MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Kish]

Well, we don't know that the mind-control spell is still operational years later.

I formally disassociate myself from this We.

It probably is, Chekhov's Suggestion and all,

Yeah. Well, "definitely," not "probably."

And I still think its Geas (with, admittedly, the 10 min casting time hand-waved as mostly having happened on-screen along with other issues not worth going into at the moment).

Dude, if you're going to try to play the Geas card, you need to address the "other issues," not just wave your hand and say that the reasons your preferred explanation doesn't work are not worth your time to acknowledge.

But setting that all aside, I think having Xykon's control spell be Epic is entirely reasonable in return for a years-long duration and being able to affect (almost) anything. Sure, it'd be less powerful than Wish, but Wish is stupidly broken. Comparing it to similar spells, Control Undead is 7th level, allows a single Will save, affects up to 2HD per level of caster, and has a duration of 1 minute per level. Control Plants has virtually identical stats except its pegged at 8th level.

And both of those are able to do substantially more than make one suggestion.

On the other hand, allowing it to affect normally immune things is a REALLY huge increase in power. How do we know? Because Control Plants is *5* spell levels higher than Suggestion.

Comparing it to Suggestion makes no sense because, again, it doesn't make a single suggestion. You're treating the huge difference between "turn someone into your slave" and "make one suggestion" as so trivial it's not even worth acknowledging that you're ignoring. Try Dominate Person: level 5 and only works on humanoids; I guess if the difference between making one suggestion and total mind control is meaningless then going from language-dependent to only affecting humanoids is actually somehow a two-level buff. Or Dominate Monster: One level above Control Plant, mind-affecting (thus won't work on plants), but otherwise "not restricted by creature type."

[Aspheric]

You're implying a dichotomy that I never suggested (I suspect because, as you previously stated, you consider "it's mind-affecting" inherently important and resist the entire idea that it isn't). The choices aren't "it was a throwaway, so it has the mind-affecting tag" vs. "Rich made up a specific spell in order to be able to say it lacks the mind-affecting tag."

Or in other words, I'm suggesting it's a case of, "He used Xykon's Amazing Manchurian Candidate spell, which lacks the mind-affecting tag. Who cares? I sure don't."

Supposing it's not a mind-affecting spell, that still doesn't address why Xykon has access to a souped-up mind control spell and only uses it once, in a scene of little consequence. If there is supposed to be a pay-off to that scene, we would have seen it by now. All the spells that have this effect that aren't your suggested mind control spell are mind-affecting spells, hence the assumption on my part.

If the scene in question is inconsequential to the greater story, it strains credibility that Rich would give Xykon an especially powerful spell that he hasn't used for the entirety of the main comic. Tsukiko being able to raise wights or Miko being able to break free of Xykon's force cage are far less consequential than giving Xykon a powerful spell that could, say, dominated that ancient silver dragon he had to kill and zombify. There are two conclusions we could draw from that scene, as I see it: either A) MitD is vulnerable to mind-affecting spells like Suggestion and Dominate Monster, or B) he isn't and Xykon has a powerful mind control spell that can bypass normal immunities. If A is true, the analysis of that scene comes down to guessing what spell Xykon was using, and for what purpose. If the latter is true, it raises too many questions for me. It's not impossible, but I don't think it's likelier than the fact that Rich didn't need to come up with an alternate spell because it wasn't necessary.

Come to think of it, how does Rich bending the rules for Xykon's spell here impact the MitD at all? If that's really your defense here, than it's just as likely that he used Geas. That interpretation is just as in line with the Tsukiko situation than the possibility that he created a special spell for one scene that, again, doesn't even appear in the main story.

So as far as I see it, yes, the mind-affecting tag matters. For the record: I agree that the spell probably isn't Geas, and I don't think Xykon's command is still in effect. The only significance of that scene for me is in establishing that if RC betrayed Xykon, MitD would be compelled to devour RC. The pay-off didn't happen, but if we're going to see it again, I expect we'll see Xykon cast the spell again (maybe at the end of this book).

[CriticalFailure]

Xykon could go and recast whatever spell it is on MiTD twice a week for all we know, and it's just not shown because once was enough.

