afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Gotham]

Depends on the creature, buuuut for the vast majority, no.

Would it depend on the worshipper being an ensouled mortal, instead of the sort of "born of the plane" elementals that typically populate the Inner Planes?

I'm working on an endgame that involves Shothragot attempting to free Tharizdun, and one of the previous threads discussed that if Shothragot actually made it into the Ethereal, the gods could just send out divine salient abilities and/or solars en masse to **** it up. While this is a good idea for a failsafe, I'd like to figure out a way to keep the gods from doing that. However, when I think up stuff that could distract the gods from the possible releasing of Big T, anything big enough to keep their attention seems like it would be an objectively bigger problem than Tharizdun. So my question is, what kinds of things could keep a pantheon's attention and forces occupied while not over-shadowing the Ebon God?

[Jowgen]

I'm working on an endgame that involves Shothragot attempting to free Tharizdun, and one of the previous threads discussed that if Shothragot actually made it into the Ethereal, the gods could just send out divine salient abilities and/or solars en masse to **** it up. While this is a good idea for a failsafe, I'd like to figure out a way to keep the gods from doing that. However, when I think up stuff that could distract the gods from the possible releasing of Big T, anything big enough to keep their attention seems like it would be an objectively bigger problem than Tharizdun. So my question is, what kinds of things could keep a pantheon's attention and forces occupied while not over-shadowing the Ebon God?

A tactical/careful deployment of an Elder Evil with the Impervious to the Divine malefic property might work. Sertrous for example. He can't really threaten deities directly, but none of their divine spells, spell-likes or SU abilities work on him. Also has Anathemic Secrecy, which makes him notoriously difficult to keep track of.

If he were to turn up at a really inconvenient place at the right time, doing something he can not be allowed to do, it might provide a window of opportunity for old Shotty. Of course that doesn't cover the how or what, but it might be a start.

[Gotham]

So, set an Elder Evil to cover for an Elder Evil?

[ShurikVch]

It's, probably, was already asked at some point, but still: number of effects in the game are referring to a "soul" or "spirit" - such as Astral Projection, Imprison Soul, Magic Jar, Trap the Soul spells, or Astral Seed power.

But Elemental and Outsider types are say:

Unlike most other living creatures, an ... does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an ... is slain, no soul is set loose.

So, what's will happen if creature of one of those types are affected by such effect?
(Say, does it mean if a Huge fiend would be slayed with a thinaun sword, its corpse would be sucked into the blade completely, and leave nothing behind?)

[Tzardok]

I mean it's not, since if you have the book with the dogai in it, you have the explanation...



And that's where murder devils come from.

What?? I even re-read the entry on dogai before asking to prevent exactly that! How did I miss that?
Thank you for the answer. Generally, I don't think I thank you often enough, so again: Thank you.

[afroakuma]

Would it depend on the worshipper being an ensouled mortal, instead of the sort of "born of the plane" elementals that typically populate the Inner Planes?

Precisely.

So my question is, what kinds of things could keep a pantheon's attention and forces occupied while not over-shadowing the Ebon God?

I mean your problem there is that a pantheon would risk destruction to stop Tharizdun's return if they knew about it and that was the cost required. Shothragot itself is much too large and obvious a problem spot. It's better suited being a distraction for some other plot to breach the binding. Get something in there with some color and personality to it. Something like...

The lore of Shothragot is rare and hard to find; untold centuries would be needed to find more than scraps that mention the herald of dead Tharizdun. For the wizard Ynoc'belial, whose sleep is haunted by the dark promise, those centuries have been worth every moment. A drow male who rose to prominence only to be humiliated by the priestesses of Lolth, Yoliel Cban changed his name and his face and fell in with forces more terrible than the Demon Queen of Spiders. His contempt for the drow matriarchy was stoked into a bitter and nihilistic hatred, for his new cohorts steered the wizard away from any opportunity for self-reflection and the path to redemption at every turn, selling violence and terror as the solution to Ynoc'belial's aimless grudge.

Turning to the teachings of dread Tharizdun, Ynoc'belial became an agent of the ancient nightmare, his reverie-filled trances connecting him to the bliss of Tharizdun's all-consuming hate. Now the wizard has hatched a grand scheme that will violate the nature of the Multiverse and channel historical atrocities long believed lost to time, all by manipulating the agents of the gods to test their mettle against the abomination that is the Dark God's Herald.

Ynoc'belial knows that Shothragot was nearly destroyed during the time of the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire. By allowing it to emerge to threaten the world and preparing a ritual to capitalize on its wounding when the forces of Good invariably respond, Ynoc'belial hopes to use the weakened fabric of realities at the stone circles of Tovag Baragu to connect the present to the past and unleash the full force of the Twin Cataclysms, funnelling the burning of a world into a sacrifice to empower and hopefully release the Author of Wickedness from his Demiplane of Imprisonment. The gods cannot perceive Shothragot directly, and in the face of the herald's threat, they will never notice the threat from beyond time coming their way - not until it is far, far too late.

