The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Inevitability]

Lammasu

I could say lammasus don't look silly, but then I'd be lion.

A lammasu has 7 magical beast RHD. They're large, with stat boosts all around (ranging from +2 to +12) and a natural flight speed. Unlike their animal lookalikes, lammasu do not have a bite attack. They do have Pounce and rake, though.

They also have various supernatural abilities. A permanent Magic Circle Against Evil is obviously positive (I like not being mind controlled), and the same goes for the limited-yet-useful Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door SLAs.

In spite of all this, the lammasus most important feature will always be its cleric casting. It starts at 7th-level, meaning a lammasu will easily be able to attain 9th-level spells. The available domains are kind of sucky, but one can't have anything.

Personally, I think lammasus deserve +2 LA. With their HD and casting they make a great base creature for a melee-focused cleric. Things every melee character needs (flight and pounce) they get for free, not to mention their impressive stat boosts. All that warrants being behind a spell level in my opinion.


...And speaking of spell levels, next up are liches! Stay tuned!

[Metahuman1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Leonals somehow get missed? Or am I just missing them in the guide with 53 pages?

[Tiri]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Leonals somehow get missed? Or am I just missing them in the guide with 53 pages?

They fall under Guardinal, Leonal.

[danielxcutter]

Oooh, can't wait...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lammasu at +2 seems reasonable. Difficult to buy off sadly but you are almost strictly better than cleric at the same HD (the almost is pathetically easy to fix in one level as well). If you do not buy it off though you still get 9th's at 19th, so if you think of this as a PrC that hiccups casting twice it is nice.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Funny how the critters with positive LA's are usually the ones that step on the toes of casters. I'm not sure if that's because it's hard to make a melee-based monster that competes with PCs of equal HD or because casters are just that good.

[Inevitability]

Funny how the critters with positive LA's are usually the ones that step on the toes of casters. I'm not sure if that's because it's hard to make a melee-based monster that competes with PCs of equal HD or because casters are just that good.

There's plenty of non-caster monsters with a positive LA as well, it's just that those who do have casting almost always get one (with the obvious exception of dragons).

[Caelestion]

I could say lammasus don't look silly, but then I'd be lion.

Dad jokes ahoy!

[Segev]

Anything that gets full or near-full casting progression for its HD is likely to wind up with an LA unless it is strictly equal to or less than an existing "PC race." Casting is the go-to for power in this game, and a lot of the reason some pretty awesome monsters wind up with lowered LA is because playing a caster with them is next to impossible. Put another way, it makes little sense to put an LA on a monster which, if you were to play a Sorcerer with its HD in levels, you could do everything it can.

[javcs]

There's plenty of non-caster monsters with a positive LA as well, it's just that those who do have casting almost always get one (with the obvious exception of dragons).

True, but a non-caster monster's generally got to be really truly quite good overall to warrant a positive LA, or have something specific that they get that's really good, which basically turns them into specialists in something already.

On the other hand, since most of the caster classes have relatively little in the way of class features, it's not really that hard for a monster with near-HD casting to be better than a caster of that type with levels equal to HD.

[Inevitability]

Lich

Fun fact: Libris Mortis has a 100% canon adept lich. They even refer to her as 'the weakest lich in existence'. I'm still waiting for a magewright lich, though.

Liches, as I'm sure people know, are rejuvenating spellcasting undead. Becoming one grants small bonuses to all mental stats and a reasonable natural armor bonus. The fear aura all liches have is less interesting, as very little at ECL 11+ will have less than 5 HD.

A lich's touch attack is worth mentioning as well. It deals a small amount of negative energy damage, but also forces a save vs. permanent paralysis. Sadly, there aren't really any first-party ways to use it at range, and for most liches (ignoring the occasional duskblade) melee isn't a good place to be.

Furthermore, liches gain a number of passive bonuses. DR 15/bludgeoning and magic is reasonably nice, cold and electricity immunity are sure to come in handy a few times, and skill bonuses will probably see some use as well. The specific immunity to mind-affecting attacks is weird, though.

Finally, there's the rejuvenation ability. It's a bit unclear how exactly it works, but basically it returns the lich to unlife 1d10 days after its destruction. I don't think this affects the LA: usually a level 11+ party will have ways to return people from death faster, even if they are undead.

I'm considering both +2 and +3 LA here, and think I'll go with +2. Lichdom does grant a number of interesting abilities, but will probably result in a net loss in casting ability (which most people at CL 11 or more are attached to).

