The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[ExLibrisMortis]

By this logic, ½ elf is also a valid comparison point..

Valid, but it's useful for establishing an upper boundary, not a lower boundary. If something is weaker than a half-elf, you probably need to assign -0, with the half-elf forming an upper boundary at the low end of +0. If something is stronger than a whisper gnome, you probably need to assign +1 (or higher, as appropriate), with the whisper gnome forming a lower boundary at the high end of +0. But if something is stronger than a half-elf, well... that still gives you the entire +0 range to work with, so it doesn't immediately let you know whether to go for +0 or a positive LA.

[liquidformat]

Valid, but it's useful for establishing an upper boundary, not a lower boundary. If something is weaker than a half-elf, you probably need to assign -0, with the half-elf forming an upper boundary at the low end of +0. If something is stronger than a whisper gnome, you probably need to assign +1 (or higher, as appropriate), with the whisper gnome forming a lower boundary at the high end of +0. But if something is stronger than a half-elf, well... that still gives you the entire +0 range to work with, so it doesn't immediately let you know whether to go for +0 or a positive LA.

Agreed anything worse than a half elf or goblin is easily -0 anything above whisper gnome or water orc is +1.

[danielxcutter]

Oh I'm fine with +2 for the Creeper. I'm just pointing out what the Creeper has to offer.

[Thurbane]

Agreed anything worse than a half elf or goblin is easily -0 anything above whisper gnome or water orc is +1.

I agree with this - solid points of comparison.

[Elkad]

Stalker LA +2 only makes sense compared to rogue 6 and even then due to the loss in HP, BAB, and skill points even ignoring the light sensitivity you are going to be hurting to keep up. However, that is an unreasonable comparison point; Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Assassin 1, Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3, or Barbarian 2/Swordsage 4 with a standard race are all equivalent and all hands down better than a stalker/rogue 1. LA +1 it is a stretch but I can at least see a valid argument for them, at that point the only things it has over Barbarian 2/Swordsage 3 would be a slight edge in ability scores and blindsight but that advantage is once more balanced out by the fact that its Light Sensitivity variant has no easy block and is quite a nasty debuff.

Remember Light Sensitivity is dazed it is a straight up -2 morale penalty on all attacks, saves, checks, and damage rolls in day light or any spell creating the equivalent to daylight spell...

But L6 is the weakest point in the whole build. Those 24 statpoints (compared to maybe 4 on a "normal" race ) compound their value as you level up. At 9hd (L11), 1hp a level makes up for your missing 2d8, and you are ahead from then on. That L6 swordsage has 54 base skill points. The stalker has 22. Big deficit. Except he's got 2 or 3 free skillpoints, times all his skills, in the form of stat bonuses. Even if that's just 6 skills, it's another 15 effective points. Still down somewhat. By L20 he's gained another 14 points from intmod. Putting him a mere 3 skillpoints behind a standard (no int bonus) swordsage. And if the swordsage dipped barb or something to get that str/con bonus from rage, then he lost skillpoints as well.

Meanwhile, he's got better saves (all of them), evasion, better AC, he's better at all the untrained skills, he hits harder (str + sneak attack), carries more, and has BLINDSIGHT. If the DM rules goggles don't work, he could put a bag over his head to block out the sun and be just fine in melee. 2 encounters a day he can use his Fog Cloud to both hide from the sun and blind his enemies. 1 encounter is likely indoors or otherwise not in sunlight. That leaves maybe 1 encounter where he takes the -2 penalty. Which just negates his stat advantages for that single battle. Of course at mid-level, he'll have Shadow Canopy or Protective Penumbra or a Darklight or... and just ignore the penalty anyway.

My vote for Stalker is unchanged (still +2)

[danielxcutter]

I agree with this - solid points of comparison.

It sounds fair - humans don't translate quite well for such comparisons simply because their advantages are of an entirely different kind from numerical bonuses and whatnot. Thus, LA +0 races with reasonably(compared to races with positive LAs) high bonuses are better for the "ceiling", while weak, but still reasonably usable races such as half-elves and goblins work for the floor.

tl;dr These comparisons are better than using humans, at the very least.

