I think there can be trans characters

[hamishspence]

He's done some great things, but he's far from finished as a writer. He's already expressed interest in writing trans characters in a future work. He's onboard. The question is 'is it too late for OOTS.'. I don't believe it is.

I agree that keeping up the effort is ideal.

[Larrx]

its pretty disappointing (but not surprising) to see a bunch of people dogpilling on trans people in this thread.

like we dont need you to repeatedly list all the reasons why there shouldnt be a trans character in the comic. no trans characters is the default of basically all media, no one needs to defend it.

also, Larrx, i agree that joke is super brutal. Unintended transphobia is still transphobia, and still hurts. Just because the character wasnt literally trans doesnt mean its not a hurtful joke that is based in ideology that causes trans people harm

./biggesthug

Thanks Ex. I can call you Ex, right? We're buddies, right? Yeah we are.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have to say, I never made the connection between the lizardfolk and trans people either. I can see where you're coming from, at least, but I really don't think Rich meant it that way or that it should be read that way.

Yea, same.

Many video games tend to "mammilify" what would otherwise be reptilian species. Because "sexy sells", I guess? Always seemed off to me... let the reptiles be reptiles.

[The Extinguisher]

./biggesthug

Thanks Ex. I can call you Ex, right? We're buddies, right? Yeah we are.

Exti is the more common abbreviation but yeah thats absolutely cool :3 im always happy to have more buddies

[Larrx]

yeah, that's a valid interpretation, and you're valid for being upset by it. I didn't mean to dogpile on you when I posted, nobody else had. sorry.

Wierdly, the dogpiling hasn't been anywhere near as bad as I'm used to. This is a pretty decent place for discussion. So no apology needed, but I accept it anyway.

And thankyou.

[hamishspence]

It might be because of the Andi period - with people taking offence to Andi's portrayal and calling it "engineer-bashing" - that I was a little doubtful that the offended reaction was justified.


However, I must admit that I'm not especially good at judging when being offended is called for, and when it isn't.

[Peelee]

It might be because of the Andi period - with people taking offence to Andi's portrayal and calling it "engineer-bashing" - that I was a little doubtful that the offended reaction was justified.

I loved the Andi arc, but I don't at all miss the forums during the Andi arc.

However, I must admit that I'm not especially good at judging when being offended is called for, and when it isn't.

Same. I usually try to stay out of it. I need to be better at staying out of it.

[Larrx]

Yea, same.

Many video games tend to "mammilify" what would otherwise be reptilian species. Because "sexy sells", I guess? Always seemed off to me... let the reptiles be reptiles.

And I know that. I've read 'Go Make Me a Sandwich' cover to cover, I get how females are objectified to a silly extant in the tt(and computer)RPG world. The Giant has made that exact joke many times. Every time Hayley shops for new gear it comes up. Other times too. Those jokes follow a similar format though. The clothing is very impractical, it inexplicably is effective regardless, and while the men are clearly ridiculed for enjoying it they enjoy it nonetheless.

It a fun joke. The mammalian-sexy non-mammalians is the same joke.

The joke I referenced is not that. It's a different joke.

Teasing women for conforming to sexist norms, and poking fun at men for enjoying it is different, fundamentaly, than male disgust of a "fake" women.

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

The second joke is a different thing.

[ArkenBrony]

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

The second joke is a different thing.

that's a really good point. huh...

[hamishspence]

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

It could just as easily be a reference to "furries".

[Worldsong]

It could just as easily be a reference to "furries".

Is it my turn to get offended then?

[hamishspence]

The point being that we don't know what The Giant intended - we can only guess.

[Worldsong]

The point being that we don't know what The Giant intended - we can only guess.

I know, my previous comment was meant to sound witty.

[ArkenBrony]

I don’t think the point is about what the intention is, the point is that it very easily can be read in a specific way that is offensive. However, the point of this thread is not to argue over that, it’s to say that it’s totally cool if he were to include trans characters into the story

[hamishspence]

Agreed. The "introduced as casually as possible" approach, done with Bandana, might be a good precedent.

[Larrx]

Agreed. The "introduced as casually as possible" approach, done with Bandana, might be a good precedent.

I think so too.

[The Giant]

He did included a new trans character after the belt! It was also gross (676, first panel, look at Roy's expression of disgust.

When trans characters are treated with disgust (see above), or viewed as unnatural (check when Durkon confronts Roy about his pleasure about reforging his sword), or are the butt of gendered jokes (Thanks Hayley!, belt/hotel incedent) there is . . . pain.

Not enough to make me stop reading. I still love the Giant, but he's right when he acknowledges that he's made some . . . errors.

I actually think he needs to address this. I don't need an apology from the Giant, we already have that, but I would honestly like the team to meet a trans char who is source of neither vomit nor ridicule, and that the protagonists reflect on that for . . . I don't know . . . a panel? Is that too much to ask?

