didn’t you tell us you were playing an Amnesiac Warlock instead of a Dr. Faust Warlock. That is so rude man.”
I mean… isn’t that a bit ridiculous? I completely agree talk about your character with the rest of the party, make sure people are on the same page with tone and setting, power level and etiquette like no stealing from the party or no PVP, but going so far as to say someone is rude for making any non-standard decision without having it peer reviewed seems… off.
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2017-03-16, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2017-03-16, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Originally Posted by Lombra
Also, Barbarians are described "as a protector of the people and a leader in times of war." (PHB 46)
So, that might be viewed as akin to a Paladin...except Paladins are all about fighting the good fight against evil, and Barbarians, purely as a class concept, are not.
Originally Posted by JellyPooga
Barbarians are "fierce warriors of primative background" (PHB 45). What you've described is just a Fighter or Rogue.
Originally Posted by mig el pig
It even says so: "Class shapes the way you think about the world and interact with it and your relationship with other people and powers in the multiverse." (PHB 45).
As a rule, Barbarians homelands are from the tundra, jungle, or grasslands where their tribes live and hunt. (PHB 46)
Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai
If it's really no skin off your back, you can do what you want and it's fine, why would you even bother to post?
This all suggests that it really does bother you that your way isn't the right way.
Originally Posted by Naanomi
Originally Posted by ad_hoc
On that basis, I could see a Cleric who is a non-believer, but is basically engaged in a struggle over belief with the Deity who has taken some sort of interest in them.
This would be a very rare bird in the Forgotten Realms (or most other settings) given that interaction with deities and the effects of magic/divine magic are blatantly routine. They'd have to be an extreme, practically irrational, sceptic.
Originally Posted by Tanarii
Originally Posted by Xetheral
Originally Posted by Unoriginal
The class entry literally states: "People of towns and cities take pride in how their civilized ways set them apart from animals...to a barbarian, though, civilization is no virtue.... Barbarians are uncomfortable when hedged in by walls and crowds. They thrive in the wilds of their homelands: the tundra, jungle, or grasslands where their tribes live and hunt." (PHB 46)
Creating an Urchin Barbarian and saying they come from the Big City, love going to hoity toity parties and adore as many people as possible in a room is literally the opposite of what a Barbarian is in D&D. So yeah, if you do that, you're doing it wrong, there's no two ways about it.
You can do it if your DM agrees, and that's fine, but you're wrong. And it's fine, nobody outside your game will care...but if you insist that you're doing it correctly, you're wrong.
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2017-03-16, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-03-16 at 05:55 PM.
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2017-03-16, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
What did I just read? There is a wrong way to play a character? Really? "Barbarian" is just the name of a class, it doesn't imply how you are supposed to play your chatacter. You can be an urchin big guy who's job is the assassin and who's class is the barbarian that uses brute strength to kill his targets. Would you say that he is a barbarian? No he is an assassin, but mechanically he's a barbarian. Now it does depend on the adventure's setting, obviously, but I really can't see why a set of abilities and skills named "class" should determinate your character's behaviour.
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2017-03-16, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Strange that the "can't come from a city and must be uncomfortable in crowds" class feature was left out of the SRD. Someone should let WotC know about that oversight.
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2017-03-16, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
For those advocating 'enforced adherence to class fluff'; how do you handle multiclassing? For example, I have a character that is a rogue/Barbarian (half-orc) whose 'story arc' was an escaped slave doing anything to survive (rogue pirate); who eventually grew to reembrace their childhood heritage (totem Barbarian)... the class fluff between rogue and Barbarian are pretty incompatible though so...? Not an acceptable character in a strong archetype game I guess?
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2017-03-16, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Your DM may be lenient in that regard, but I would not allow such a huge deviation from the concept of the Barbarian class.
How would you feel if my barbarian liked classical music but was otherwise a stereotypical barbarian. Overheard it from a bard the other day. Am I allowed that or is that too civilized? Percussion instruments only?
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2017-03-16, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-16, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
What? Is this a mistake? I'm saying two examples are different. How you went from that to telling me that I am advocating a system that I am not advocating is beyond me. There's no connection at all.
You really do have a problem with taking something that someone says, completely misinterpreting it, and then broadcasting falsehoods about people. You should be more careful.
I don't know how else to read "what your character thinks/feels is not up to you" can be read any other way.
There are limits to the amount of control a player has over his character, period. This is such a minor example of it that I can't figure out why you've picked this sword to fall on.