But L6 is the weakest point in the whole build. Those 24 statpoints (compared to maybe 4 on a "normal" race ) compound their value as you level up. At 9hd (L11), 1hp a level makes up for your missing 2d8, and you are ahead from then on. That L6 swordsage has 54 base skill points. The stalker has 22. Big deficit. Except he's got 2 or 3 free skillpoints, times all his skills, in the form of stat bonuses. Even if that's just 6 skills, it's another 15 effective points. Still down somewhat. By L20 he's gained another 14 points from intmod. Putting him a mere 3 skillpoints behind a standard (no int bonus) swordsage. And if the swordsage dipped barb or something to get that str/con bonus from rage, then he lost skillpoints as well.

Meanwhile, he's got better saves (all of them), evasion, better AC, he's better at all the untrained skills, he hits harder (str + sneak attack), carries more, and has BLINDSIGHT. If the DM rules goggles don't work, he could put a bag over his head to block out the sun and be just fine in melee. 2 encounters a day he can use his Fog Cloud to both hide from the sun and blind his enemies. 1 encounter is likely indoors or otherwise not in sunlight. That leaves maybe 1 encounter where he takes the -2 penalty. Which just negates his stat advantages for that single battle. Of course at mid-level, he'll have Shadow Canopy or Protective Penumbra or a Darklight or... and just ignore the penalty anyway.

My vote for Stalker is unchanged (still +2)

Note that at higher ECLs the drawbacks tend to be less pronounced, especially in terms of hit points, while at low levels it can be crippling. Either way, it is probably fairest to make comparisons at various stages; two at minimum(high and low levels), and preferably three(including mid-level comparisons) or even more if reasonable.

Oh yeah, and the Stalker gets reasonable-to-high bonuses to literally all stats, so I don't think Rogues and Swordsages have to be the only comparisons; I can easily see Rangers or maybe even Spellthieves.

[Inevitability]

An overwhelming majority voted +2 for the creeper. The stalker was more controversial.

Dark Stalker:
+0: 8 votes
+1: 8 votes
+2: 2 votes

Average vote is slightly above +0.5, median vote is +1, modal vote is +1 or +0.

In the end, the current LA of +1 will be maintained.

[Inevitability]

Darkweaver

Darkweavers are 9 HD medium-sized aberrations that take a shadowy, spider-squid-ish shape.

Their chassis is relatively poor. Aberration HD aren't the greatest, and while bonuses to all stats are nice they don't get exceptionally high in any given area. 20 ft. land speed is very slow, 20 ft. climb speed nearly irrelevant, as is DR 5/magic. SR 16 is the mixed bag it always was. Cold resistance 10 is a neat perk, and so is fast healing 3, so you got those at least.

In terms of natural attacks, the darkweaver... still sucks. Four 1d4 tentacles don't really cut it at ECL 9 (even if they have reach), and the 1d6 bite is only notable for letting you wield mouthpick weapons and damaging strength on a hit. Improved grab on the tentacles is worth something I guess.

Special qualities are better. Shadowstuff Armor is a free +4 deflection bonus to AC, and technically doesn't prevent you from wearing other gear (even though that might've been the intention). All-Around Vision isn't too notable, but occasionally great to have. Shadow Jump is pretty fun, and as long as Shadow Strands are up it can be used.

Shadow Strands, the darkweaver's signature trait, is interesting. It can be turned on and off at-will, and creates a 60 ft. radius aura of progressively worsening concealment (and anything more than 20 ft. away through the shadows gets total concealment). Darkvision and Blindsight can't get around it (though tremorsense presumably can), and on top of its concealment effects it also prevents creatures from easily moving away from the darkweaver. Whether that's a good thing is up for debate: +8 constitution and aberration HD result in less bulk than most monsters have, but it's an interesting niche at least. It also helps alleviate the effects of light sensitivity.

Finally, the SLAs. 3/day Confusion, Darkness, Suggestion, Tongues, and Web are all useful, but not world-shaking. 1/day Shadow Walk gives you something like the 9th-level wizard's Teleport combined with the 9th-level cleric's Plane Shift, but different in various ways. It'll add utility if you don't have both of those classes already, I suppose.

