OOTS #1132 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

Some questions D&D cosmology doesn't really address:

• Where do evil gods hang out? Good gods rule the upper planes, but the lower planes seem to belong to Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords and the General of Gehenna and the like.

FC2 clarifies that plenty of Lawful Evil gods hang out in Hell - there's a place for them called "God Street". The more powerful ones tend to make their homes elsewhere in the Nine Hells - but they are conscious that the devils are the ones in charge of the place.

Plenty of abyssal layers are ruled by CE gods - but the Abyss as a whole is ruled by demons.

Similar principles may apply in the Upper Planes - NG gods might have their own private domains within Elysium, but the guardinals rule Elysium, LG gods have areas in Celestia, but the archons rule Celestia.

[DeliaP]

Gygax cited Moorcock as well as an influence, and he was probably the stronger one. Certainly the original three alignment system bore a strong resemblance to those books.

Nice article (although seemingly written before he and Dave Arneson buried the hatchet, especially wrt question 6!)

[LarsWester]

I wonder why Minrah doesn't have her hammer, since Roy's grandfather had his sword?

Possibly that Roy's grandfather carried his sword in his heart and Minrah only carries her fists.

[KorvinStarmast]

And here I was just thinking it was all some sort of commentary on the self-destructive nature of evil. Silly me.

That too.

Wll, Team Chaos. Back then, Law and Chaos were the two cosmological opposing forces, a conceit taken from the book Three Hearts and Three Lions,

I read that book back in the 70's, and all of Moorcock's books on Elric and Hawkmoon; his take on the Law/Chaos tension on the meta scale was (I think) informed by Anderson's, but he went and did his own thing with it. That leaked into D&D as well. And then we have the Team Law versus Team Chaos illustration in Chainmail, 3rd edition ... which then got narrative treatment in supplement VI during the example combat (Swords and Spells: Chainmail redone to try and fit with D&D's evolution ... kind worked).

Law was the metaphor that reached back to Authurian tropes (in 3H3L) for human and civilized world versus faerie, magic, and the wilderness (and monsters like giants). Chaos was not necessarily evil, but it was necessarily opposed ... (just as the Brits and French were opposed in the 1600's and 1700's without either necessarily being evil or good).
The meta struggle on "which way will the world swing" in 3H3L had an interesting echo in Anderson's novel Operation Chaos, which mixed witchcraft, lycanthropy, some spiritual stuff, and modern war into a neat bit of speculative fiction. (Protagonist is a special operative lycanthrope married to a practicing witch in the army of one country fighting another one ... worth a look if you've not had the chance).

I'd rather they'd left it alone, but I understand why they didn't. Gygax liked writing rules and rule books. He'd been doing so for nearly a decade before D&D finally got published.

[woweedd]

That too. I read that book back in the 70's, and all of Moorcock's books on Elric and Hawkmoon; his take on the Law/Chaos tension on the meta scale was (I think) informed by Anderson's, but he went and did his own thing with it. That leaked into D&D as well. And then we have the Team Law versus Team Chaos illustration in Chainmail, 3rd edition ... which then got narrative treatment in supplement VI during the example combat (Swords and Spells: Chainmail redone to try and fit with D&D's evolution ... kind worked).

Law was the metaphor that reached back to Authurian tropes (in 3H3L) for human and civilized world versus faerie, magic, and the wilderness (and monsters like giants). Chaos was not necessarily evil, but it was necessarily opposed ... (just as the Brits and French were opposed in the 1600's and 1700's without either necessarily being evil or good).
The meta struggle on "which way will the world swing" in 3H3L had an interesting echo in Anderson's novel Operation Chaos, which mixed witchcraft, lycanthropy, some spiritual stuff, and modern war into a neat bit of speculative fiction. (Protagonist is a special operative lycanthrope married to a practicing witch in the army of one country fighting another one ... worth a look if you've not had the chance).

I'd rather they'd left it alone, but I understand why they didn't. Gygax liked writing rules and rule books. He'd been doing so for nearly a decade before D&D finally got published.

Indeed. I'll note, Anderson was also,most likely, the inspiration for D&D's Paladin class.

[KorvinStarmast]

Possibly that Roy's grandfather carried his sword in his heart and Minrah only carries her fists.

Nice, I'd not seen that but now that you say it, the fit is near perfect.

[KorvinStarmast]

Indeed. I'll note, Anderson was also,most likely, the inspiration for D&D's Paladin class.

Indeed, Holger Dansk (Oiger the Dane) was one of Charlemagne's paladins. So was Roland, whose magic sword Durandal was legendary. It was Arthur's Lancelot who healed (IIRC a knight with the touch of his hands in one rendering of those legends. (IIRC, Le Morte d'Artur, Mallory Edit: found it; his healing of Sir Urry). That original game was a big old Stew Pot of ideas and inspirations. Fritz Lieber IMO doesn't get enough credit.

