Character Sexuality?

[NecroDancer]

Sexuality in d&d doesn't really matter that much as being gay, lesbian, straight, etc doesn't really affect how you fight the evil lich who wants to steal your soul (who would have thought?).

When it comes to sex and d&d usually (at least for my table) it's used for stupid jokes/stupider innuendos/really-extra-stupid puns and/or mild flirting.

However (at least in 5e) there are canonical gay/lesbian characters (The module Curse of Strahd has a gay paladin sworn to restore the righteousness of his fallen order, it's as awesome as it sounds).

Basically your character can have whatever sexuality you want them to have and no one should shame you for it but just remember the "fade to black" rule.

[Jay R]

I don't deal in anything at the gaming table that's not part of the story we're telling. So most of my characters don't flirt, for the same reason I don't describe showering, washing clothes, or using the bathroom. Yes, of course it happens, but I won't waste other people's time with actions that don't affect them or help drive the plot.

The one great exception occurred when it did drive the plot, by having political effects. But we still did it away from the table. I was playing Ornrandir, a 2e elven mage/thief, given the title of the Earl of Devon by the king. He was an outcast orphan who had only recently formed any attachments to anybody. I had played him as emotionally undeveloped but brilliant. My wife was playing Rowena, a female human wizard, a lady-in-waiting to the queen. She had been in an ivory tower (literally) studying magic since she was a child. She played her as an extreme nerd. The royalty had started leaning on us to make political marriages. In response, we sent the following email to the entire gaming group.

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

Show

A situation has occurred. It will affect the party to some extent, so I guess you should all hear about it. The two of us decided to explain it to you in character, so here it is.

(You may ignore which account this email came from; it was written by the two of us together.)
-----------------------

Rowena has been traveling to Devon Manor regularly to do magical research stuff and help set up the schools there, make scrolls, etc. The next time she visits after a Certain Conversation with the Queen, once she and Ornrandir are alone in the study where they work together on magic, she initiates the following conversation:

Rowena: The Queen tells me I really ought to give some thought to perpetuating magical bloodlines and recommends I consider marrying you.

Ornrandir: I’ve heard similar rumblings. Countess Elanor told me I have to find someone to marry, too. Something about an heir for the county.

Rowena: It is a rational idea. It is just that I have never really considered it before. I have been rather busy learning magic; all that physical stuff seemed so…worldly.

Ornrandir: I certainly know little about it. I’ve never had any family, and I've been an outcast all my life, except for those occasions when the only female I’ve traveled with was Lorelei, the paladin.

Rowena: The gaggle of giggling girls I must spend time with these days seems so focused on the idea.

Ornrandir: I know. Everyone but you is so stupid.

Rowena: I am already spending a lot of time here anyway.

Ornrandir: My servants wouldn’t have to prepare separate rooms for you each time. That would be convenient. And we seem able to get along.

Rowena: After all, we worked well together blasting hundreds of goblins with lightning bolts.

Ornrandir: I enjoyed casting coordinated lightning bolts with you. I’ve never felt so connected to another person before.

Rowena: After that, how difficult could this marriage thing be?

Ornrandir: Love is one of the strongest and most mysterious forces of the universe. Of course, controlling arcane cosmic forces is what wizards do. Maybe we should research a spell for it?

Rowena: As a mage, I will not age as quickly as normals; being elven, you of course will not age at all, so I really do not see why we need to be in a big hurry. And why should I care about being considered – how did she put it? Oh, yes – an "old maid".

Ornrandir: That seems like a meaningless phrase. Everybody becomes old, and an unmarried woman is of course a maid.

Rowena: On the other hand, your life expectancy, given your penchant for getting into trouble, isn’t exactly eternal. [looks him up and down appraisingly] At least if I marry you, you won’t keep getting ripped off by the tailors. You paid far too much for that rag you’re wearing.

Ornrandir: Fine by me. I’d be happy not to have to think about clothes any more.

Rowena: You thought about … that?

Ornrandir: Of course. It has a fleece collar, so I always have the material component for Phantasmal Force, feathers as decorations so I can fly, and several pockets worked into it here for other components. It has two internal pockets for scrolls, this hidden pocket for a dagger, and Lorelei will never figure out where the thieves’ tools are. It's green, for easy concealment in the trees. See? I carefully considered every relevant sartorial issue.

Rowena: I see. Yes, I believe I should take over those decisions. [Pause.] I would prefer to avoid that spectacle that Aduphus went through to marry Lady Stanley. The collective intelligence of her Majesty’s ladies dropped like a stone the instant someone said, “wedding”, and all they could talk about for weeks was fripperies and lace. Why do you think I spent so much time here writing out scrolls?