All things considered, I'm just not sure what a darkweaver PC is supposed to do. You can offer concealment to allies, but it'll restrict their movement. You can (kinda) lock enemies down, but you'll also guard them from ranged attacks. Your stats aren't actually that great for melee, and while the random chassis traits are useful they do feel a bit on the underwhelming side. Also, there's the whole thing where most magic items just don't work with your body shape.

I can see arguments for both +0 and -0 here. In the end, the sheer versatility and number of tricks this gets mean that something will be useful enough to warrant a LA of +0.

[Sutr]

+0 it compares pretty well to a Azurin totemist. 3/4 base attack and a natural attack routine, will now compare to a totemist.

Totemist can change its melds so the Darkweaver will have to be able to come up with over 5 soulmeld like effects two binds and 6 essentia. Dark gets +4 to intelligence and +2 to con so its baseline stats should be quite similar with less choices on class skills.

Its tentacles do a D4 but also have reach compares pretty well to girralion claws the +6 to strength gives a damage bonus equal to 3 essentia. Notably 3 behind on grapple checks but has improved grab over the totemist so I believe this is a wash to a soulmeld with a totem bind.

Cold resistance 10, 5/magic, All around vision(+4 to spot /search as well), fast healing which doesn't work in light, Shadowstuff Armor (+10 to hide) are all similar to Soulmelds with moderate investment.

The bite attack has no saving throw so that's nice, but 2d4 strength is pretty good so it compares to a soulmeld without investment for me.

Shadow strands is kinda cool, taking a liberty and counting it as a bind. I'm not sure its useful for a monster in a party though as it might not be friendly enough.

I think that compares pretty favorable to a totemist admitting that the totemist can change and readjust; the Darkweaver gets plain more stuff to compensate. Currently at 7 Soulmelds and 2 binds and roughly an investment of 12.

This isn't touching its other higher stats in wisdom charisma or dex, +8 natural armor, shadow jumps, and spell like abilities. It does have weaknesses like slow speed, light sensitivity, and tentacle regeneration. I could see an argument for +1, but its too far away from shadowpounce abilities, would be good for any late game independent spell list prestige class though.

[Blue Jay]

I'm going to vote for LA -0 for the dark weaver. I ran one of these as a monster once, and I quickly discovered that it just didn't pack enough of a punch to really threaten the party. It would have been much better if I had paired it with a hazard of some kind, so its shadow strands could try to force the PCs into the hazard.

I keep thinking that the strands ought to be a nifty way for a tank to force opponents to face him, but the darkweaver isn't exactly the best tank. The best idea I've been able to come up with is to pair it with another character (either as a cohort or a 2-PC partnership). I'm sure there are opportunities there for creative players, but it feels like something that will take a fair deal of optimization to get working well.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, they seem unfocused for a PC, but as an encounter there certainly could be potential when paired with some other monsters.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think -0 is good for the darkweaver. Even if it has enough abilities, they don't work together to deliver a punch.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0 on the Darkweaver. It feels like the developers had a firm design in mind, got around 3/4 the way through development, then rushed the finish without checking if all the pieces fit together well.

The intent was some sort of battlefield controller that could quickly single out a disable a vulnerable enemy while isolating its allies, but they never gave it enough punch to quickly overpower its prey; so the likely result is a faceslapping contest while the allies slowly but surely work their way through the obstructed battlefield and narrow down its location. Because it also lacks the mobility it needs to be effective. The lack of synergy here really kills the concept.

[Lapak]

+0 it compares pretty well to a Azurin totemist. 3/4 base attack and a natural attack routine, will now compare to a totemist.

I can see where you are going with this comparison, but the problem here is going to be advancement. What class path do you see them taking going forward? If Totemist, they're going to be several levels behind on unlocking chakras - so while this level might be a solid comparison they will lag going forward.

If something else, what path do you forsee? I am willing to be convinced of a +0 but I am not there yet unless there I can see a path to develop forward on.

[Efrate]

Spider squid is a mess. It has lots of independent neat stuff but it lacks power, synergy or cohesion. I like this as a piece of some encounters and makes a good sidekick to lots of stuff but as a pc it just doesn't get there. -0.