How is [sic] a character's beliefs NOT completely up to the player?
You want to play a character who believes he is a character in a roleplaying game in my campaign? No. You want to play an evil character in my campaign? No. As soon as you behave in overtly evil ways, or have your alignment magically altered, your character is forfeited. Consider him dead and re-roll. Next! Oh, you don't like it? That's cool. Go play somewhere else.
They are both claiming you didn't say the words that you said. Words that can be quoted ver batim.
@RedMage125:
It's this distinction, identified above by Tanarii, that you keep missing. You should stop writing replies and take some time to really think about this. You have a misconception about either logic or language that is LITERALLY making it impossible for you to understand the opposing view, here, and it's the type of error that will continue to lead to miscommunications in your future.
It has to do with statements in the negative about universals.
If Bob says "I have complete control of my characters thoughts, feelings, and actions" and Sally says "no, you don't," then you need to really think about what this means.
Sally has not said: "Bob, you have zero control over your character's thoughts, feelings, and emotions." Yet you seem to keep making this logical error.
Sally has in fact said: "Bob, there is at least one case in which you do not have complete control over your character's thoughts, feelings, and actions."
Believe me, if you don't sit down and think this through, you're going to have a lot more arguments in your future. You should care, because you'll be wrong.
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2017-03-16, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
Yes, of course, in the same way that there are wrong choices for roleplaying any character. Not every origin or background carries verisimilitudinous for every class.
For starters, I'd switch backgrounds, Pirates aren't slaves, so that doesn't scan at all. If the character was enslaved for a lengthy period of time, escaping and eventually finding their way home whereupon they learned the ways of the warrior, then that would make sense as say an Urchin Rogue (Thief probably) into Totem Warrior.
That being said, someone who values their tribal heritage enough to commit to such a path almost certainly would buy into traditional Barbarian values of the open tundra/plains/jungle, etcetera.
It's not different than say, a Rogue into a Warlock, the switch necessarily must be justified, which is one reason that multiclassing is DM optional.
I said, it doesn't bother me what others do in their games, but in my games Barbarians are Barbarians in the PHB, and street thugs don't fit that motif.
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2017-03-16, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
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2017-03-16, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-16, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
He said it's wrong "in the same way that there are wrong choices for roleplaying any character." He did not say it's wrong in the sense that it is not permitted, RAW. So, no citation needed because his claim isn't predicated on a citation.
What you're implying is like saying that some races can't select some classes or AT (from the PHB only, i know about SCAG's AT) when it's said absolutly nowhere.
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2017-03-16, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roleplaying Rules
I'm going to use some game of thrones examples because as badly as the book to hbo translation was hacked apart, they are good & a significant number of folks here should be at ;least somewhat familiar with it
- Gregor Clegane is unquestionably a barbarian. Dressing him in fancy armor doesn't change the fact that everyone is made uncomfortable when he;s around a said parties with the exception of the sadist Joffrey. His background is probably gladiator/folk hero or something given his history of swinning tournaments.
- His Brother Sandor Clegane is probably a fighter. Like Gregor, he is often kind of not so great at fitting in during those sorts of things; but he is so many orders of magnitude less bad at it that it makes a perfect example. His background is most likely soldier where he learned to hate the knighted Ser's.
- Jaime Lannister is at the other end of the spectrum & unquestionably a noble knight backgrounded fighter
- Brienne of Tarth is likely a noble background paladin of devotion or similar.
- In stark contrast to Gregor, Mance rayder is probably a barbarian with some social skills & a background along the lines of a soldier or possibly noble since I can't recall his hisstory pre-nightwatch.
- Arya Stark is some variant of noble background rogue.
- Tyrion Lannister is most likely a noble background valor bard
- Bran Stark is certainly a druid & most likely either noble, urchin, or some combination as background.
- Rattleshirt/Lord of Bones[/url] is also a druid, but probably something like outlander or something sage-like (almost all of his development never made it out of the books though), but on hbo criminal might be closer
- Ygritte is probably an outlander that might be either ranger or some fighterish blend.
- Hodor is hodor.
- so on & so forth
Every single one of them would fit seamlessly in just about any d&d campaign. The only real change would need to be Tywin & casterly rock are far away/smaller/etc. Once that's done... it doesn't fecking matter if Jaime is somewhere in the line of succession for lordship over a few acres called Casterly Rock & all sorts of fun possabilities can be hooked in there.Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2017-03-16 at 09:33 PM.