(If you are interested, a brief discussion here of "lay on hands" in Malory ...)

[brian 333]

The 1979 DMG has a list of works which inspired D&D. Moorcock, Lieber, and Anderson feature prominently.

[KorvinStarmast]

The 1979 DMG has a list of works which inspired D&D. Moorcock, Lieber, and Anderson feature prominently.

I was referring to contemporary discussion, but I agree that they did a nice job there in the DMG .... but six years earlier ...

These rules are strictly fantasy. Those wargamers who lack imagination, those who don't care for Burroughs' Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find DUNGEONS and DRAGONS to their taste. But those whose imaginations know no bounds will find that these rules are the answer to their prayers. -snip- E. Gary Gygax 1 November 1973 Tactical Studies Rules Editor Lake Geneva, Wisconsin

One of my favorite green skinned creatures from adventure stories remains Tars Tarkus.

[Moriel64]

Hooray for more afterlife scenes! Though I'm dying to know what's happening in the Old Banquet Hall right now.

Well, it looks like The Giant had the plot all worked out, and is releasing everything quickly, so hopefully we won't have to wait too long to find out.

I think I have my .sig for this forum: Mr. Scruffy Saves The Day!

[Shining Wrath]

Indeed, Holger Dansk (Oiger the Dane) was one of Charlemagne's paladins. So was Roland, whose magic sword Durandal was legendary. It was Arthur's Lancelot who healed (IIRC a fallen opponent in a joust) with the touch of his hands in one rendering of those legends. (IIRC, Le Morte d'Artur, Mallory). That original game was a big old Stew Pot of ideas and inspirations. Fritz Lieber IMO doesn't get enough credit.

I tell people there is no rogue class without the Grey Mouser. The reason rogues had Use Magic Device as a class ability (even in 5e if you're a Thief) is because of the Mouser. Conan's days as a thief, and Robin Hood et al, were nice but not sufficient. Those were some excellent stories, and I liked his treatment of wererats (IIRC the Mouser discovered that the wererat princess had 8 breasts even in human form ).

[KorvinStarmast]

I tell people there is no rogue class without the Grey Mouser. The reason rogues had Use Magic Device as a class ability (even in 5e if you're a Thief) is because of the Mouser. Conan's days as a thief, and Robin Hood et al, were nice but not sufficient. Those were some excellent stories, and I liked his treatment of wererats (IIRC the Mouser discovered that the wererat princess had 8 breasts even in human form ).

Yeah; in Greyhawk, page 4 ...

Thieves of the 3rd level and above are able to read most (80%) languages, so treasure maps can be read and understood by them without recourse to a spell.

Treasure maps used to be a big deal. There were almost a treasure type of their own.

Thieves of the 10th level and above are able to understand magical writings, so any scroll that falls into their hands can be used by them — excluding spells which are clerical in nature.

Surviving to level 10 was the hard part. 1d4 HD ... yoiks. (IIRC 3.5 has thieves at 1d6, like AD&D 1e. )

[Moriel64]

I actually want to see that. Mainly because I think Durkon speaking to Thor face to face might get him to rethink his taste in deity. It would be a great twist if Durkon returned to life, only to need to find a new god asap because he finally realized Thor wasn't worthy of him.

Yes! Banjo finally gets a fully qualified cleric!

[JumboWheat01]

Yeah; in Greyhawk, page 4 ...
Treasure maps used to be a big deal. There were almost a treasure type of their own.
Surviving to level 10 was the hard part. 1d4 HD ... yoiks. (IIRC 3.5 has thieves at 1d6, like AD&D 1e. )

3.5 doesn't, because they aren't thieves then. They're rogues.

But yes, Rogues are at 1d6 in 3.X, and had some extra survivability tricks up their sleeves, such as Evasion (and potentially Improved Evasion,) for a lot of blasts, potentially Slippery Mind for enchantment spells, Use Magic Device working with divine wands and scrolls as well as arcane... Rogues are a surprisingly survivable class, even with their smaller hit dice. Certainly more than what they used to be.

[Kish]

Erythnul already filled that niche though.

It would probably be more accurate to say that 3e moved Gruumsh to Chaotic Evil because it moved orcs from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil.

OK, so what stops the good guys from attacking while Evil is involved in their civil war? Is there an Eternal Council of Elrond, where the Good angels just spend their lives shouting at each other about the best course of action?

Grey Wolf

Because the fiends in the Blood War are something you won't find anywhere else in the multiverse: evil-aligned fiends who are doing nothing to hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it. Attempting to convince them that celestials are their common enemy would run a dangerous risk of succeeding.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

the fiends in the Blood War are something you won't find anywhere else in the multiverse: evil-aligned fiends who are doing nothing to hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it.

