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2019-01-21, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Originally Posted by Savage Species, p.5Originally Posted by Monster Manual v3.5 IIIOriginally Posted by Unearthed Arcana, p.19Level Point System 5E
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2019-01-21, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
This argument has been done to death, people have picked their sides by this point, and little, if nothing is going to persuade them, so I'm not sure what your plan is for this thread.
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2019-01-22, 05:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.
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2019-01-22, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
So true!
For example, they're not just commonly using 3.0 version of Energy Substitution feat (nothing wrong with it, I'm preferring some 3.0 stuff over 3.5 versions too), but have the audacity to insist the mechanics, actually, really doesn't changed since 3.0 at all - even when provided with highlighted quotes!
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2019-01-22, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
You know there are people on both sides of this argument, right? There are probably also a few people like me who see that either a) they don't add to ECL and are overly strong, or b) they do add to ECL are are incredibly bad, and thus just decide not to use them at all, because in either case they're bad for the game.
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2019-01-22, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
My Greatest House Rule:
Anything in 3.0 is always in play unless 3.5 overrules it. However, anything in 3.0 that is omitted in 3.5 is still in play, such as Prestige Classes need to
- Satisfy Prerequisites at all Levels
- Does not have XP Penalty
Premium Edition is 3.75.
Bloodlines are suppose to work with Level Adjustment buy offs.Last edited by HouseRules; 2019-01-22 at 07:32 AM.
Level Point System 5E
Poker Roll
Tier 1 Master of All
Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
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2019-01-22, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Does not have XP Penalty
Also do you lose your prcs when you are hit by stat drain that makes you stop qualifying for the prerequisite feats?
That could be complex as heck when the monster hits with stat drain and that you have to recalculate 20 things because you are no longer filling all the prerequisites for prc 1 which prevents you from taking prc 3 but not prc 2 and so on and which ends up making an loop for which you calculate the limit of the loop then by the time you calculated all that the undead says sorry and goes away crying?Last edited by noob; 2019-01-22 at 07:36 AM.
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2019-01-22, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
ECL-related mechanics end up in that situation a bit often for my tastes, like cohorts can't catch up after buying off LA since their new, lower level means they get less XP. You could, however, get a cohort with his LA already bought off and XP caught up. So it ends up in this situation where the cost is either overly punishing or completely free, which I don't think is a good idea.
Personally, I hate bloodlines because they basically add nothing. Their abilities are pretty much total rubbish, even if you get 20 levels "worth" of abilities for 3 actual levels. Sorry, WotC, but "+2 to diplomacy with Silver Dragons" is never a worthwhile ability. I think it could be salvageable if they had actually worthwhile abilities and maybe added some kind of hit die when you took a level in it too.
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2019-01-22, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-22, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
It does not matter that bloodline is relatively useless. It is useful because they count as Hit Dice (while not giving any actual hit die, but counts towards skill cap), and Caster Level to all Spellcaster Classes, and anything else scale-able by level.
Even if bloodline is relatively useless, Mundane is also relatively useless. If you say one, why not the other?
Edit: Old School has a term for ECL: Adjusted Hit Dice. Yeah, the concept that casters are stronger than Mundane requires monster's Hit Dice to be adjusted for the calculation of experience.Last edited by HouseRules; 2019-01-22 at 07:50 AM.
Level Point System 5E
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2019-01-22, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
bloodlines progress any class feature you have as if you had a bunch of extra levels in it(but it does not gives you extra class features) so it does not progress only spellcaster level: it would also progress the boost in ac from the monk class feature and a bunch of other things like that.
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2019-01-22, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
From what I gather (since I had just made a thread about it), if you were doing something like a Supermount build, or you had several instances sneak attack, it could help tremendously.
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2019-01-22, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Can you point out where it says anywhere that bloodlines are supposed to work with LA? Or are you doing what you just had a go at the rest of the forum for doing, making RAI assumptions?
For a system that increases certain things as if you had a higher HD, like skill cap, caster level, and other class related abilities, like advancing initiator level by 1/2, I wouldn't allow bloodline "LA" buyoff any more than I'd allow RHD buyoff. But at the same time, I don't use bloodlines because they're poorly conceived and even more poorly written.Last edited by Crake; 2019-01-22 at 08:17 AM.
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2019-01-22, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
I guess 12 replies means we're doing this?
Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does
As written, bloodlines are awesome. There's no limit to how many you can take, and the way XP works, you can technically get them all for free. But, as always, and especially for variant rules, individual DMs can implement bloodlines in their game - or not - whichever way they think is best.
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2019-01-22, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Last edited by zlefin; 2019-01-22 at 10:44 AM.
A neat custom class for 3.5 system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616
A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/
An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system
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2019-01-22, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
If they're specially called out as not increasing character level, then they don't increase effective character level either. Full stop.