[Kish]

Supposing it's not a mind-affecting spell, that still doesn't address why Xykon has access to a souped-up mind control spell and only uses it once, in a scene of little consequence. If there is supposed to be a pay-off to that scene, we would have seen it by now. All the spells that have this effect that aren't your suggested mind control spell are mind-affecting spells, hence the assumption on my part.

If the scene in question is inconsequential to the greater story, it strains credibility that Rich would give Xykon an especially powerful spell that he hasn't used for the entirety of the main comic. Tsukiko being able to raise wights or Miko being able to break free of Xykon's force cage are far less consequential than giving Xykon a powerful spell that could, say, dominated that ancient silver dragon he had to kill and zombify.

Silver dragons aren't immune to mind-affecting spells. "Why didn't he use that spell on the ancient silver dragon?" is a problem for your argument, which assumes that him having that spell is more important to the story than him having Xykon's Moderately-Escapable Forcecage was for one strip, not for mine. You tell me: Why didn't he use whatever spell he used on the creature on the darkness on the ancient silver dragon?

Addressing why Xykon only uses the souped-up mind-control spell you're saying he has once is, again, something you should do. And "because it doesn't work on creatures with mind-affecting immunity" is not the answer to why he wouldn't use it on the ancient silver dragon, Dorukan, and especially Redcloak--if it's not a throwaway, but a spell that Rich put any real thought into him having.

"All the spells that have this effect that aren't your suggested mind control spell are mind-affecting spells"--setting aside that I didn't suggest a mind control spell, rather a spell which could make a single suggestion, what are they? List them. For real, if you want to put as much weight as you are on it having to be a by-the-book spell, find a single by-the-book spell that fits.

Edited: Wait, I think I missed something about what you're saying.

So as far as I see it, yes, the mind-affecting tag matters. For the record: I agree that the spell probably isn't Geas, and I don't think Xykon's command is still in effect. The only significance of that scene for me is in establishing that if RC betrayed Xykon, MitD would be compelled to devour RC. The pay-off didn't happen, but if we're going to see it again, I expect we'll see Xykon cast the spell again (maybe at the end of this book).

...okay, I'm not going to try and disentangle "the pay-off didn't happen," but if you treat that scene as having no meaning beyond Start of Darkness, there is indeed one spell, with the mind-affecting tag, that fits: Suggestion. Still no "all the spells," but, one; no need for any new-spell researching as long as the effect of that spellcasting can be assumed to be over and done with.

[Peelee]

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-...ionary/MED7268

Don't look at me like that. It's English, not French. Inventing words that suit a need is allowed.


Grey Wolf

Middle English Compendium? That's it, I'm blaming the hobbits.

[Riftwolf]

Not 300-((1d20-1)*(1d6-1)*(1d4-1)) ?

150d2s. With Krarks Thumb. In case the nights planned dungeons running a little thin and you need to pad it out a bit.

[Crusher]

Yeah. Well, "definitely," not "probably."

Oh? Link me the page or quote from Rich confirming it’s still active, if you don’t mind? Otherwise, how do you know it’s definite, not probable?

[Schroeswald]

Oh? Link me the page or quote from Rich confirming it’s still active, if you don’t mind? Otherwise, how do you know it’s definite, not probable?

Because why? That sounds like a major scene (haven't read SoD so correct me if I'm wrong), and even with a complete disregard of conservation of detail it is still active, okay maybe it isn't actually 100%, but 99.9% is enough to say definitely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because why? That sounds like a major scene (haven't read SoD so correct me if I'm wrong), and even with a complete disregard of conservation of detail it is still active, okay maybe it isn't actually 100%, but 99.9% is enough to say definitely.

No. As I already said, it is not a major scene, it is practically a throwaway. And Rich would never drop a surprise like that on the on-line readers, which tells me that, if it will be important in book 7, the spell will be repeated on-line before it becomes relevant, which immediately puts me in mind of a spell with a relatively limited duration that Xykon has been re-applying off-panel and thus will do on-panel (possibly with a "MitD, it's time for your weekly 1-on-1" or whatever).

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

150d2s. With Krarks Thumb. In case the nights planned dungeons running a little thin and you need to pad it out a bit.