Note that becoming a lich is very pricy. Without a way to get that cost down somehow, it may be more like +0, or even -0. Remember, kids, gold is good!

[danielxcutter]

+3 means Sorcerers can't get 9ths, except for the occasional Kobold. Oh, and I believe that Savage Species has an option to trade their fear aura for a non-evil alignment.

Hmm... are there ways to abuse this template that you can't duplicate with Necropolitan?

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are a number of lich variants, some of which may be LA +3, but they're not in the Monster Manual. The vanilla lich is fine at +2. One spell level behind for mental stat boosts, DR, immunities - technically, not that good for a focused optimized caster, but nice for a number of other builds, and can be bought off.

[Celestia]

I'd say -0, actually, but maybe I'm weird. The benefits of the template are almost entirely defensive, and if not dying was a valuable skill, then the monk would be amazing.

But, sure, a lich is purely and objectively better than an equal level living spellcaster. Except for one thing: wealth. That phylactery costs 120,000 gp, which, you may note, is more than a PC even has at level 11, according to WBL. And by the time they finally can afford it, it will literally cost everything they have. So, the real question here is whether or not the benefits of the lich template are equivalent to 120,000 gp in wealth. And that is a resounding NO. Magic items can duplicate almost all the things from this template and then some. A regular spellcaster with money is far stronger than a lich of equal or even higher level.

[Segev]

To be fair, the lich actually is expected to MAKE his phylactery. Doesn't that drop his personal cost to 60k gp for it? Still a lot, of course.

I also wonder, if a lich hid his phylactery in a fast-time demiplane (say one where 1 day there is 1 hour in most of the multiverse), would he come back in 1d10 hours?

Finally, how many times would the lich have to die before his phylactery "paid for itself?" Once, I'd say, if he's alone, but we're talking about in a party. But let's look at raise dead and resurrection. Both bring you back with a level lost. Raise dead brings you back weak and near-helpless, requiring recovery time, which is more analogous to the 1d10 days for the lich.

Raise dead costs 5000 gp. Resurrection costs 10000 gp. If we assume the lich made his own phylactery, that's 6-12 times he'd have to die before it paid for itself.

[Celestia]

To be fair, the lich actually is expected to MAKE his phylactery. Doesn't that drop his personal cost to 60k gp for it? Still a lot, of course.

...No. 120,000 gp is explicitly the cost to make it.

[Segev]

...No. 120,000 gp is explicitly the cost to make it.

Ah, my mistake. Yeah, that's expensive. Maybe part of the "unspeakably evil" act requires lying, cheating, and stealing to get wealth beyond your WBL guidelines? That's definitely touching on being inimical to the laws of D&D---er, nature.

Also, means they need to die 12-24 times to have it pay for itself compared to raise dead or resurrection.


Edit: I know! The lich can use Wall of Salt to create 40,000 gp worth of a single salt block. Then use Craft(sculpture) or (jeweler) or something like that to carve it into a 120,000 gp ornamental item. That surely won't cause the DM to throw books at him!

[Flickerdart]

I could see +2 if the steep GP cost was waived, but with it the lich is -0 for sure. Coming back in 1d10 days is terrible when you consider that high-level magic can not only get you back on your feet with one spell, but can do so as quickly as one round (revivify, for example). Your gaming group can get in 1d10 days of adventure while you fart around the netherworld waiting for your butt to grow back.

[Inevitability]

Well, if a bunch of resurrection spells are better than rejuvenation, why not just sell your phylactery? It's still a magic item of great value, after all.*

Seriously, though, I'll add a note warning about the sheer WBL drop.

*Inevitability is aware that the sole way to use another creature's phylactery is a ritual that involves killing the phylactery's owner. Inevitability is not responsible for any deaths and subsequent reanimations as mindless monsters caused by following this suggestion. You have been warned.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Uh, good call on the phylactery cost, I did not think of that. LA -0 if that is enforced, agreed.

[No brains]

I remember reading that there was some contention as to whether, by RAW, the phylactery actually does anything for the lich. I think it involved where the rejuvenation ability was written, making it a power of the template and not the item. Theoretically the lich might not even need the phylactery to transform and may not even need it ever again after that.

I think this subject was its own thread on gitp and discussing it in this thread may cause derailment, but it's something to consider.

[Inevitability]

I remember reading that there was some contention as to whether, by RAW, the phylactery actually does anything for the lich. I think it involved where the rejuvenation ability was written, making it a power of the template and not the item. Theoretically the lich might not even need the phylactery to transform and may not even need it ever again after that.