It's, probably, was already asked at some point, but still: number of effects in the game are referring to a "soul" or "spirit" - such as Astral Projection, Imprison Soul, Magic Jar, Trap the Soul spells, or Astral Seed power.

But Elemental and Outsider types are say:

So, what's will happen if creature of one of those types are affected by such effect?

For the most part, they do in fact just up and vanish - they don't leave a physical form behind. The one that this is weird with is magic jar - obviously the demon physically slipping into the host is a time-honored trope and perfectly fine (and this is usually exactly how it goes down, one way or another) but technically if you displace the demon's soul and magic jar into its body... there shouldn't be a body there to enter. I don't believe the rules have addressed this. Would be interesting to find out.

[Gotham]

Wonderful, great stuff, awesome! That's very evocative and inspiring.

Are there any more references to the Elder Elves who opened the Vast Gate beyond Dungeon 330 (wherein Cerebrotic Blots are described) and Elder Evils (wherein Father Llymic came through the Vast Gate)?

[afroakuma]

Wonderful, great stuff, awesome! That's very evocative and inspiring.

Are there any more references to the Elder Elves who opened the Vast Gate beyond Dungeon 330 (wherein Cerebrotic Blots are described) and Elder Evils (wherein Father Llymic came through the Vast Gate)?

You'd be wanting Gates of Firestorm Peak, which was about the Vast Gate itself.

[Gotham]

Many thanks.

[Dalmosh]

That is a very interesting pick-up regarding the Dogai.

Is the implication here then that they are reformed Ancient Baatorians?

[afroakuma]

That is a very interesting pick-up regarding the Dogai.

Is the implication here then that they are reformed Ancient Baatorians?

Well, deformed, since Asmodeus had them smelted, but yes.

[Gotham]

What is the distinction between a cleric who worships nature and draws divine energy from it and a druid who worships nature(?) and draws divine energy from it?

what is the nature of a divine proxy, or avatar or aspect?

[enderlord99]

What sort of thing would be the magical-knowledge equivalent of "fluent in Rongorongo"

[Efrate]

Polygot feat from ELH is fluent in all non-secret languages. Druidic fluency is likely closest if you consider it a secret language. There is also words of creation from BoED.

[enderlord99]

Polygot feat from ELH is fluent in all non-secret languages. Druidic fluency is likely closest if you consider it a secret language. There is also words of creation from BoED.

I meant metaphorically.

Now that I'm looking back, though, I suppose "metaphorically fluent in Rongorongo" isn't really a reasonable description of anything. I'm not sure why I thought asking it would be a good idea.

[Gauntlet]

If you mean access to knowledge or tools which are otherwise completely inaccessible, there are a reasonable number of examples.

Spell Weavers, for example have culture/history/etc but never communicate outside their race and are immune to most attempts to find it out, so they might be an example of sources of information which is technically not lost, but is mostly inaccessible without a lot of effort (and presumably never discovered in-setting bar PC action).

[afroakuma]

What is the distinction between a cleric who worships nature and draws divine energy from it and a druid who worships nature(?) and draws divine energy from it?

So we're talking non-deity cleric/non-deity druid, then?

Simplest answer would be the cleric is drawing on essential beliefs about nature and is being empowered through Outer Planar conduits; the druid is tapping into the underlying forces of nature and is being empowered through Inner Planar conduits.

what is the nature of a divine proxy, or avatar or aspect?

Those are three very different things. A proxy is an individual who has been endowed with power by a deity to speak in their place and represent them to mortals when needed (the power itself being much too overwhelming for mortals to be around). An avatar is a remote extension of the deity, much lesser in scope but still part and parcel of the same being. An aspect is an outsider created to act as a temporary local representation of the deity and is not the same being; it does not have access to salient divine abilities and is functionally just a powerful herald in the shape of the deity. Aspects rarely exist more than 24 hours, are aware of their existence as aspects and desirous to return to the source when their task is over, and do not have a two-way connection with said source to transfer information directly - the god who dispatches an aspect will only learn what the aspect learned when the aspect is reabsorbed.

What sort of thing would be the magical-knowledge equivalent of "fluent in Rongorongo"

Comprehension of Juna magic would probably do it.

[Sylfr]

Howbdo i navigate to earlier threads?

[Netbrian]

1. What's the largest good-aligned Planar city? (I'm looking for equivalents of Zelatar, Dis, etc.)

2. Is there any lore about planes with infinite cities?

[Gotham]

Is the aspect of a Demon Lord/Archdevil/Elder Evil/etc the same situation? A separate "super-herald"?

Would it be accurate to list their levels of power (assuming the same original entity) as Avatar/Aspect/Proxy in descending order?

Does an Aspect have the memories and knowledge of the original power, even if it knows it is an aspect? Would this be an appropriate set-up for some sort of "clone doesn't want to be re-absorbed" plot, or is there a level of mystic subservience in place?

