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2018-06-15, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Lots of defensive passives is nice, but hardly worthy of positive LA on its own in a system where one failed save negates a thousand effective HP as easily as 1. 1-a-day free trash summon, meh. Offensive abilities and feats built around (and essentially locking the player into) basically the weakest fighting style in D&D, double meh. The only genuinely good feature here is the at-will Dimension Door.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-06-15, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I am on the fence with this guy, I mean I know exactly where to put him and how to use him and the best comparison to the Demon Arrow is a Fighter Archer which can out perform a swift hunter in damage but you have to know exactly what you are doing and start the fight far enough away for that to matter plus that means comparing Demon Archer to T4 which isn't great. Honestly your best bet with this guy is to talk your DM into letting you abuse a couple hank's energy bows then dive right into deepwood sniper and/or cragtop archer. In either case focusing on raining down death before they can reach you. I don't think it is worth trying to work in some sort of magic archer build or added damage, at 10 RHD your already too far along to get a good return on that.
Given the fact that you are already kind of railroaded in I am on the Fence of +0 and +1, sure you compare favorably to a comparable fighter archery build based on using range/range increments but that isn't saying much. The only plus side you have is you can possibly kill the enemy casters before they can see you much less retaliate if you are outdoor adventuring but you are reduced to focusing on rapid shot or many shot in range limited areas. I think I am going with +0 LA you are already going to be an archer with little choices on anything no reason to further penalize you because you are alright at it.
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2018-06-15, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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2018-06-15, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Last edited by Celestia; 2018-06-15 at 11:43 AM.
Princess Celestia's Homebrew Corner
Old classes, new classes, and more!
Thanks to AsteriskAmp for the avatar!
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2018-06-15, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2014
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Any archer sucks vs. Dr, barring hanks energy bow unless you are adding a bunch of dice. You get great survivability, some nifty stuff, and at will dim door which is amazing. You can d door away, then rain death down. Wind wall hurts you but how many typical enemies will have it? Also phasing arrows are a thing any archer should have.
If I'm reading the stat block right a full attack gets you 12/12/12/7/7/7 for 2d6 plus 5 each, using base stats and rapid shot, not counting.if this was a pc with decent wbl and those stat mods on even something like elite array. 12d6 plus 30 isn't bad dpr, and d door lets you get a decent bit of full attacks in.
That is an average of 72 a round. A 10th lvl rogue will have 12/12/7 with rapid shot assuming 22 dex and a plus 1 weapon, for 6d6 plus 1 each. 18d6 plus 3 averages 66 if and only if you can sneak. Also dim door lets an arrow demon make more full attacks likely, and as a standard still can do 4d6 plus 10 with 2 arrows, average 24, vs a rogues 6d6 plus 1 average 23, if they get sneak.
You can assassins stance and dip around for more sneak attack but arrow demon is definitely in combat competetive, though it loses on skill monkey, but it still has a pretty good scout or sneak list. However it's a lot more mobile and has better overall saves and defenses.
Tldr: la + 1 is justified. I think it's a decent plus 1.
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2018-06-15, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- New York
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Last edited by Remuko; 2018-06-15 at 12:53 PM.
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2018-06-15, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
hanks energy bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.a.../ask/20061227a), it also gives you ranged PA they are pretty much the bow of choice for archers especially if you are allowed to customize it...
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2018-06-15, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Although note that it's not universally agreed that Hank's Energy Bow bypasses DR. There isn't any general language in the rules that definitively state how force effects interact with DR and Energy Resistance, and Hank's bow doesn't specifically say it bypasses DR.
I don't know if I'm decided between +0 and +1 for the Arrow Demon.Last edited by Blue Jay; 2018-06-15 at 02:40 PM.
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2018-06-15, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
The A&E version doesn't do this, it's just a Flaming equivalent with the ability to dispel force spells/effects. MiC made a new one at +2 and specifically overcomes DR as well as being force effects, and makes it projectile weapon (bows & crossbows) only. The update to the A&E version is Psychokinetic and only deals 1d4 damage without the dispel effect.
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2018-06-15, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I am not seeing an argument for DR working against force effects, the rules on DR are pretty explicit "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks." Just because Force isn't listed as a choice for resist energy doesn't seem like a particularly good argument either, it isn't an 'energy' type commonly seen being used by monsters and not all force effects cause damage. DR doesn't talk about whether or not it is effective against ability damage and that is a type of damage so should I assume it works against ability damage too? What about desiccation and other exotic energy types, are we to assume DR works on them too because they don't show up as one of the classic five energy types for Resist energy and aren't explicitly mentioned in the description of DR?
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2018-06-15, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-06-15, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Dr doesn't work vs. Energy attacks which is what force is. Fire gets by dr, so does force.
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2018-06-15, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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2018-06-15, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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2018-06-15, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- NYC
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-06-15, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
yes it isn't one of the five energies specifically called out for 'energy damage' hence why I was questioning why there was a debate over whether resist energy would affect it.