I think this subject was its own thread on gitp and discussing it in this thread may cause derailment, but it's something to consider.

Seems pretty clear to me.

An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

To become a lich, you must create a phylactery. Unless the phylactery is destroyed, the lich keeps popping back up.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd say -0, actually, but maybe I'm weird. The benefits of the template are almost entirely defensive, and if not dying was a valuable skill, then the monk would be amazing.
But, sure, a lich is purely and objectively better than an equal level living spellcaster. Except for one thing: wealth. That phylactery costs 120,000 gp, which, you may note, is more than a PC even has at level 11, according to WBL. And by the time they finally can afford it, it will literally cost everything they have. So, the real question here is whether or not the benefits of the lich template are equivalent to 120,000 gp in wealth. And that is a resounding NO. Magic items can duplicate almost all the things from this template and then some. A regular spellcaster with money is far stronger than a lich of equal or even higher level.

If we're comparing the benefits of being a lich to the benefits of comparable gear...120k gold is the same as an amulet of the planes or a robe of eyes. One of those gives free but tricky plane shift, the other gives some useful vision-ey abilities. Alternatively, ~120k could get you a ring of wizardry IV, a djinn ring, a greater metamagic rod of maximization, or a holy avenger. Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template. But maybe I'm just not seeing the best way to use them.
Especially if you can make use of a holy avenger with an undead mage.

[Flickerdart]

Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template.

None of those items require you to become undead, nor do they cost points of level adjustment, in addition to their GP cost.

[javcs]

If we're comparing the benefits of being a lich to the benefits of comparable gear...120k gold is the same as an amulet of the planes or a robe of eyes. One of those gives free but tricky plane shift, the other gives some useful vision-ey abilities. Alternatively, ~120k could get you a ring of wizardry IV, a djinn ring, a greater metamagic rod of maximization, or a holy avenger. Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template. But maybe I'm just not seeing the best way to use them.
Especially if you can make use of a holy avenger with an undead mage.

It's more accurately compared to 240k gold - as in order to be a Lich, you need to be able to craft magic items.

I admit, I'm not entirely sure how much getting the useful stuff out of Lich would cost.

[Segev]

In play, a Robe of Eyes is probably going to be overall more useful than Lichdom. That continual true seeing and all-round vision is amazing.

[Agahnim]

A +5 amulet of natural armor costs 50 000 gp, and a slotless one would cost double that iirc. This leaves 20 000 gp to account for the undead AND additional immunities, rejuvenation, paralysing touch, fear aura, excellent skill bonuses, and mental state increases. The lich's abilities are OBVIOUSLY worth more than the price of a phylactery, at least in terms of money.
Sure it's expensive to blow 120k at once, but who said you had to do it at level 11 ?
Being a lich is worth +0 LA at the very least.

[khadgar567]

you know instead of turning lich you can let someone provide you lot of permanent solars as companion and its more usefull then turning into side role in triller movie

[Caelestion]

you know instead of turning lich you can let someone provide you lot of permanent solars as companion...

A "lot" of permanent solars? That sounds like the same sort of cheese which only flies on a forum and never in an actual game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A +5 amulet of natural armor costs 50 000 gp, and a slotless one would cost double that iirc. This leaves 20 000 gp to account for the undead AND additional immunities, rejuvenation, paralysing touch, fear aura, excellent skill bonuses, and mental state increases. The lich's abilities are OBVIOUSLY worth more than the price of a phylactery, at least in terms of money.
Sure it's expensive to blow 120k at once, but who said you had to do it at level 11 ?
Being a lich is worth +0 LA at the very least.

You're picking out one (supposedly equivalent) magic item, and comparing that to the cost of the phylactery. However, it's not an accurate comparison at all, because a slotless amulet of natural armour +5 is an extremely inefficient way of spending your WBL, at any level, let alone when it means you can get no other items at all. By your comparison, Vow of Poverty would be a good deal (up to level 12-13) if all it did was provide +5 natural armour.

A lich effectively without WBL has no ability to buy scrolls, metamagic rods, expensive material components, and so on. They have no headband of intellect and no belt of battle; they have no cloak of resistance and no +1 proof against transmutation mithril breastplate/buckler. In other words, you're a lot weaker.

I won't contest that if you had to craft all lich abilities separately, it'd require more than 120 000 gp in materials. However, you would solve that by simply not buying lot of those abilities (paralysis, fear, two out of three mental stats, undead type). Instead, you would rely on a Persistent veil of undeath and some skill boosters.