There is something to be said about an attack with a minimum power of half the maximum damage...

No. As I already said, it is not a major scene, it is practically a throwaway. And Rich would never drop a surprise like that on the on-line readers, which tells me that, if it will be important in book 7, the spell will be repeated on-line before it becomes relevant, which immediately puts me in mind of a spell with a relatively limited duration that Xykon has been re-applying off-panel and thus will do on-panel (possibly with a "MitD, it's time for your weekly 1-on-1" or whatever).

Grey Wolf

My issue is more that its from SoD. That means that if it doesn't get brought up in-comic, then it will come from absolutely nowhere for a considerable amount of Rich's readerbase, because if you've only been reading the main comic then insofar as you are aware it hasn't happened. Thus, while the event itself should not be disregarded, the certainty that it is still running seems unlikely until it is brought up again in the main comic.

[Kish]

Oh? Link me the page or quote from Rich confirming it’s still active, if you don’t mind? Otherwise, how do you know it’s definite, not probable?

Ah, so the "geas" claim and the equation of "suggestion" with "total mind control" go unsupported but unretracted.

That being the case, yeah, I mind.

[Aspheric]

Edited: Wait, I think I missed something about what you're saying.

...okay, I'm not going to try and disentangle "the pay-off didn't happen," but if you treat that scene as having no meaning beyond Start of Darkness, there is indeed one spell, with the mind-affecting tag, that fits: Suggestion. Still no "all the spells," but, one; no need for any new-spell researching as long as the effect of that spellcasting can be assumed to be over and done with.

This is how I understand that scene: Xykon wants to keep Redcloak in check, and gives MitD the Suggestion to "devour Redcloak if he betrays him." The spoilery events at the end of SoD happen, leading Redcloak to "protect" Xykon rather than betray him, and the spell's effect eventually fades without forcing MitD to act, one way or another.

What I mean by "the pay-off didn't happen," is that the demand the Suggestion makes of MitD then to devour Redcloak never comes to pass, since it hinges on him betraying Xykon. That Xykon might have been casting Suggestions periodically since then is also something I don't agree with. I'm not fond of "it could be happening all the time off-panel" explanations.

And just to clarify: I wasn't arguing that it couldn't be a homebrewed spell, just that (given my reading above) it's not really necessary. Suggestion works for that scene. I would still argue that MitD getting the swirly-eye treatment that victims of mind-affecting spells get elsewhere in the comic does suggest that Xykon was mind-affecting him, regardless of the spell in question.

[Keltest]

Ah, so the "geas" claim and the equation of "suggestion" with "total mind control" go unsupported but unretracted.

That being the case, yeah, I mind.

For my part, if you don't intend to cite your sources when you make major claims like that, I don't intend to take your arguments seriously. I don't really care if youre bothered by Crusher's arguments, what you are doing is treating speculation as verified fact. If you have verification for that claim, that's kind of a big deal and we really should have that. If you don't, then you've basically just made something up and called it truth.

[Crusher]

Ah, so the "geas" claim and the equation of "suggestion" with "total mind control" go unsupported but unretracted.

That being the case, yeah, I mind.

Nah. I mean, seriously, Geas was the smallest, most tangential point of my argument. It was almost entirely peripheral to the main point, which was the viability of a Xykon mind control Uber-spell, and I caveated it as having its own serious issues either two or three times.

And you’re intentionally avoiding defending your statements to go after my throw-away Geas comment? Dude, that’s like one step up from attacking my punctuation.

So... sure. I’m not inclined to take that bait. But if you REALLY want to bail on everything else and take the debate to Geas, then I guess that’s fine, but... whatever.

So, defending Geas. It works the same as Lesser Geas, but it’s better. Duration is 1 day/level, but the fluff is oddly worded. With something like Suggestion, the fluff says the spell ends early if the target completes the suggested action. But with Geas, the wording implies the effect can last longer than the duration if the effect isn’t impossible for the target to accomplish but the target is unable to do it during the duration (I don’t have it in front of me and forget the exact phrasing).