Ornrandir: Believe me, I understand. Since I developed the gold and mithril mines, all the nobles have been throwing their daughters at me. A year earlier they were offended that I was allowed to carry a weapon, and now they want me to sheathe one in their daughters.

Rowena: So how quickly can we get this over with?

Ornrandir: Well, when they assigned us to go fetch the Prince, we started out on the task immediately. Is the priest available today?

Rowena: I suppose we need to tell the Queen first. She might have an opinion about how it is done. So we are fully agreed about the marriage?

Ornrandir: It does seem like the logical thing to do [says the pointy-eared member of the couple].

Rowena: I’m glad we were able to work this out rationally, without the usual tawdry, emotional mess.

Ornrandir: Of course. We may be the two most intelligent people on the planet. We won’t let maudlin sentimentality distract us from rational analysis.

Rowena: Well, I am glad that that is settled. Now back to important matters - about that scroll we were discussing…

[Segev]

If I found out a member of the group shared homophobic views OOC tbh I would rather leave the group peacefully altogether without making any sort of scene and find a new group. IC as a character thing but I know the person is just playing a role, I wouldn't care so much OOC and probably role with it IC as a cool story angle.

Holding those views OOC doesn't bother me because I can't handle views different from my own so to speak, but because I'm actually gay and would no longer feel welcome in that group enviornment, which is a big part of the experience for me. Because I like to feel like we're friends at the end of the day at the table and look forward to the next session with the people as much as the characters. Which honestly I would rather learn the truth of that early on than find out from an off hand comment latter on when I'm invested in the group/story. Which I have had happened. Thankfully everyone at the table seems to have no issue as far as I can tell (including a father and 15 year old son who laughed when a friend I brought with me mentioned the time I kissed my gf at a pride parade in front of prostestors). Which is why I'm breaching the thought of playing a non straight character in the first place.

The campaign is very story and character driven with a lot of roleplay heavy interactions. In my experience things like character relationships whether they're familial, platonic, or romantic end up in the spotlight at one point or another, and if that last one happens with my character I want to feel secure and true to the character in doing so.

Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

[Penelomeeg]

Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

Im not going to derail anything so this is the last I'll post on this but honestly, the reason I feel this way isn't to censor other people, it's so I don't have to censor myself or anyone else. The thing is even the "i don't really approve of it but whatever" attitude would male the atmosphere notibly less casual and comfortable. Because we talk about our lives and things that happen outside of the game. I don't expect anyone to have to think about whether what they say to me during those moment beyond "oh this is a cool story" within reason, so being in a situation where I have to consider "will telling this story about me and my girlfriend at the park the other day make mitch uncomfortable?" Is yes fairly unwelcoming.

Also this isn't me lashing out or saying this with any anger but more poibting out that whether or not someone drinks isn't really comparable to sexuality. One is a downtime activity that isn't a big part of their life (hopefully) and the other is the nature of the physical and romantic relationships they have through out their lives and determines the people they share it with. A better comparison would be if say you're married or dating someone and your friends mentioned "yeah we don't like her and don't think you should date her, but it's your decision" and you had to have that moment of "consideration" anytime you wanted to tell a story or make a comment involving her vs your friends who can make offhand comments about the same subject without much thought.

It's just my preference as a gamer to not have to worry about that during my escape hobby.

[Penelomeeg]

Sexuality in d&d doesn't really matter that much as being gay, lesbian, straight, etc doesn't really affect how you fight the evil lich who wants to steal your soul (who would have thought?).

When it comes to sex and d&d usually (at least for my table) it's used for stupid jokes/stupider innuendos/really-extra-stupid puns and/or mild flirting.

However (at least in 5e) there are canonical gay/lesbian characters (The module Curse of Strahd has a gay paladin sworn to restore the righteousness of his fallen order, it's as awesome as it sounds).

Basically your character can have whatever sexuality you want them to have and no one should shame you for it but just remember the "fade to black" rule.

Huh I had no idea, I haven't gotten to pkay Strahd yet but that's super cool! But I'm a sucker for paladins so maybe I'm biased.

So far most of the flirting has come from our bard and some shield maiden NPCs who either sparred very vigorously or had a romp with another NPC who travels with our party as our tank...we still haven't been able to figure out which from talking to him. The poor lad has an 8 Int and a 9 Wis.

[The Extinguisher]

Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

I have friends who drink (though I doubt to excess), and I don't particularly approve of it, but it isn't a reason for me to sit in judgment of them.

There's a difference between "neither liking nor approving of your choices in some aspect of your life" and "hating you and thinking you less than human." It is a tragedy to me that so many people feel "unwelcome" just because people don't wholeheartedly support and approve their choices.