ECL = Character Level + Level Adjustment.
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2019-01-22, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
You can also do that by casting Enlarge Weapon (CS) while wielding a sizing warhammer and then activating the sizing ability. The two main differences being that this can be done with any type and size of weapon (not just Gargantuan warhammers) and that you either need to persist Enlarge Weapon or use a standard and swift action to activate the combo.
Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2019-01-22 at 11:27 AM.
Extended signature here. Contains: 2 avatars, 3 quotes, a doggo and his friends.
Kitchen Crashers: an adventure building Iron Chef - First edition running 20/04/18-18/05/18.
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2019-01-22, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
By RAW:
The Object of X Volume fits into Y Space for Z Size Category.
Size Volume Space Fine 0.5-foot cube 0.5-foot square Diminutive 1-foot cube 1-foot square Tiny 2-foot cube 2.5-foot square Small 4-foot cube 5-foot square Medium 8-foot cube 5-foot square Large 16-foot cube 10-foot square Huge 32-foot cube 15-foot square Gargantuan 64-foot cube 20-foot square Colossal 128-foot cube 30-foot square
Yes, you could fit those larger objects into a smaller space than them.
Mechanical Units of Measures
Thickness of Materials: multiples of 1 inch.
Height: 1 foot.
Distance: 5 foot.Last edited by HouseRules; 2019-01-22 at 02:59 PM.
Level Point System 5E
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Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
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2019-01-22, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.
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2019-01-22, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
3.0 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level + Level Adjustment
3.5 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level) + Level Adjustment
Hit Dice (including Class Level) = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level)
Some Class Levels gives Hit Dice, and others do not. The issues is that Hit Dice is the sum of Racial Hit Dice and Class Level Hit Dice leads to double counting in Savage Species definition even though examples does not double count, the definition could be interpreted to include double counting.Level Point System 5E
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2019-01-22, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Do not forget that racial hit dice is just levels into a class that have no class features.
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2019-01-22, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
So you even directly quoted the line about bloodline levels not increasing character level as other levels do, but still are going to pick this fight and call people out as RAI supporters when they don't agree with you? Yeah, that's a great way to win an argument.
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2019-01-22, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Level Point System 5E
Poker Roll
Tier 1 Master of All
Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
Tier 4 Master of None
Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
Tier 6 Joke Character
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2019-01-22, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Right, and the text you quoted legitimately reads "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." It is blatantly explaining how there is a difference, and that they do not count towards "class level," which as you are arguing (rather abrasively) is the term used when describing ECL.
Further, if you really want to get into the specifics, ECL is defined as Effective Character Level, so trying to argue that it only refers to class levels is faulty in basis. For further reading, feel free to bounce over to the online glossary available here.
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2019-01-22, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Level Point System 5E
Poker Roll
Tier 1 Master of All
Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
Tier 4 Master of None
Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
Tier 6 Joke Character
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2019-01-22, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
And character level is defined as racial Hit Dice plus class levels. Bloodline levels are specifically stated to be class levels that don't add to character level. Ergo, they do not add to ECL.
Continuing to shout about this will not make you right.
I can't believe I have to argue about RAW with a guy who calls himself HouseRules.
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2019-01-22, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Whelp, I tried. I even gave a direct link to the actual rules text and definitions. If you can't accept that, not much to do here but walk away. Take care with that chip on your shoulder, though, eventually someone will flick it clean off and then gods know what you'll have to do then.
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2019-01-22, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Originally Posted by Character LevelLevel Point System 5E
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Tier 1 Master of All
Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
Tier 4 Master of None
Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
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2019-01-22, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
IMO this is what it means as per RAW. You add all class levels to ECL as a general rule. However, specific trumps general and there is a specific rule with bloodlines that makes them not progress character level like regular classes do, relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.
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2019-01-22, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW!
Page 290 of the Monster Manual 3.5 says that racial Hit Dice are considered levels in a creature's "monster class", and also references the general multi-classing rules on pages 59-60 of the Player's Handbook for monsters who gain levels in a character class.
PHB page 59 defines character level as a character's total number of levels.
If I were to be as pedantic as you, I'll point out that the PHB glossary also states that there are only eleven character classes for players. The definition, if you can't understand, has no information that isn't relevant to the basic PC races and classes in the Player's Handbook. For creatures with racial Hit Dice, you have to consult the Monster Manual. The same is true of the definition of character level. For creatures with no racial Hit Dice, character level is only their levels in character classes. For monsters, it also includes their racial Hit Dice or "monster class".
That's as simple as I can break it down for you. If you still don't get it, then there's no helping you. This conversation has already wasted enough of my time, so I'll wish you good luck in the future finding people who agree with you.