On the plus side, it operates more like Suggestion in that it isn’t a Dominate-like overarching control. You don’t overwrite the target, you just make the target really want to do this one thing. That’s a better match for the presumably very minimal effect we saw the spell have on MitD (I say presumably, but maybe it’s personality has been significantly different since then since it’s been under Xykon’s constant influence. Doesn’t seem likely but it’s possible). Also, the duration is much, much longer than just about any non-epic Compulsion spell.

On the downside, the casting time on Geas is 10 minutes. Xykon only seemed to be talking to MitD for.a few seconds. Then again, no one else was around and MitD was being charmed in some fashion so maybe it took 10 min. Additionally, eating RC if he betrays Xykon seems like an impossible thing for MitD to do by himself since RC has to betray Xykon. Again, I don’t have it in front of me, but iirc, that’s still ok, it just means the duration is capped at a few weeks rather than potentially being indefinite.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be honest, for this vote I might as well start out by quoting my last reasoning:

My reasoning for my vote:
In general, I think the FBS list is pretty fine as is, so I’ve put down A as my top preference. If pressed, I’d be fine with adding a “no embodiments of Evil rule”, but I don’t think it’s an essential and I’ll admit part of it is because the Glabrezu isn’t my favorite option and I won’t lose much sleep over it leaving.

Accordingly, my main preference is Z, followed up by C. I’ve put down as my last preference any combination of C and B because I don’t think that it’s an entirely unreasonable hypothesis to suppose that Xykon has some way around typical immunity to mind affecting spells. The main reason I like rule 7 is because it rules out the god possibility, so I won’t vote for D, but I’m fine with pretty much any combination of C and B as a final resort.

[Crusher]

Oh, right, dominate vs suggestion.

So, Suggestion is level 3, Dominate Person is 5. So, going from CONTROL to one suggestion (and multiplying the duration by 60) reduces the spell level by 2.

Dominate Monster is level 9. Bumping that down by 2 to “Xykon’s Suggest anything not immune spell” goes to 7th (at least, I think so. As I’ve already noted twice, I’m not an expert on this).

Making compulsion spells work JUST on Undead and Plants are, individually, 2 and 1 spell level below affecting “Monsters” (I.e. anything). So adding BOTH those abilities (plus elementals, constructs, etc) is a significant power boost. At least 1, probably 2 spell levels. So, “Xykon’s Suggest anything short of a god spell” is level 8 or 9.

Now, we need to bump the duration from Suggestions 1 hour/level to years. As before, this is a huge increase in power. With the Epic Spell Crafting rules, +100% duration is a +2 to the Spellcraft check (effectively the spell level, but it’s Epic so it gets a little fuzzy. Plus, if you do it more than once I don’t know how the math works), so increasing the duration by a factor of, I dunno, 1000x maybe? Is another significant increase in power, probably a couple spell levels. Which puts us back in Epic territory.

Sorry if I’ve come across combative. I admit I kinda feel that way now, but I certainly didn’t start out with that intent and it’s making me feel icky, so i’m sorry for that.

[Kish]

Nah. I mean, seriously, Geas was the smallest, most tangential point of my argument. It was almost entirely peripheral to the main point, which was the viability of a Xykon mind control Uber-spell, and I caveated it as having its own serious issues either two or three times.

And you’re intentionally avoiding defending your statements to go after my throw-away Geas comment? Dude, that’s like one step up from attacking my punctuation.

Rather, you started talking about what "we" knew, I challenged you to address specific objections to geas--which you still have not done*--and you responded by snipping that part of my post entirely, ignoring it, and demanding I support using more certain phrasing than you agree with.

For whatever it's worth, I have no quote from Rich and yet I am still confident that the "the creature in the darkness is Suggested to devour Redcloak if Redcloak betrays Xykon" is an active plot point, not one that only existed for Start of Darkness as Aspheric apparently believes. If it turns out it never comes up, you'll get to gloat that I was both certain and wrong, as I was about Greg.

*If you want to actually click the links in my previous post, you'll find that nothing you're saying about geas here addresses them. This does strike me as unlike you.

Edited to add a reply to post made while I was posting this:

Oh, right, dominate va suggestion.

So, Suggestion is level 3, Dominate Person is 5. So, going from CONTROL to one suggestion (and multiplying the duration by 60) reduces the spell level by 2.