I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption. This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.

I don't care if I'm making these people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I won't shut up and pretend to be straight for their backwards sensabilities

[Trampaige]

Then it sounds like you'll only discover troubles that are already there, rather than creating any. Though I'd be careful about the "homophobe" label. One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

This kind of line is typically used by people who are "okay" with it as long as they never have to hear about it, see queer people living their lives, or interact with it in any way. In otherwords, blatant homophobia disgused as the middle ground.

Nobody like that is capable of being a friend to me or actually being accepting. Speaking from a position of privilege to suggest that.

[icefractal]

One need not approve of homosexuality, nor want to have it thrust in their face, to be accepting of people who are homosexual. Even to be friends with them.

Let me be honest - if someone told me: "I don't approve of programmers. All those non-physical jobs are parasites on society. Nothing against you personally, I just think that the world would be better if there weren't any." I would not consider that person my friend.

Nor would - "Oh well of course, playing RPGs at your age makes you a pathetic manchild, but I don't /hate/ you for it. I just think of you like an alcoholic." go over well.

And those are things I could change at any time.

[Segev]

Im not going to derail anything so this is the last I'll post on this but honestly, the reason I feel this way isn't to censor other people, it's so I don't have to censor myself or anyone else. The thing is even the "i don't really approve of it but whatever" attitude would male the atmosphere notibly less casual and comfortable. Because we talk about our lives and things that happen outside of the game. I don't expect anyone to have to think about whether what they say to me during those moment beyond "oh this is a cool story" within reason, so being in a situation where I have to consider "will telling this story about me and my girlfriend at the park the other day make mitch uncomfortable?" Is yes fairly unwelcoming.

Also this isn't me lashing out or saying this with any anger but more poibting out that whether or not someone drinks isn't really comparable to sexuality. One is a downtime activity that isn't a big part of their life (hopefully) and the other is the nature of the physical and romantic relationships they have through out their lives and determines the people they share it with. A better comparison would be if say you're married or dating someone and your friends mentioned "yeah we don't like her and don't think you should date her, but it's your decision" and you had to have that moment of "consideration" anytime you wanted to tell a story or make a comment involving her vs your friends who can make offhand comments about the same subject without much thought.

It's just my preference as a gamer to not have to worry about that during my escape hobby.

That's fine, but honestly, there are dozens of things that make people uncomfortable. It's up to them to determine if it's over a line where they ask it to stop, and then it's a matter of discussion between mature adults to determine if that line is reasonable or the person needs to grow a thicker skin.

Speaking for myself, as long as you're not describing how you and your girlfriend snogged each others' tonsils out, I'd probably take it in stride. (Honestly, if my heterosexual friends who were dating started telling me about their PDAs or other, more intimate details of their sex lives, I'd probably be equally "TMI, guys.")

In short: if "Mitch" is uncomfortable, that's his issue, unless you're really engaging on a level that might, in a work environment, constitute sexual harassment of the "hostile workplace environment" variety. (I...will not go into THAT rant, beyond the irony that some sexual harassment trainings have, by their definitions of "hostile workplace environment," created one for me. Then again, I'm a prude.)

I'm sorry, but my sexuality is neither a choice, nor anyway comparable to alcohol consumption. This "I don't hate you I just think what you're doing is wrong" is a garbage ideology and I have no problem calling people who hold it the homophobes that they are.

I don't care if I'm making these people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable, because I won't shut up and pretend to be straight for their backwards sensabilities

I was picking something I do not engage in as an example. I apologize if it seemed like I was otherwise comparing it. I won't pretend people choose to whom their attracted. People do choose how to act on it, but as long as it's between consenting adults it really isn't my business. Unless they make it my business somehow. I prefer they don't.

I'm not suggesting you should "shut up and pretend to be straight," but everybody has the same right to avoid discomfort you do. Note: the same right. This is where being mature adults and discussing things comes into play, if there's some need to compromise on comfort levels.

I also don't approve of heterosexual relations outside of wedlock, but again, it's usually not my business. Though I do prefer that my social groups not discuss their sexual exploits, as part of my comfort level. (I could pretend it's because I feel victimized by the exclusion, as I am not yet married, but it's really just that it's PRIVATE and not something I want to be dragged to a metaphorical hole in the wall to learn about.)

Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

This kind of line is typically used by people who are "okay" with it as long as they never have to hear about it, see queer people living their lives, or interact with it in any way. In otherwords, blatant homophobia disgused as the middle ground.

Nobody like that is capable of being a friend to me or actually being accepting. Speaking from a position of privilege to suggest that.

Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

You want to live your life and not hide your preferences or relationships, that's fine. I can live and let live. I can even congratulate you on your happiness, if you've found it.

But don't ask me to help you actualize it, because it isn't something in which I want to be involved. Don't demand that I comment favorably on it, nor make it a spectacle and be offended if I don't stop and applaud. (And yes, there ARE those who expect an equivalent of that. They generally want to bear down on those who don't approve of homosexuality and demand that said disapprovers confess it as a sin and repent, rather than just being happy when such people leave them alone.)

Let me be honest - if someone told me: "I don't approve of programmers. All those non-physical jobs are parasites on society. Nothing against you personally, I just think that the world would be better if there weren't any." I would not consider that person my friend. At all.

It's the part I bolded that you have a right to be offended by, and which makes you thinking this person isn't a good friend for you an accurate thing.

Note that nowhere did I say that people of any sexual leaning are "parasites," nor that the world would be better without those individuals.

I happen to think they'd be better off if they weren't gay, but I am not them nor do I think I have any right to force my opinion on them. I don't live their life. I don't actually know, though I have solid reasons for why I believe as I do. If asked for advice, I'd give advice, but if not asked, I won't. Because it isn't my business.

Spoiler: On why thinking somebody might be better if they were (not) X isn't hateful

Show

Consider this: WOULD I be better off if I were right-handed? (I won't be offended if you say "yes" or "no," simply because there are logical reasons to conclude either. Though in a simple "the world is set up for right-handed people" sort of way, it's easier to make the argument for "yes," even though I am quite happy being sinistrous and would not want to change. I suspect that it's similar for people who are happy being gay: objectively, the world has things set up better for you if you're straight, but there are probably gay people who wouldn't "go straight" even if it were an option, because they're happy as they are.)

Similarly, there are people who hate Pathfinder but like RPGs who might be better off if they liked PF, since it would give them more opportunity to engage in their RPG hobby.

For those who think this spoiler is protesting too much, let me say that I wish I didn't feel a need to head off accusations that I hate gays because I think they might be better off if they weren't. But I know how charged this topic is.

Anyway. The sum of it is this: LIVE AND LET LIVE.

[Penelomeeg]

That's fine, but honestly, there are dozens of things that make people uncomfortable. It's up to them to determine if it's over a line where they ask it to stop, and then it's a matter of discussion between mature adults to determine if that line is reasonable or the person needs to grow a thicker skin.

Speaking for myself, as long as you're not describing how you and your girlfriend snogged each others' tonsils out, I'd probably take it in stride. (Honestly, if my heterosexual friends who were dating started telling me about their PDAs or other, more intimate details of their sex lives, I'd probably be equally "TMI, guys.")

In short: if "Mitch" is uncomfortable, that's his issue, unless you're really engaging on a level that might, in a work environment, constitute sexual harassment of the "hostile workplace environment" variety. (I...will not go into THAT rant, beyond the irony that some sexual harassment trainings have, by their definitions of "hostile workplace environment," created one for me. Then again, I'm a prude.)

I was picking something I do not engage in as an example. I apologize if it seemed like I was otherwise comparing it. I won't pretend people choose to whom their attracted. People do choose how to act on it, but as long as it's between consenting adults it really isn't my business. Unless they make it my business somehow. I prefer they don't.

I'm not suggesting you should "shut up and pretend to be straight," but everybody has the same right to avoid discomfort you do. Note: the same right. This is where being mature adults and discussing things comes into play, if there's some need to compromise on comfort levels.

I also don't approve of heterosexual relations outside of wedlock, but again, it's usually not my business. Though I do prefer that my social groups not discuss their sexual exploits, as part of my comfort level. (I could pretend it's because I feel victimized by the exclusion, as I am not yet married, but it's really just that it's PRIVATE and not something I want to be dragged to a metaphorical hole in the wall to learn about.)

Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

You want to live your life and not hide your preferences or relationships, that's fine. I can live and let live. I can even congratulate you on your happiness, if you've found it.

But don't ask me to help you actualize it, because it isn't something in which I want to be involved. Don't demand that I comment favorably on it, nor make it a spectacle and be offended if I don't stop and applaud. (And yes, there ARE those who expect an equivalent of that. They generally want to bear down on those who don't approve of homosexuality and demand that said disapprovers confess it as a sin and repent, rather than just being happy when such people leave them alone.)


It's the part I bolded that you have a right to be offended by, and which makes you thinking this person isn't a good friend for you an accurate thing.

Note that nowhere did I say that people of any sexual leaning are "parasites," nor that the world would be better without those individuals.