[Asmotherion]

-is there a way to counter the wild magic trait of the far realm with a spell? i was theorising planar buble or Planar Perinarch but casting those wile there already causes Wild Magic...

-Since the plane itself is highly morphic can you morph it into a steady magic zone as you do on Limbo? Or would you need the spell Planar Perinarch for this?

-Are SLAs/SU subject to Wild magic or only spells?

[unseenmage]

-is there a way to counter the wild magic trait of the far realm with a spell? i was theorising planar buble or Planar Perinarch but casting those wile there already causes Wild Magic...

-Since the plane itself is highly morphic can you morph it into a steady magic zone as you do on Limbo? Or would you need the spell Planar Perinarch for this?

-Are SLAs/SU subject to Wild magic or only spells?

Planar Shepherd, Acorn of Far Travel, and there's an item that'll make you always count as being on your home plane too. Those *should* work. But its the Far Realm, it plays by it's own lack of rules.

[Lord_Gareth]

Howbdo i navigate to earlier threads?

They are linked in the first post of this very thread, my friend. Godspeed, there's a lot of reading to do.

[Bronk]

Howbdo i navigate to earlier threads?

There are links to them embedded in the first post of this thread, where Afroakuma says "The last six threads have covered..."

[Gotham]

Since Elder Evils from the book of the same name are just a collection of weird things powerful and interested enough to end campaigns, would there be anything planar-ly "wrong" with writing up something like an Aspect of Tharizdun (or some other deity who cares) as an Elder Evil (with the signs and anathemic secrecy)?

Although now I have the question what gives something anathemic qualities?

[Sylfr]

Hi. I see that this is the 7th thread. Im pretty new here. Could someone please tell me how navigating to prior related threads works? Id like to peruse the older ones. Links are acceptable too but not prefered as learning how to navigate in the manner i at firat mentioned would greatly increase my over all proficiency with the site as may pertain to future threads of interest i wish to do the same thing with. Thankyou in advance to whoever is willing to assist me.

[Sylfr]

There are links to them embedded in the first post of this thread, where Afroakuma says "The last six threads have covered..."

I didnt see this at first. Thankyou.

[afroakuma]

1. What's the largest good-aligned Planar city? (I'm looking for equivalents of Zelatar, Dis, etc.)

Of those documented, the answer would appear to be Yetsirah.

2. Is there any lore about planes with infinite cities?

Nothing comes to mind.

Is the aspect of a Demon Lord/Archdevil/Elder Evil/etc the same situation? A separate "super-herald"?

Essentially, yes.

Would it be accurate to list their levels of power (assuming the same original entity) as Avatar/Aspect/Proxy in descending order?

That would be accurate in terms of amount of divine power invested, but proxies tend to be extraordinary individuals to begin with and when empowered are likely stronger than an aspect.

Does an Aspect have the memories and knowledge of the original power, even if it knows it is an aspect?

It has such memory and knowledge as it needs to accomplish its charge, and no more than that.

Would this be an appropriate set-up for some sort of "clone doesn't want to be re-absorbed" plot, or is there a level of mystic subservience in place?

It would not be appropriate, no. Aspects are not designed to exist for long periods of time and prefer to return to the source.

-is there a way to counter the wild magic trait of the far realm with a spell? i was theorising planar buble or Planar Perinarch but casting those wile there already causes Wild Magic...

-Since the plane itself is highly morphic can you morph it into a steady magic zone as you do on Limbo? Or would you need the spell Planar Perinarch for this?

If you can pass the wild magic check, planar bubble and planar perinarch will both function in the Far Realm. Usually. The highly morphic trait of the Far Realm does not respond to acts of mental control, so you would need planar perinarch to do this.

-Are SLAs/SU subject to Wild magic or only spells?

SLAs yes, supernatural abilities no.

Since Elder Evils from the book of the same name are just a collection of weird things powerful and interested enough to end campaigns, would there be anything planar-ly "wrong" with writing up something like an Aspect of Tharizdun (or some other deity who cares) as an Elder Evil (with the signs and anathemic secrecy)?

Tharizdun can't dispatch aspects or avatars from within the Demiplane of Imprisonment. An aspect would not be an Elder Evil; the thing projecting it would be. Remember that an aspect is a highly temporary phenomenon.

Although now I have the question what gives something anathemic qualities?

Elder Evils played fast and loose with that particular issue, so much so that the essential answer is "the DM."

[Gotham]

Oof, sorry, now I gotta ask if Tharizdun could empower a Proxy from inside his Purple Crystal of Time-Out.

Also, maybe I misread something in an earlier thread, but wasn't some sliver of Tharizdun related to the corruption of the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Regardless, thanks for the answers, I appreciate it.

[enderlord99]

Oof, sorry, now I gotta ask if Tharizdun could empower a Proxy from inside his Purple Crystal of Time-Out.

The answer is either "Absolutely not" or "He did once; their name was Shothragot" and I'm pretty sure the former is more likely.