Dominate Monster is level 9. Bumping that down by 2 to “Xykon’s Suggest anything not immune spell” goes to 7th (at least, I think so. As I’ve already noted twice, I’m not an expert on this).

Making compulsion spells work JUST on Undead and Plants are, individually, 2 and 1 spell level below affecting “Monsters” (I.e. anything). So adding BOTH those abilities (plus elementals, constructs, etc) is a significant power boost. At least 1, probably 2 spell levels. So, “Xykon’s Suggest anything short of a god spell” is level 8 or 9.

Uh...wha? You start from Suggestion and go one or two levels up, you're at 4 or 5. The route you're taking to reach a level 8 or 9 version of Suggestion pre-duration increase is really circuitous; I'm not seeing a good reason to involve Dominate at all. If you want to make a case that going from basic, third-level Suggestion (which already works on anything that isn't immune to mind-affecting effects, so it's not nearly as restricted as Dominate Person, which, again, is only humanoids) to "and it's not a mind-affecting effect" should add five or six levels without a duration increase, you should make that case on its own.

(Irony: meanwhile, some people are arguing that it's not actually one spell that's lasting for years at all, which would obviate this whole line of debate.)

[Crusher]

Rather, you started talking about what "we" knew, I challenged you to address specific objections to geas--which you still have not done*--*If you want to actually click the links in my previous post, you'll find that nothing you're saying about geas here addresses them. This does strike me as unlike you.

I snipped our everything but the Geas-addressing stuff. Was that the ManchurianCandidate spell thing? I tried clicking on it earlier, but my browser just hung. I’m on my phone so that might be the issue.

Edit - Oh, the three earlier ones. Yeah, 2 of the 3 made my browser just hang, but I could see the 2nd one the “why not just do everything I say?” one. In response, um, I dunno. I mean, if I was the DM and a player tried to do that, I’d say no as each Suggestion counted as a new thing. But I dunno.

[Kish]

Ah. I see. There are three links in (starts to link, stops) in post #961 of this thread.

Paraphrasing their contents: Geas specifies that the geased target can actively attempt to subvert the geas's wording, taking 3d6 damage and becoming sickened if they do not obey. If it's for an open-ended command, it has a maximum duration of one day per caster level.

Not something that logically translates into "this is buried in your subconscious and you don't know it's there until the trigger condition is fulfilled years later." Xykon could recast it every few weeks, except that "A clever recipient can subvert some instructions" only works if the target knows the geas is there and so the creature in the darkness would know Xykon was telling him every few weeks to eat Redcloak and spit out his holy symbol if he ever betrayed Xykon.

[Lombard]

Whoo-ee you could cut the tension in here with a brand new d4!

I already told you guys like years ago it was probably the 8th level sorc/wiz spell greater bestow curse, "creative/DM discretion" variant. My duration is longer than yours. Much, much longer.

[CriticalFailure]

Whoo-ee you could cut the tension in here with a brand new d4!

I already told you guys like years ago it was probably the 8th level sorc/wiz spell greater bestow curse, "creative/DM discretion" variant. My duration is longer than yours. Much, much longer.

More evidence for the theory that because the previous world messed Odin up, he ends up letting Northern casters homebrew the most broken sh*t.

[lio45]

No. As I already said, it is not a major scene, it is practically a throwaway. And Rich would never drop a surprise like that on the on-line readers, which tells me that, if it will be important in book 7, the spell will be repeated on-line before it becomes relevant, which immediately puts me in mind of a spell with a relatively limited duration that Xykon has been re-applying off-panel and thus will do on-panel (possibly with a "MitD, it's time for your weekly 1-on-1" or whatever).

Grey Wolf

My issue is more that its from SoD. That means that if it doesn't get brought up in-comic, then it will come from absolutely nowhere for a considerable amount of Rich's readerbase, because if you've only been reading the main comic then insofar as you are aware it hasn't happened. Thus, while the event itself should not be disregarded, the certainty that it is still running seems unlikely until it is brought up again in the main comic.

Why is this "an issue" or "a surprise dropped on the online readers"...?