The joke in that panel is that the 4th Edition of D&D had recently introduced a draconic race called Dragonborn, and the art for that race had female with prominent breasts. The lizardfolk in my world, however, do not have breasts. I wanted to make a joke about how stupid it was to have the art that way without changing the actual portrayal of reptilian races in my world, so I came up with the idea of a female lizardfolk who was trying to use plastic surgery to "keep up" with the latest trends. It is not a trans gender individual at all (because it is a cis-female), and it never occurred to me that anyone would see it that way. I do not spend much time thinking about or being exposed to things like the plight of transgender sex workers, so I just didn't see any other parallel to anything in the real world. It was a dumb joke about D&D, and if there was any larger point, it was about the trend of (mostly male) artists needlessly injecting stereotypical sexual characteristics into things that wouldn't logically have them.

However, all of that explanation doesn't really matter, because some of you read it differently and were upset by it. It's my job to know how my jokes are going to land, and if I can't predict (within reason) how people are going to take something, then I shouldn't be joking about it in the first place. It's my responsibility to make sure my comic isn't hurting anyone. I apologize without reservation for any pain I may have caused anyone, even after all this time, for a joke that was not intended in that way at all.

But this thread has also proven beyond any doubt I might have had that I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics. That sometimes I can't see parallels with real world issues until someone smacks me in the face with them, nine years later. That the people here claiming that surely I am a good enough author to be capable of writing trans characters with proper deference are, in fact, highly deluded about my general skill level.

I suppose the imagery and language may have carried unintended, but very real and hurtful, overtones within the context of what trans people are forced to endure. That's probably why Rich really doesn't want to try addressing the issue deliberately, because even when he most likely isn't trying to address the issue, he ends up inflicting pain, anyways!

This, exactly. If I don't know what I'm doing, and what I'm doing causes pain over and over, I need to not do it anymore. So I'm going to keep with my previous stance on this issue: I would rather people be mad at me for not including representation of a group than hurt because I did.

[Zenzis]

I know I am just one person but I just want to say the giant's response blew me away. I can't think of another time I have read someone talking about how their artistic work might accidentally cause pain and how they respond to it in such a positive, constructive, great way. Just understand that you can't understand and adequately deal with all issues. I can't figure out what to say and am being confusing because that really was just great and I want to say it was great. I am personally close to gender issues and I read A LOT of things from all sides of it and somehow this is the most nontoxic thing ever. Maybe that's why I can't find the right word. This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it. I am going to go buy a PDF of No Cure For Paladin Blues right now because I want to support anyone who would write this. Thanks for making my day.

EDIT: The only thing untrue about this is I meant Good Deeds Gone Unpunished but was too actively blown away to think.

[Peelee]

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

"Healthy?"

[Tarthalion]

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

Wholesome?

[Worldsong]

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

'Positive?'

[Mightymosy]

Like hrothila pointed out, it's more an issue with cultural baggage. Large swathes of the US population (though perhaps only a small subset of those swathes would ever stumble upon GITP or OOTS) go to workplaces where female work and opinions are dismissed, interrupted, stolen without credit, etc. with the reason attributed to hormones (and other such misogynistic stereotypes). Said female workers would probably find it in bad form to make light of their situation the way Roy's was presented, even if it is totally fair for Roy to experience radical changes due to being unfamiliar with having estrogen pumped through his body.

Exactly how large said swathes are is up for debate, and most likely nobody will convince anyone otherwise via the internet. There are those who believe said swathes are nearly nonexistent, and there are those who believe such work environments are nearly omnipresent. Perhaps published findings in journals of sociology would sway people's opinions one way or the other, but everyone knows sociology isn't a real science anyways.

Ok. If that's how you people read these comics, then US is in more of a deep end than I thought....

Girls and women DO get bad moods from their hormones, which is something we in Europe have no trouble acklowledging. It is part of their nature. Also, men do. Again, part of nature. And it might be especially disturbing if a person - like Roy - suddenly recieved a whole lot of hormones from the wrong sex all of a sudden.
These comics were perfectly fine in my opinion, and quite honestly, if what you say is the "default" way to read these comics, this means to me that US society is REALLY weird and I am glad to be European. Geeze!!

[woweedd]

Ok. If that's how you people read these comics, then US is in more of a deep end than I thought....

Girls and women DO get bad moods from their hormones, which is something we in Europe have no trouble acklowledging. It is part of their nature. Also, men do. Again, part of nature. And it might be especially disturbing if a person - like Roy - suddenly recieved a whole lot of hormones from the wrong sex all of a sudden.
These comics were perfectly fine in my opinion, and quite honestly, if what you say is the "default" way to read these comics, this means to me that US society is REALLY weird and I am glad to be European. Geeze!!

No, he's talking about the issue of "hormones" being used to dismiss women as irrational, in a way which typically doesn't happen with men. See also: PMS and Periods, which is especially galling when one considers that, during those time periods, a women's increased aggression is caused by increased testrone...Which is a hormone guys have more of than women at all times. So, if women are irrational when on their periods...You can follow me here

[Hardcore]

It is utterly ironic that the strong desire to get recognition for trans, and other sexual /gender minorities, in the comic has now lead to a zero chance of that happening.
This self-inflicted wound was inevitable I guess.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship.