I happen to think they'd be better off if they weren't gay, but I am not them nor do I think I have any right to force my opinion on them. I don't live their life. I don't actually know, though I have solid reasons for why I believe as I do. If asked for advice, I'd give advice, but if not asked, I won't. Because it isn't my business.

Spoiler: On why thinking somebody might be better if they were (not) X isn't hateful

Show

Consider this: WOULD I be better off if I were right-handed? (I won't be offended if you say "yes" or "no," simply because there are logical reasons to conclude either. Though in a simple "the world is set up for right-handed people" sort of way, it's easier to make the argument for "yes," even though I am quite happy being sinistrous and would not want to change. I suspect that it's similar for people who are happy being gay: objectively, the world has things set up better for you if you're straight, but there are probably gay people who wouldn't "go straight" even if it were an option, because they're happy as they are.)

Similarly, there are people who hate Pathfinder but like RPGs who might be better off if they liked PF, since it would give them more opportunity to engage in their RPG hobby.

For those who think this spoiler is protesting too much, let me say that I wish I didn't feel a need to head off accusations that I hate gays because I think they might be better off if they weren't. But I know how charged this topic is.

Anyway. The sum of it is this: LIVE AND LET LIVE.

Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

[Segev]

Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

Fair enough. My apologies. I shall not reply on that particular topic any further in this thread.

[2D8HP]

I haven't read most of the posts in this thread so I may be repeating someone, anyway, judging by the "Drow" reference your playing D&D or Pathfinder, but this goes for most other table top role-playing games that I'm familiar with as well:

You're playing "radio improvisation theatre with dice", with occasional interruptions to play a war-game, so if your PC is flirting than you and the DM or another player are improvising the dialog of flirting (or just narrating "I flirt with the waiter/Duchess/Warlord/whatever), and then narration of any resulting shenanigans, so basically it comes down to how comfortable the folks in the room are with that, now I've never witnessed it being much of a problem but.....

they're some tales

(seriously read some of that thread).

[LibraryOgre]

Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

I think it winds up being a conversation for elsewhere, really. Haley is an example of it, but there's certainly a degree of heteronormativity in most media.

In real-life medieval europe, people were painfully conscious of their place in the social ladder. And the church was the major institution of the day. Yet strangely, I've experienced very few PCs who roleplayed such fervent devotion to god, king, and country.

Beneath the window dressing of kings and knights and whatnot, D&D settings are a pastiche of all eras up to and including modern. Focusing on the grittier parts just to be edgy is a pretty solid red flag.

I tend to view D&D and its derivatives as being best understood as a Western. A notionally egalitarian and classless society, that nonetheless reflects some patriarchal and hierarchical biases... In theory, Sharon Stone CAN be the fastest gun fighter in the West, and is theoretically Gene Hackman's social equal, but in reality, her ability is presented as an oddity and he's understood to be higher class than her.

[Nifft]

My rule for sexuality at the table:
- If it's conflict / drama / trouble for the characters, it can stay.
- If it's conflict / drama / trouble for the players, out it goes.


For my own settings, I tend to see the world as having a lot of double-standards.

In specific, adventurers are allowed to break a lot of social rules no matter where they go, because they are powerful, unpredictable, and frankly terrifying. Adventurers can do things which "normal" people could not get away with doing.

This can come up when adventurers are trying to disguise themselves as "normal" people for some reason, or when an adventurer wants to dally with a "normal" -- that sort of thing can ruin the normal person's life after the adventurer leaves. However, it's not impossible to find a retired adventurer or two running an inn or magic item shop or whatever, so it's sometimes possible to have a stray night of fun yet stay "within" your outside-the-rules adventurer caste.

This goes for sexual mores of all kinds, including but not limited to homosexuality and dating outside your species and dating outside your station (the latter of which is generally far more serious since it tends to upset the political and economic status quo).

[The Extinguisher]

Okay while there's some...problematic points and wording in that post, I would like to ask people please not post in reply or quoting. I really don't want a **** storm to come out of this topic.

Yeah okay. I definitely don't want to have these arguments again, so I can respect this. I don't think this the place for it.

Especially cause sexuality is an interesting topic when it comes to gaming and I'd love to be able to actually talk about it.

[Penelomeeg]

Yeah okay. I definitely don't want to have these arguments again, so I can respect this. I don't think this the place for it.

Especially cause sexuality is an interesting topic when it comes to gaming and I'd love to be able to actually talk about it.

I agree on that. Cultural shifts and infouences in the gamong community in general is really interesting these days. Honestly the gaming and "nerd" community has had some great experiences of making me feel welcomed and accepted.