It's perfectly reasonable that some of the clues in the quest for What MitD Is could be found only in the extra books. It's not critical to the story at all. Most readers probably wonder what MitD is without trying to determine it; they're just waiting for the reveal.

When MitD gets revealed, if it turns out that SoD gave us a certain hint about him that wasn't accessible to the readers of the online comic, no one is going to cry foul. In fact that's almost certain to be the case - the big game hunters, the fact it's ugly yet beautiful, etc. are "clues" that "aren't available to online-only readers" and it's okay.

[Peelee]

Why is this "an issue" or "a surprise dropped on the online readers"...?

It's perfectly reasonable that some of the clues in the quest for What MitD Is could be found only in the extra books. It's not critical to the story at all. Most readers probably wonder what MitD is without trying to determine it; they're just waiting for the reveal.

When MitD gets revealed, if it turns out that SoD gave us a certain hint about him that wasn't accessible to the readers of the online comic, no one is going to cry foul. In fact that's almost certain to be the case - the big game hunters, the fact it's ugly yet beautiful, etc. are "clues" that "aren't available to online-only readers" and it's okay.

The hint wouldn't be a surprise dropped on the online readers, the sudden and out-of-nowhere action would. What would you say if, on finding the final Gate, Roy immediately reverted back to a ghost and his body fell to the ground, and you later found out that in some book you never got he was cursed to die again as soon as the final Gate was discovered? It would be completely random when you first read it, because you had no foreshadowing.

[Kish]

I am nearly certain that the online comic will mention Xykon having hypnotized the creature in the darkness before it comes up, the same way it mentioned Redcloak's brother, and had Redcloak spell out the details of the Plan to Tsukiko before killing her.

And the other, let's say 5%, chance I'm considering is that it might have the creature in the darkness go swirly-eyed and attack Redcloak, and explain why for online-only people just after instead of before.

[Fyraltari]

The hint wouldn't be a surprise dropped on the online readers, the sudden and out-of-nowhere action would.

Not necessarily. When Redcloak betrays Xykon towards the end of the book, all it would take would be for xykon to go "Ooh, Redcloak, did you really think I wouldn't take any measure in case my right-hand man ever gets the balls to think he can be top dog?" And the camera steps back to allow a MitD with swirly eyes into view going "Must... devour... Redclaok..." and bam, chase/action scene.

[Squire Doodad]

Not necessarily. When Redcloak betrays Xykon towards the end of the book, all it would take would be for xykon to go "Ooh, Redcloak, did you really think I wouldn't take any measure in case my right-hand man ever gets the balls to think he can be top dog?" And the camera steps back to allow a MitD with swirly eyes into view going "Must... devour... Redclaok..." and bam, chase/action scene.

You can tell MitD has been brainwashed because of the fact that he mispelled Redcloak

That's the sort of scenario that is a strong plot twist, with specific details available in SoD. A bit pushing it, by not by a huge amount.

[The Aboleth]

No. As I already said, it is not a major scene, it is practically a throwaway. And Rich would never drop a surprise like that on the on-line readers, which tells me that, if it will be important in book 7, the spell will be repeated on-line before it becomes relevant, which immediately puts me in mind of a spell with a relatively limited duration that Xykon has been re-applying off-panel and thus will do on-panel (possibly with a "MitD, it's time for your weekly 1-on-1" or whatever).

Grey Wolf

This has always been my thought about that spell, too. I fully expect a later scene--maybe one in the morning?--where Xykon walks up to MitD and says something along the lines of, "Ok, ugly, time for your morning bowl of Suggestion-O's" and MitD going, "Uh, what?" Then Xykon casts his spell (with similar instructions to the one in SoD), MitD doesn't remember a spell being cast on him, then Xykon walks away like nothing happened.

It'd be a quick and easy way to introduce that moment from SoD into the main comic, similar to how we got Redcloak explaining The Plan to Tsukiko in the main comic even though SoD had that info years beforehand. So I expect this MitD mind-control to come up in the main comic later.

[lio45]

The hint wouldn't be a surprise dropped on the online readers, the sudden and out-of-nowhere action would. What would you say if, on finding the final Gate, Roy immediately reverted back to a ghost and his body fell to the ground, and you later found out that in some book you never got he was cursed to die again as soon as the final Gate was discovered? It would be completely random when you first read it, because you had no foreshadowing.