But it is a magical 'energy' or 'effect' or what ever you want to call it. So any way you look at it, it is not the physical damage type that comes from a normal weapon or natural attack. Even if you can make it 'weapon like' with spells such as mage's sword in the end it isn't normal physical damage hence why it gets the descriptor of 'force damage'. If it was normal damage that is completely the same as physical weapon damage you wouldn't have an energy/effect/magic descriptor of 'force' attached to the damage caused by it.
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2018-06-15, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Sorry, I didn't mean to start a tangent, but since we're here already... there was a thread on this several months ago, where several of us tried to work it out, but the only consensus we came to was that the rules about how force effects behave are not clearly laid out anywhere. Maybe, if some of us want to discuss this further, we could go back to that thread, or start a new one?
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2018-06-15, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
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- Canada
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Hmm this is a hard one figure out. As I don't think anyone has hard started out it's raw abilities they are:
+10 Str, +8 Dex, +18 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis and +2 Cha. Most of those are between good and amazing then you get +18 Con. +18 Freaking Constitution.
10 Ousider RHD (so d8s for HP, max BaB and saves and 8+int skills). Solid RHD.
Immunity to Electricity and Posion. Solid, DR 10 vs Acid/Cold/Fire, +5 NA and essentially DR 5/- (unless someone has cold iron AND good. Unlikely).
Telepathy 100ft (solid) and at will Dimension door is great for moving about.
Special attacks? Urber Epic Two Weapon Fighting with bows. No really. This guy can duel wield OVERSIZED bows as if they are light weapons AND there is not action cost or BaB cap. He can make TWO attacks as a standard action with this in addition to not being capped to 6 attacks a round like anyone else who two weapon fights. Also is never threatened by firing his bow and can threaten with it as well. These abilities alone are probably worth at least 5 alone so solid "class features".
Also you can stack them with stuff like rapid shot and many shot. Sure that adds up to something like -8 to hit but it's the same trade-off that power attacking does. 4d6+20 damage up to 8 times at level 10 is scary for a full attack.
Very tempting +1 if only because of the insane stat boosts and having essentially a solid stack of pseudo feats. 32PB Could net you a 26/24/30/14/18/12 stat line before level ups/gear/etc. Martial MAD-ness is noting in the face of essentially +YES to your physical stats.
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2018-06-16, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Isn't there a bow that it could use in melee?
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2018-06-16, 02:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I think something being passed over is that the example archer demon isn't TWFing, so you could double the amount of attacks you get. At BAB +11 you get 6 attacks from your main hand, plus another 6 from your off hand. Sure you'd be eating another -4 penalty and have to spend a number of feats on it, but 3 feats for 6 attacks seems bonkers. RAW for this:
when making a full-attack action, it can fire one arrow from each bow for each of its normal iterative attacks
I'd give this a +1 if not a +2 for sheer volume of attacks.
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2018-06-16, 05:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
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- Tokyo, New Jersey
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
I don't know enough about archery to properly rate this, but my impression is that dedicated archer builds are at least somewhat competitive in the damage department, and this guy seems a lot better than the average archer character. Then again, it's being compared mostly to tier 5 or maybe tier 4 classes, so I'm not sure. Seems too good for +0 to me at least, at a glance.
The Hezrou was rated to be 10 RHD +1 (in the post) or +3 (in the archive listing). Not sure which LA is the most recent one, but looking at the Hezrou's nausea aura and juicy spell-likes, the arrow demon should definitely have a lower ECL than that.Last edited by OgresAreCute; 2018-06-16 at 05:29 AM.
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2018-06-16, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Canada
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
While that might be theoretically possible going for Many Shot would just work better and wouldn't be debatable whether or not it works by RAW. I think by RAI it's implied that he already has TWF on steroids to get his extra attacks and IMHO doing double damage per shot > doubling your attacks especially with bows.
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2018-06-16, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Colorado
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Ya the issue is these look great compared to a group that at the low end are tier 5 and on the high end are mid tier 4. As far as adding damage on, sneak attack sucks just because it is a pain to ensure you are getting it especially on a ranged build and you will be sitting nicely in melee range of 30'. Skirmish is a better choice especially since you already have 40' base speed. But again pulling off more than one attack per round plus moving 20' can be hard to pull off plus you are still within 30' of the enemy. Your looking at best at getting +5d6 max bonus damage and will only be able to full attack with the bonus damage if you pull travel devotion shenanigans. So twice per day you can full attack with skirmish without super pumping cha and/or abusing turning; or you might get a few times per day full sneak attacks in; or go range increment sniper and hope the game is mostly outdoors and you can see the enemy far enough in advance to take advantage of it. I am guessing something might be possible with ToB but I am not particularly familiar with those classes and have never heard of anyone talking about ranged initiator builds on any forum so I assume they suck or aren't a thing that works inside the mechanics.