[Koo Rehtorb]

But just be wary of your own feelings on the matter. I recently experienced somebody injecting their preferences into a game and being horrifically offended that my character was naïve and not up on popular real-world identity politics and political correctness. Deliberately injecting something potentially controversial and then being irate that not everybody plays it the way you want them to is uncool.

I see this as being similar to someone making, say, a black character in an RPG. Let's say it's a black character in a real world 21st century Earth setting. Horrible racists exist in this setting. This isn't an excuse to have your character start spewing racial epithets and then hide behind the banner of "It's just what my character would do, man." Someone making a black person isn't "injecting something potentially controversial", and it isn't an excuse to mess with them.

Is it inherently unworkable to have a horrible racist PC? No, but it requires a level of trust from the rest of the group and it's on that player to make sure that everyone's fine with it before they decide to take their character in that direction.

[Segev]

I see this as being similar to someone making, say, a black character in an RPG. Let's say it's a black character in a real world 21st century Earth setting. Horrible racists exist in this setting. This isn't an excuse to have your character start spewing racial epithets and then hide behind the banner of "It's just what my character would do, man." Someone making a black person isn't "injecting something potentially controversial", and it isn't an excuse to mess with them.

Is it inherently unworkable to have a horrible racist PC? No, but it requires a level of trust from the rest of the group and it's on that player to make sure that everyone's fine with it before they decide to take their character in that direction.

Not what the situation was. A uber-masculine character had gotten sex-swapped, and this other player's character made a comment on there being more to being a woman than having boobs. My character naively assumed this character meant that boobs were a secondary sexual characteristic, and said, "You mean he might still have a--! EW!" and took a hard drink. My character was already discomfited by finding the formerly very masculine character's female form rather attractive, and that was just the last straw on his disturbed-o-meter.

The other player was horribly offended that I was making fun of trans- people. Which...a) I wasn't and b) my character wasn't. My character was disturbed by the mental image he'd gotten. And the concept of "identity" never even crossed his mind. (It took me a bit after the other player blew up at me to realize that's what said player had the character getting at by "more to a being a woman than having boobs." I had some guesses, but they were all making me go, "I know this player's too sensitive on these issues to be suggesting it has to do with behavior, so that can't be it..." and so I wasn't about to try to parse it.)

Me, I was just making fun of my character by having him be naïve, and trip over mental images he had not previously encountered and would not have willingly entertained.

[The Extinguisher]

I agree on that. Cultural shifts and infouences in the gamong community in general is really interesting these days. Honestly the gaming and "nerd" community has had some great experiences of making me feel welcomed and accepted.

For sure, but my primary interaction with the broader gaming community has been an experience of hating me, mocking me, fetishising me and overall making me feel awful.

There are lots of good people in the community, and lots of people working hard to make it better, but there are also lots of awful people and they are very loud.

[Scripten]

Not what the situation was. A uber-masculine character had gotten sex-swapped, and this other player's character made a comment on there being more to being a woman than having boobs. My character naively assumed this character meant that boobs were a secondary sexual characteristic, and said, "You mean he might still have a--! EW!" and took a hard drink. My character was already discomfited by finding the formerly very masculine character's female form rather attractive, and that was just the last straw on his disturbed-o-meter.

The other player was horribly offended that I was making fun of trans- people. Which...a) I wasn't and b) my character wasn't. My character was disturbed by the mental image he'd gotten. And the concept of "identity" never even crossed his mind. (It took me a bit after the other player blew up at me to realize that's what said player had the character getting at by "more to a being a woman than having boobs." I had some guesses, but they were all making me go, "I know this player's too sensitive on these issues to be suggesting it has to do with behavior, so that can't be it..." and so I wasn't about to try to parse it.)

Me, I was just making fun of my character by having him be naïve, and trip over mental images he had not previously encountered and would not have willingly entertained.

I can definitely see how this situation would have been read as you(r character) making a joke that was transphobic. I mean, obviously the character in question wasn't trans unless their player had specifically said that they identified as such, but you have to be careful in those situations if you don't want to come off as a tactless jerk. Whether or not you feel that it's warranted, there's a potential that such jokes are going to harm someone else unless you're very clear, which seems not to be the case in the way this example was expressed.

[Penelomeeg]

For sure, but my primary interaction with the broader gaming community has been an experience of hating me, mocking me, fetishising me and overall making me feel awful.

There are lots of good people in the community, and lots of people working hard to make it better, but there are also lots of awful people and they are very loud.