[woweedd]

It is utterly ironic that the strong desire to get recognition for trans, and other sexual /gender minorities, in the comic has now lead to a zero chance of that happening.
This self-inflicted wound was inevitable I guess.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship.

What exactly do you mean? Rich's position hasn't changed. He's stated before that he does not plan to include Trans characters in OOTS, though may in his later work.

[Fyraltari]

this means to me that US society is REALLY weird

How are you just now figuring that out?

Also, what woweedd said.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a cis-female lizardfolk. Lizard people are not an analogy for trans people. Scales are not an analogy for penises. The joke is about dragonborn and anthropomorphic female creatures having human-like breasts even if creatures of that non-anthropomorphized kind wouldn't have mammaries at all.

That you had to make this post (or felt moved to) illustrates that we are dealing with some posters who are being willfully obtuse. That kind of behavior isn't something that reasoned discussion will change.

I wanted to make a joke about how stupid it was to have the art that way without changing the actual portrayal of reptilian races in my world, so I came up with the idea of a female lizardfolk who was trying to use plastic surgery to "keep up" with the latest trends.

That is how the joke landed to the vast majority of your audience. The willfully obtuse you cannot blame yourself for.

It was a dumb joke about D&D, and if there was any larger point, it was about the trend of (mostly male) artists needlessly injecting stereotypical sexual characteristics into things that wouldn't logically have them.

that landed as well. I disagree that it was a dumb joke. You break the fourth wall a lot, often getting a grin or a chuckle out of your audience.

if I can't predict (within reason) how people are going to take something, then I shouldn't be joking about it in the first place. It's my responsibility to make sure my comic isn't hurting anyone.

You write comedy, among other things. George Carlin (and many others who practice that art form) would probably advise you that you can't make jokes without someone getting their back up now and again. (OK, George won't tell you that, as he'd dead).

You will drive yourself mad if you take a zero defects approach, even though I appreciate your noble sentiments.

I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics.

A man's got to know his limitations; play to your strengths.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship.

I'd call it a man knowing his limitations. Would be nice if more people were self aware to that degree.

[Aveline]

It is utterly ironic that the strong desire to get recognition for trans, and other sexual /gender minorities, in the comic has now lead to a zero chance of that happening.
This self-inflicted wound was inevitable I guess.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship.

Really?

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

That you had to make this post (or felt moved to) illustrates that we are dealing with some posters who are being willfully obtuse. That kind of behavior isn't something that reasoned discussion will change.

Just because you were not aware of a phrase's secondary baggage, and apparently cannot be shown that baggage, does not mean the phrase doesn't have secondary baggage. The lizardfolk herself isn't what brings the joke towards transphobic territory, it's the words, "Best of both worlds" that do it. Those words typed in that order have that baggage already attached for many people, such as Larrx, who has explained her own personal experience, and myself for that matter.

[Goblin_Priest]

But this thread has also proven beyond any doubt I might have had that I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics. That sometimes I can't see parallels with real world issues until someone smacks me in the face with them, nine years later. That the people here claiming that surely I am a good enough author to be capable of writing trans characters with proper deference are, in fact, highly deluded about my general skill level.

Nobody has the "sensitivity" to talk about sensitive subjects without offending anyone.

Because no issue reaches 100% consensus on the world-wide population. Even the most "universal" taboos, like cannibalism, incest, or baby killing... you'll find plenty of historical accounts for, and they aren't gone either.

Even among the prominent figures of "feminism" or "gender studies" or whatever you want to call it, there is much dispute. Far left groups are rather renown for sectarianism, after all, prone to fratricide over petty divergences.

And it goes in all sorts of crazy extremes. Some groups will defend a man identifying as a woman as being a true woman, even without any surgery or hormone treatments. Other groups will accuse him/her of nothing less than being an oppressive tool of the patriarchy, even if s/he underwent full hormonal and surgical changes.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

And that's all assuming people actually read what is said or depicted in the way it really was. Which is not always the case... it's well-known that the human mind tends to distort what it sees, typically heavily tinted by what it assumed it would see. People can easily be triggered by weird personal contorted logic that nobody else could ever guess.

[zimmerwald1915]

And it goes in all sorts of crazy extremes. Some groups will defend a man identifying as a woman as being a true woman, even without any surgery or hormone treatments. Other groups will accuse him/her of nothing less than being an oppressive tool of the patriarchy, even if s/he underwent full hormonal and surgical changes.

And both would be right, because these are not actually opposing viewpoints. Of course people's subjective self-defeating should be given deference, because the only alternative is subjecting people to an external framework. But self-identification doesn't actually get you out of the external framework, because the framework is totalizing and embraces everything that exists.

Personally, I'm just waiting for the runaway greenhouse effect to resolve everything once and for all.