Sure, but that wasn't my point. (There's nothing you wrote I disagree with, BTW.)

Let me slightly rephrase my question:

Everyone in here, AFAIK, agrees on the following facts:
1) Xykon did something to (cast something on) the MitD, to successfully bind him to his will as far as one specific order is concerned;
2) The online-only readership doesn't know that;
3) If/when it becomes relevant to the online story, then the online readership will get a "refresh" of it (not the correct word in the cases of the readers to whom this will be their first contact with this situation of Xykon having bound MitD, but you get my point) in the online comic.
4) We don't know the exact nature of what Xykon did. Could be mind-control, or Suggestion, could have to be refreshed every week, could last for years. All we know is that it worked then, and also that Xykon would logically want to make sure the effect continues to this day (but that last part doesn't tell us anything - he could be refreshing that spell regularly).

Now, the inevitability of the in-comic "refresh" referenced in point #3 above is a consensus in this thread... we all agree that the online readership will get informed that MitD has been controlled/bound by Xykon when it's time for that information to become relevant, but I don't see why this allows us to jump to any conclusion wrt the type of spell used or the duration of it. This scene in the online comic could just as easily be plot exposition of Xykon having cast a years-long Suggestion back then, as it could be Xykon casting his weekly spell.


[at this point, cue the Oracle of Sunken Valley saying: "? is there even a quest- ]

So, to those who use the fact that the online readership will have to get informed at some point that Xykon has had the MitD under magical control to draw further conclusions about the nature of this control, what exactly makes you think that you can deduce from this that it can't be a years-long spell cast once?

In other words, I don't see at all that "it will be brought up again in the main comic" - something on which everyone here agrees - automatically implies "the way it will be brought up again in the main comic is that we'll see Xykon casting his regular weekly refresh on MitD".

If anyone has a reason to make that jump to that conclusion, I haven't seen (a compelling version of) it yet.

[Squire Doodad]

So, to those who use the fact that the online readership will have to get informed at some point that Xykon has had the MitD under magical control to draw further conclusions about the nature of this control, what exactly makes you think that you can deduce from this that it can't be a years-long spell cast once?

In other words, I don't see at all that "it will be brought up again in the main comic" - something on which everyone here agrees - automatically implies "the way it will be brought up again in the main comic is that we'll see Xykon casting his regular weekly refresh on MitD".

If anyone has a reason to make that jump to that conclusion, I haven't seen (a compelling version of) it yet.

I think the point is that if it does come up again, it'll probably be done via Xykon refreshing the spell on account of no viable spell existing that can last that long in any plausible scenario without making Xykon hundreds of levels. This suggests it is either refreshed repeatedly, was a one-time event with no attempts to reinstate it, or was a homebrew spell. For the sake of simplicity and keeping in line with the loose rules of "MitD isn't something Rich made up", we're assuming that if that panel has relevance to MitD, then it will not be a homebrew spell. Thus, it is unlikely that it is affecting all creatures and similarly it is unlikely (though a bit more probable) that the spell has been used more than once so as to stop it from being some sort of multi-year uberspell which would be a homebrew one.

Then you get to the question of "is it a one-time spell" and "is it refreshed frequently" to determine what the spell is, but that's a bit above my paygrade.

[Throknor]

This has always been my thought about that spell, too. I fully expect a later scene--maybe one in the morning?--where Xykon walks up to MitD and says something along the lines of, "Ok, ugly, time for your morning bowl of Suggestion-O's" and MitD going, "Uh, what?" Then Xykon casts his spell (with similar instructions to the one in SoD), MitD doesn't remember a spell being cast on him, then Xykon walks away like nothing happened.

It'd be a quick and easy way to introduce that moment from SoD into the main comic, similar to how we got Redcloak explaining The Plan to Tsukiko in the main comic even though SoD had that info years beforehand. So I expect this MitD mind-control to come up in the main comic later.

This. As the MITD keeps marking extra doors both Redcloak and Xykon are going to start getting suspicious of each other. Recasting this spell could easily be part of scenes showing this kind of situation.