Yeah I've had my share of the same. The fact that I'm non gender conforming and a few shades of queer has lead to some uncomfortable situations. Nevermind when I identified more feminine got flak for being the only girl in the group (dm in a one shot literally had a horny mob chase my 17 y/o character to try and get her to "pay up" on a bet I had to do where I "offered favors" if I lost. Naturally I had her try to leave town without paying up and somehow that guy and his buddies magically knew)

There's however a lot of good and awesome people. My current groups are rather diverse groups. The one I'm introducinf the character this thread about was my first time being in an all male group (with two dudes in their mid 30s, a 15 year old, and then one guy my age) but they're all really nice guys so far and a friend of mine is actually joining us tonight with a new party member :)

[Segev]

I can definitely see how this situation would have been read as you(r character) making a joke that was transphobic. I mean, obviously the character in question wasn't trans unless their player had specifically said that they identified as such, but you have to be careful in those situations if you don't want to come off as a tactless jerk. Whether or not you feel that it's warranted, there's a potential that such jokes are going to harm someone else unless you're very clear, which seems not to be the case in the way this example was expressed.

Given the language chosen by the player, it was a generic proactive defense of potential trans- people, not a personal thing other than that person's personal intolerance of a disapproved view. My refusal to grovel for having done something that, I quote, "You know what you did," (which, until the blow-up went to full flame, I didn't) meant I was a horrific transphobe the likes of which civilized people could not condone being in their group. So this player left.

Given some things that happened in-game earlier in the evening, complete with "oh, no, I'm not upset, just my character is," but which were of a similar flavor of "you should know what you did wrong" in-character, I can't help but wonder, as I look at it now, if somebody wasn't just spoiling for a fight. I don't doubt the offense taken was real, mind. I didn't intend it, and might have apologized that they were offended, though not for having thought playing my character as I did was acceptable. I still do.

Nobody present was actually trans-, in or out of character, except possibly the sex-changed character (not player) who, in this case, was just having an amused reaction to the whole thing. I can see why somebody who was trans- who had difficulties getting a relationship because people aren't into their equipment might be stung by it striking too close to home, but "it strikes too close to home for some" is a "know your audience" thing, not a reason why it should never be portrayed. Otherwise, nothing can ever be discussed, because I can guarantee that, for every possible topic, there's SOMEBODY who will have a personally painful association.

This was a "indignant outrage on a group in general's behalf" thing. And the stretch to get to it, while only a couple of logical leaps, still took a couple of logical leaps to get to it being mockery of anybody but my character.

Yeah I've had my share of the same. The fact that I'm non gender conforming and a few shades of queer has lead to some uncomfortable situations. Nevermind when I identified more feminine got flak for being the only girl in the group (dm in a one shot literally had a horny mob chase my 17 y/o character to try and get her to "pay up" on a bet I had to do where I "offered favors" if I lost. Naturally I had her try to leave town without paying up and somehow that guy and his buddies magically knew)

Now that's just skeevey. It's possible it was meant innocently as consequences of IC actions, but at the least it was bad judgment on the GM's part for not realizing it could be read that way given the player in question.

Also, skeeviness aside, "they magically knew" is just plain awful GMing.

[Honest Tiefling]

Tangential, but am I the only person who's bugged by how Haley does this? A bit because her bi experimenting is safely in her past, where she never so much acknowledges the attractiveness of anyone other than her hetero partner. A bit because Elan never tried saving princes to see how it went, Belkar never made a pretty boy swoon when there were no handy females around, and really I can't remember the last named LGBT+ male character in the strip. Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

1) Haley was clearly shown to be REALLY BAD at being honest with those around her. If she did or did not find others attractive it would not have been shown, and then there's that sliiiiight issue of her probably needing to focus on the world being in a bit of trouble. She may not comment on it now to avoid confusing Elan.

Not to mention, her party mates other then Elan are 1) her occasional roommate who was MARRIED, so that's a no 2) Not one, but TWO sticks in the mud who often tried to stop her from acquiring wealth and 3) Belkar.

2) Elan is so dumb, I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of rescuing princes never would have occurred to him, even if he was the gayest thing around.

3) Belkar is a unrepentant murderer. In a strip where sexuality isn't going to be addressed often or discussed, maaaaybe making him seduce guys would give the wrong message.

4) Haley wanders into dungeons, shoots arrows, travels the world, meets exotic monsters and then kills them for experience. I don't see how bisexuality would make her more 'adventurous', given that she is a literal adventurer. Her lover is also the one who decided to seduce the half-orc ninja and the bandit sorceress, so I think someone else is winning in the 'being adventurous in the bedroom' department.

5) More LGBT+ characters wouldn't be bad, but it might be hard to incorporate it into the dialog given current events.