So there are your options, yes you are better at them than a fighter, scout/ranger, or ranged rogue but that puts you at the high end of tier 4 maybe with full optimization low tier 3 due to the fact that you have such better survivability than the comparable rogue or scout build. But that is still not a level where adding +1 la is justified if our balance point is tier 3 this guy is sitting on the low end of it...Last edited by liquidformat; 2018-06-16 at 11:14 AM.
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2018-06-16, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
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- New Jersey, doh.
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Leaning to +1 for T3 balance point, easily +2 in a T4/T5 party. (the latter makes me sad, so fortunately we are not focusing on that)
With rapid shot he's soon to get 8 attacks per round (when he gets +11 BAB), admittedly at +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3. But he will likely have the dex and hopefully magic bows/chained greater magic weapon to make that work.
He's absurdly tough, DR 5/nope, resistances, not terrible +5 NA, 3 good saves and bonuses to all three save stats, plus likely the highest hp in the party, barring rage. (absurd fort save)
Very hard to kill doesn't help an archer base overly much, but its extremely handy on a solo scout. Sadly lacking search/trapfinding, but I'd be asking the DM to drop climb or jump for the former. That not-die/not-fail-saves/very high hp and dimension door at will, he will successfully scout and survive to get back the party. And 100' telepathy he doesn't need to go all the way back.
The only argument I could see for a strong +0 is that archery plain sucks in 3.5. 10-15/slashing or bludgeoning and he gets to watch the fight. Arrows of every material are cheap, how bad really is DR against this archetype at level 11+ in 3.5? I honestly don't know, I've never played or DM'ed an archer in 3.X past early levels.
That's the decider for me. LA +1 if he can reliably dish out damage on those many attacks, +0 if he can't. With a dip or two he fills the scout role quite well, so he's not a damage-only beatstick either.Last edited by Covenant12; 2018-06-16 at 03:29 PM. Reason: bows are in fact damage, not melee.
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2018-06-16, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Arcadia
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
The arrow demon will remain at +1 LA, to strike a balance between those arguing for +0, +1, and +2.
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2018-06-16, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
DR in 3.5 is nowhere near as bad as 3.0, and any Archer/machine gun thrower build needs to find a workaround (and will do so). Fortunately, there are only a few things with more than DR 10, and almost nothing with more than DR 15. A thrower can use Bloodstorm Blade to retrieve a small number of reasonably enchanted weapons, such as Shadowstriking; while an archer has a few enhancements like Force from MIC that make DR a non-issue. As for DR X/- and type specific DR, there is the Sense Weakness feat from Draconomicon, slicing off the first 5 points no matter what for your Focused weapon.
TL;DR The impact of Damage Reduction in 3.5 is way overblown in theoretical builds-by the time you need to regularly deal with more than 5 points worth, any build dealing Hit Point damage will have acceptable workarounds.Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-06-16 at 07:01 PM.
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2018-06-16, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Canada
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Also I have mentioned this before: MANYSHOT. It does help curb DR as an archer especially if you can spring for a Composite bow and have a decent Str score (which an arrow deam does have). Dr 10-15 is uncommon, but if you are dealing 4d6+16 damage minimum it isn't curbing your damage as bad you would think. Most two handed builds that aren't some sort of charger are probably only doing slightly more damage than you in exchange for have half your attacks.
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2018-06-16, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
Well, I would have suggested +1 anyway, so I'm happy that's what was settled on.
I will note that as soon as you start to slap some rider damage like SA/Skirmish it would get silly very fast. Especially with Craven, even if archery and SA isn't exactly the easiest thing to do.
Hell, they have +10 STR. Considering a +2 item is chump change an starting with a 14, you could easily get 2d6+9 to damage on a simple +1 composite bow. That's a nice chunk considering you are shooting 6-8 times a round, as that amounts to 96-122 or so damage from the base damage alone, which is more than competitive.
You have enough wealth for 2 +1 Force bows, too, so DR isn't a problem.
All in all, surprisingly nicely designed, especially when put into the role of a PC. The Dim Door really ties it all together.Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2018-06-16 at 10:00 PM.
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2018-06-16, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- NYC
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
An arrow demon 10/rogue 10 deals 5d6 sneak attack, while a rogue 20 deals 10d6 sneak attack. Having twice as many attacks but half as much rider damage puts you back where you started.
Before level 20, your damage will actually fall short - an arrow demon 10/rogue 5 has only 3d6 SA, while a rogue 15 has 8d6 (more than double).
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2018-06-16, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
How does Manyshot help with DR? Each arrow does 2d6 + 5 before anything else, and each one gets DR tagged separately, so you do 7-17 damage before DR with each arrow. DR 5 cuts that to 2-12 and DR 10 cuts that to 0-7. Manyshot just lets an archer full attack as a standard action while hitting their first attacks with a penalty, and boosting their later attacks. And I'm not sure if Manyshot even works with symmetrical archery.