Wait, wouldn't that description also apply to demons torturing sinners, not just to the ones in the uncivil war?

GW

[hamishspence]

Given BoED's "Torture is an evil act, no matter how "deserving" the victim" - the torturers of sinners don't qualify the way Blood War fighters do.

[Keltest]

Wait, wouldn't that description also apply to demons torturing sinners, not just to the ones in the uncivil war?

GW

Only if you assume that the sinners are all deserving of the torture theyre getting and that the torturers don't go and encourage people to sin so that they have more victims.

[KorvinStarmast]

It would probably be more accurate to say that 3e moved Gruumsh to Chaotic Evil because it moved orcs from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil.

Orcs were originally Chaotic or Neutral; Goblins Chaotic. Dragons and Minotaurs: Chaotic and Neutral. Ogres: Chaos or Neutral. Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Kobolds: Chaotic.

It's interesting to see how things have moved about since then ... and some interesting implications for Golden dragons.
The only types on all three alignments were humans and lycanthropes.

Only if you assume that the sinners are all deserving of the torture they're getting and that the torturers don't go and encourage people to sin so that they have more victims.

I am guessing that torturers are motivated to keep their supply of fresh victims flowing in.

[Moriel64]

1) puts an allosaurus in its place as a walking throw pillow
2) deigned to not eat the talking bird (the bird using a wand was convincing)
3a) owned a human ruler of a city with obedient paladins to keep the litter box clean
3b) now owns a sexy shoeless god of war
4) callously eviscerates commoners
5) kicked a wolf's ass

This seems like pretty much a cat fantasy. (Granted: eating the bird might have been nice.)

I know it's my cats' fantasy.

[Shining Wrath]

Only if you assume that the sinners are all deserving of the torture theyre getting and that the torturers don't go and encourage people to sin so that they have more victims.

Lemures and Manes and Dretches aren't just victims, they are raw materials and cannon fodder for the war. So far as is known, there are no equivalents on the Upper Planes.

Placing evil creatures of godlike power in a situation where recruiting more souls to their side is how they deal with an existential threat does not lead to happy results for most mortals.

[Kish]

Wait, wouldn't that description also apply to demons torturing sinners, not just to the ones in the uncivil war?

GW

That question, I think, goes dangerous real-world religion places. I would say no, but I fear I can't clarify.

[Ironsmith]

Some questions D&D cosmology doesn't really address:

• Where do evil gods hang out? Good gods rule the upper planes, but the lower planes seem to belong to Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords and the General of Gehenna and the like.
• Why aren't other planes at war? Does Mechanus not think other planes need Order? Does Limbo not think other planes need Freedom?
• The LN Githzerai have made their home in CN Limbo. Are there any other Outer Planes with colonies of living creatures?
• Why not conquer parts of the Outlands? Surely the demonic forces could bypass devilish defenses along the River Styx, somewhat like German forces going through Belgium in either of the world wars to flank the French.
• Is the Lady of Pain so powerful that even a consortium of like-aligned gods couldn't capture Sigil? Is she really more powerful than all the Lawful X gods put together, or X Good, or ...?

Most of this can be inferred, thankfully;

-Where do evil gods hang out? Good gods rule the upper planes, but the lower planes seem to belong to Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords and the General of Gehenna and the like.

I seem to recall that most gods have a demiplane somewhere with their name on them. Failing that, there's always the possibility that they somehow coexist with the Good gods in the upper planes (in much the same way Ares and Zeus would both be on Olympus, despite having very different ideals) or that they might still have bases of operation in the lower planes and demons/devils/daemons are still subservient to them (in much the same way celestials, angels and archons are subservient to the Good gods), or at least know when to get the hell (heh) out of the way.

-Why aren't other planes at war? Does Mechanus not think other planes need Order? Does Limbo not think other planes need Freedom?

I don't think this is ever stated anywhere... it's entirely possible other planes are at war, but not on the scale the Blood War exists on. Either that, or the Evil planes are the only ones that are totally intolerant of each other's existence; Good-aligned outsiders can allow each other dominion without much fuss, and Lawful-Chaotic outsiders fall into line easily and know when they're outmatched, respectively.

-The LN Githzerai have made their home in CN Limbo. Are there any other Outer Planes with colonies of living creatures?

Pandemonium is pretty much exclusively inhabited by non-natives. Beyond that... yeah, probably still, especially since Plane Shift is an accessible spell to mid-level clerics and high-level wizards/sorcerers.

-Why not conquer parts of the Outlands? Surely the demonic forces could bypass devilish defenses along the River Styx, somewhat like German forces going through Belgium in either of the world wars to flank the French.