Anyway, as for the topic, this is going to sound super nit-picky, but that's only because it is: Phrase this carefully! Perhaps I am reading the character's intentions wrong, but it doesn't really seem like you're intending to delve heavily into her sexual preferences terribly, just make some off-hand comments of a quite diverse past. However, I'm pretty sure a LOT of DMs have had issues with people using this as an excuse to hit on other table mates in real life, so I would make it clear you intend to keep things at whatever level you game at, just expand on your character. It might even be worth mentioning that you intend to have your character hit on a character played by someone who did the reverse to you, so you're sure they're fine with it.

[Penelomeeg]

We had our session and it actually came up sooner than we thought. She lightly flirted with the bard and even bought him a drink as thanks for saving her from a fall, and made eyes briefly with an old female friend from her order at the safehouse they went to.

The character came off more playful than anything I think and was pleased with how well it went.

[Mordaedil]

Nice, that reads like you had a good time with it and the others were okay with it.

[Coidzor]

Hold the hell up here.

As opposed to how heterosexuality is shoved in everybody's face?

Many, many people don't enjoy any sexuality getting shoved in their face when they want to slit some orc gizzards.

So this falls rather flat in this context unless a given person is specifically OK with straight sex and romance going on in-game.

Nobody likes the stereotypical dude who either is 13 or who emotionally stopped developing at the age of 13 and goes on about how "if there's any girls there [they] wanna do them."

Bisexuality as a way to make a female seem more adventurous in a way that will never interfere with an existing hetero relationship is a rather annoying trope.

So you want to add non-monogamy or polyamory elements and the potential tensions that lead to a relationship failing if one is poly and the other is monogamous or Haley and Elan just ending up somewhere in the neighbourhood of poly like Nale and Sabine to the plot on top of everything else?

[Mordaedil]

Many, many people don't enjoy any sexuality getting shoved in their face when they want to slit some orc gizzards.

So this falls rather flat in this context unless a given person is specifically OK with straight sex and romance going on in-game.

Nobody likes the stereotypical dude who either is 13 or who emotionally stopped developing at the age of 13 and goes on about how "if there's any girls there [they] wanna do them."

Not that I want the topic to delve into this particular rabbit hole, but I think it's the inclusion of sexuality on a subconscious level, sort of how like everything can have phallic symbolism if you try to look for it hard enough, that we've just been made to accept to the point where we don't see it as anything but just normal behavior. It is just so normal to most of us that we don't see it, pick up on it until someone points it out to us.

[Satinavian]

Personally i have never had any problems with sexual orientations iof PCs. It doesn't come up that often, but if it does, no one bats an eyelid.

It is different for trans PCs, which i can't remember a single one. The main problem here is that gender in the particular fantasy word usually has completely different coonotations than in the real world which means being trans has completely different meaning.
I also remember some problems with some players and some fantasy worlds and nature vs. nurture debates.

But the most questions arose about sex of non-humans. How they differ, how it reflects in heir society. Maybe also if and how mixed pairs of sapients could/would work.

[Boci]

Pff. No, "shoving it in my face" is one of two things:

1) PDAs, which I'm uncomfortable with in general, hetero or homo. But I can avert my attention there.
2) Demands that I celebrate it with them. Shoving it into circumstances where it need not be, with intent to watch for any who dare object so they can be pounced upon for their thoughtcrime and badspeech.

A good test I find for whether or not you are being reasonable or not is to swap "gay" for "black". So "just be careful roleplaying a gay relationship, some might disaprove" becomes "just be careful roleplaying a black relationship, some might dissaprove". You may argue these two things are different, but they aren't, both involve your personal identity.

If you don't want gay or black relationships/flirting at your table, you should probably ban all relationship /flirting, because will rightfully get upset when they are told their their personal identity cannot be expressed bias ingame relationship whilsts others can.

[Jormengand]

And the stretch to get to it, while only a couple of logical leaps, still took a couple of logical leaps to get to it being mockery of anybody but my character.

Dude, you literally went "Woman with penis => eww" and can't fathom how that's offensive to trans people or those with their interests in mind? Are you for real?

I think you have to take a step back if you think that gay people are okay but not if they do anything gay and they'd be better off being straight and they should really be straight but you suppose you'll tolerate them because they can't change, silly gays, oh and also people aren't allowed to get offended about you obviously mocking trans people because you were only doing it in-character, see, so really you were mocking your own character.

Sorry, but this goes past reasonable disagreement territory: You're just being a jerk and saying no-one's allowed to object because it's just your opinion/your character's opinion/what-the-hell-ever. No. Stop that. Stop being horrible to LGBT people, please.

To OP: Have your character's sexuality be whatever you want it to be, and express it how you like so long as you're not doing anything that would be creepy if they were straight. If someone objects, throw 5e PHBs at them until they go away.