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2019-08-26, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
It is unsettling how Loki refers to the world as belonging in the trash. For one of the creators of a world to think so little of it, of all the people living there, is callous in a way that neither Xykon nor the Snarl manages to achieve. At least those two don't have such utter disregard for whatever-the-world-of-OOTS-is-called.
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2019-08-26, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Assuming that Loki is telling the truth this would both establish him as actually being a caring parent, and not having created the Bet for some bigger plan than just "I want to see things happen".
Of course the assumption that Loki is telling the truth is a rather big one under the best of circumstances, but at least it's believable since shaking things up is usually in the portfolio of trickster gods.
EDIT:
The way he phrases it gives the impression that it's less about whether he wants to be truthful or not and more that it's literally impossible for him. The comic has addressed this issue before, that gods are heavily influenced by their believers.
Thor is a blonde even though he started out as a ginger because the mortals think of him as blonde, and Odin was turned into an idiot because in the last world everyone living in the North thought magic (his domain) was stupid and only used by stupid people.Last edited by Worldsong; 2019-08-26 at 10:20 AM.
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2019-08-26, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
This went up right before my alarm went off this morning. Nice to be able to read over my morning coffee (especially since my current work project is also somewhat D&D / fantasy related).
Nothing too surprising in this one, although it lays out Loki's motivations nicely and gives us extra stakes for our heroes. (And maybe extra motivation for Thor to bend the rules, if it becomes necessary.)
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2019-08-26, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
There's a timely reminder that, hey, y'all, Loki's still chaotic evil.
~ Composer99
D&D 5e Campaign:
Adventures in Eaphandra
D&D 5e Homebrew:
This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!
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2019-08-26, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-08-26, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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2019-08-26, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
It's a fictional world, so obviously it can have any population that the author wants, but the pre-industrial population of our world peaked at about half a billion, so my head canon has the population of all thinking peoples in the OOTS world at or below that level. So it requires that they all believe in Loki and believe he's incapable of telling the truth.
So, I'm going to say it's hyperbole from Loki - just because he can tell the truth to Thor doesn't mean he does, so there's no need to take his believer estimates as even remotely accurate.Last edited by Tarthalion; 2019-08-26 at 10:21 AM.
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2019-08-26, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
Free haiku !
Alas, poor Cookie
The world needs more platypi
I wish you could be
Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2019-08-26, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
This is a misunderstanding of what Loki is saying.
He's not saying he can't say something because his followers would find out and be upset. He's saying that he is physically constructed from the beliefs of his followers (and the broader public), and thus because his followers believe he is incapable of honesty, he actually is incapable of honesty (except to Thor). Everything is made up of ideas, even him.
As far as Loki saying just six strips ago that he can do whatever he wants: he is incapable of honesty (except to Thor).Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2019-08-26, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
There are 10,000,000+ Dwarves (according to Hel), and Dwarves are usually a relatively minor race. Half a billion is probably too many for the Northern Pantheon, because it would screw up Hel's plan*, but it is not unreasonable for the world as a whole.
*The value of (Nondwarven Northern souls/11 non-Hel gods) must be significantly less that 10 million for getting every last Dwarf to be enough for her to take over. This would cap the North at >100 million. However, what we've seen suggests that the North is less heavily populated than the other two deitic regions.
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2019-08-26, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Cazero; 2019-08-26 at 10:30 AM.
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
Free haiku !
Alas, poor Cookie
The world needs more platypi
I wish you could be
Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2019-08-26, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2019-08-26, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Half a billion people down there believe I'm incapable of honesty. Do you think I can go against that when its inconvnient?
I liked this strip a lot.
It resets the gods into their usual roles, to include Loki warning Thor that if Hel dies before the next world is created, there will be trouble.
The only thing you'll know for sure is that you'll never see me coming.
Especially once I knew we were doing yet another boring fantasy pastiche for this one
Internally consistent. Nice job, Giant.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-26 at 10:42 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-08-26, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Not to mention there are probably a lot of souls that don't end up in a god's domain like Roy or the archfiends' souls.
Plus the OOTS world has the major races duplicated as aquatic and subterranean variants. Rich can always just say "there are 100 million merfolk" or "there are only 100 thousand merfolk" if he ever accidentally throws out a number that's too big or too small.
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2019-08-26, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Onkeldata; 2019-08-26 at 10:38 AM.
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2019-08-26, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
There seems to be some level of ontological inertia for the gods. They need mortals believing in them to continue to exist, yes, but all established gods that have made it through a destruction and creation cycle have some resources they can fall back on when there are no mortals.
So the answer is "The mortals of the previous few worlds did enough thinking they can afford to not be thought about for a bit."Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-08-26 at 10:39 AM.
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2019-08-26, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Given the color of the portal Thor and Loki are leaving, Hel's place seems to be in the Neutral Evil plane. That nails her alignment.
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2019-08-26, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2019-08-26, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2019-08-26, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
The gods existed first, but the belief of their followers and non-followers will directly affect their existence whether they like it or not. If, for some reason, the public at large believed that Thor was blond-haired instead of ginger, Thor's hair color would change in response. In the same way, the gods rely on that very same belief to exist, as faith serve as food for them.
Remember that gods do not have direct communication with their followers. Aside from telling them their agenda, no one ever meets the gods face-to-face unless it's for a vital, world-shaking reason (like Durkon). Which means that most people don't actually know what the gods are like, so they fill in the gaps with what they themselves believe, and some ideas catch on and everybody start believing that.
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2019-08-26, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.
In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.
EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2019-08-26, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-08-26, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Poor Durkon. His responsibility is even bigger than he knows:
- Save the world
- save the universe potentially forever
- save Hell
- save Thor from Loki's retaliation and the potential Divine Vendetta that rises from it.
All on the shoulders of a stick figure.
PS: I admire the narrative contructions that have made this 'Role Reversal' possible. Internally consistent and believable.My personal folder is a graveyard of ideas, stuck in their dream phase.The "DM won't kill us" attitude is a bubble that sometimes needs to be bursted.Avatar courtesy of Linklele
There's an armor variant rule in UA that will drastically increase character survivability without completely bubble-wrapping them in plot invulnerabilityThrophies won:Spoiler
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2019-08-26, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by hroþila; 2019-08-26 at 10:55 AM.
ungelic is us
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2019-08-26, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-08-26, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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2019-08-26, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Chasing my dreams.
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2019-08-26, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-08-26, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-08-26, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread
"There seems to be some sort of doctrinal flexibility..." is one of those great lines I love this comic for.
I also love that this subtlely showing the symbiosis between gods and mortals.