The Spire would be a large obstacle to that, as it nullifies magical powers the closer you get to it. There's also the fact that the Outlands are a meeting place for all kinds of outsiders. Sure, the demon army could probably take on a devil army that had the same idea, but can they take on a force of angels, slaadi and modrons, as well?

-Is the Lady of Pain so powerful that even a consortium of like-aligned gods couldn't capture Sigil? Is she really more powerful than all the Lawful X gods put together, or X Good, or ...?

She doesn't need to be more powerful than all gods of X alignment; she just needs to be strong enough to be a kingmaker. That is to say, if you commit the resources to taking down the Lady of Pain, you won't have enough to deal with the rest of your enemies, and you'll have destroyed a buffer holding them back in the meantime. Plus, again, Sigil is located on a spire that removes magic powers, including those of deities... an army of gods and an army of high-level fighters are roughly equivalent if they fight on her home turf, whereas she is still a remarkably high-ranking goddess. This is not a good scenario to be in.

[archon_huskie]

In my games, I would answer these questions as the Good aligned planes are not at war with each other BECAUSE they are Good. The Evil Aligned Planes are at war with each other and with the Good Aligned planes BECAUSE they are Evil. So Good can work together with other Good, but Evil cannot work together with other Evil.

That leaves the question, "Why hasn't Good taken over yet? And for that I leave open ended. Perhaps Good knows that defeating one of the Evil planes will result in a weakened Good side that is open to attack from the remaining two Evil side. Perhaps upsetting one Evil plan will lead to the three Neutral Planes bolstering the Evil. Or perhaps Good knows that ultimately they will be victorious ultimately, like in Narnia and the magic from before time dawned. The motivations and methodology of supernatural divine beings should be beyond the understanding of even the wisest PC.

[hamishspence]

In my games, I would answer these questions as the Good aligned planes are not at war with each other BECAUSE they are Good. The Evil Aligned Planes are at war with each other and with the Good Aligned planes BECAUSE they are Evil. So Good can work together with other Good, but Evil cannot work together with other Evil.

That's pretty much how BOED handles the Upper Planes at least.

[Lethologica]

The IFCC has something to say about that in both directions. On the one hand, they are themselves a commission of cooperation between competing factions of evil from the lower planes. Evil can work with other evil. On the other hand, in their words, evil isn't one big happy famiily. What they want is destructive, unnecessary conflict, and that may well include conflict on the lower planes.

It's like that xkcd comic about standards. You have fourteen competing factions. You try to resolve things by bringing competing factions together under one banner. Result: you have fifteen competing factions.

[Jasdoif]

The IFCC has something to say about that in both directions. On the one hand, they are themselves a commission of cooperation between competing factions of evil from the lower planes. Evil can work with other evil. On the other hand, in their words, evil isn't one big happy famiily. What they want is destructive, unnecessary conflict, and that may well include conflict on the lower planes.

They want destructive, unnecessary conflict...for Xykon and the Order of the Stick. Based on them saying that's what "has held the fiendish races back for all these millennia", I rather doubt that's what they want for the lower planes.

[Calemyr]

They want destructive, unnecessary conflict...for Xykon and the Order of the Stick. Based on them saying that's what "has held the fiendish races back for all these millennia", I rather doubt that's what they want for the lower planes.

Or it could simply be that they want it for themselves. Cooperation is an effective and powerful tool, but doubly so when every rival and enemy you have is mired in strife.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Minrah right outta nowhere in panel four should become a meme, or at least be photo-shopped into other images so she looks like she's punching random things.

[Goblin_Priest]

In my games, I would answer these questions as the Good aligned planes are not at war with each other BECAUSE they are Good. The Evil Aligned Planes are at war with each other and with the Good Aligned planes BECAUSE they are Evil. So Good can work together with other Good, but Evil cannot work together with other Evil.

That leaves the question, "Why hasn't Good taken over yet? And for that I leave open ended. Perhaps Good knows that defeating one of the Evil planes will result in a weakened Good side that is open to attack from the remaining two Evil side. Perhaps upsetting one Evil plan will lead to the three Neutral Planes bolstering the Evil. Or perhaps Good knows that ultimately they will be victorious ultimately, like in Narnia and the magic from before time dawned. The motivations and methodology of supernatural divine beings should be beyond the understanding of even the wisest PC.

Well, Good is typically pictured as the besieged. Maybe it doesn't make any tactical sense to try to invade the evil planes. Maybe they know it's impossible to win and wouldn't give any benefit, and that the costs of doing so far outweigh the gains. Limiting themselves to defending themselves might be both the moral and tactical best course of action.

The evil planes, on the other hand, tend to completely disregard the welfare of their minions, and thus the ends more often justify the means, even if the ends are impossible to achieve.