Any kind of grappler also is not great without strength, size or full bab and aberration hd are very bad.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Oof, darkweaver is a cool encounter, but this is all over the place for a player. -0, sadly.

[lord_khaine]

Its to hard to decide between LA 0 and LA +1 without access to the specific numbers it gets.
But im sold on something above a negative LA. Shadow Jump and Shadow Strands just seems to effective together.
Make your opponents stumble blindly around in your darkness getting tripped by your tentacles? yes please.

And the advancement also seems rather obvious. Either Swordsage or Warblade.
Both offers different ways to take advantage of its high number of natural attacks.
Either by adding dex to damage, sneak attack, or something third like fire damage.

[Sutr]

I can see where you are going with this comparison, but the problem here is going to be advancement. What class path do you see them taking going forward? If Totemist, they're going to be several levels behind on unlocking chakras - so while this level might be a solid comparison they will lag going forward.

If something else, what path do you forsee? I am willing to be convinced of a +0 but I am not there yet unless there I can see a path to develop forward on.

Not exactly sure any good prestige class; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ll-Progression, anything with shadow pounce, pounce (barbarian and then a prestige), rogue for craven, two levels of totemist is pretty good, evil/law incarnate. Or some kind of tome of battle class?

Kinda favouring Teflammar shadowlord, Divine Crusader, Suel Arcanamach, Blackguard, Ur-Priest? I'd do something with that charisma is what I'm saying, but it has an equal bonus to wisdom.

LA -0 Snip Because it also lacks the mobility it needs to be effective. The lack of synergy here really kills the concept.

What?!? it literally has a list of things that most people want for melee classes. Mobility has shadow jump. Fast healing. Has strength draining bite to make opponents worse and an aura that makes people focus on it. Actually has AC at 17+hit die.


So lets add to my analysis it also is comparable to a wizard, yep going here, a nonscaling wizard.
Wizard Spells per day / Darkententacle Spell like abilities
0: 4
1: 4
2: 4 / Darkness 3/day Web 3/day
3: 3 / Suggestion 3/day tongues 3/day
4: 2 / Confusion 3/day
5: 1
6 / Shadow Walk 1/day

I'm just going to leave this here there is no way that this thing is a -0. Again I'd say its worse, but its not unplayable, certainly not something that should be given extras if a player decides to play one which is what -0 is defined as.

[ViperMagnum357]

What?!? it literally has a list of things that most people want for melee classes. Mobility has shadow jump. Fast healing. Has strength draining bite to make opponents worse and an aura that makes people focus on it. Actually has AC at 17+hit die.


So lets add to my analysis it also is comparable to a wizard, yep going here, a nonscaling wizard.
Wizard Spells per day / Darkententacle Spell like abilities
0: 4
1: 4
2: 4 / Darkness 3/day Web 3/day
3: 3 / Suggestion 3/day tongues 3/day
4: 2 / Confusion 3/day
5: 1
6 / Shadow Walk 1/day

I'm just going to leave this here there is no way that this thing is a -0. Again I'd say its worse, but its not unplayable, certainly not something that should be given extras if a player decides to play one which is what -0 is defined as.

My point is this is a Medium sized grappler that is nine levels and 3 BAB behind whatever build you are going for, and being an Aberration takes away most of the easy methods of increasing size, reach, and Strength; while you have a 10ft reach, you are ineligible for a great many spells, feats, and templates for grappling, including Half-Minotaur and Feral.

And I think people are underestimating the debuff of your sunlight vulnerability. I stand firm at LA -0.

[Thurbane]

Ran one of these hings as an encounter in a published module...it was a headache of an encounter. My players hate grappling monster encounters, and as a DM, so do I.

I think this guy deserves a detailed breakdown before I vote for LA, so I'll do that when time permits, hopefully later today (my time).

[lord_khaine]

My point is this is a Medium sized grappler that is nine levels and 3 BAB behind whatever build you are going for, and being an Aberration takes away most of the easy methods of increasing size, reach, and Strength; while you have a 10ft reach, you are ineligible for a great many spells, feats, and templates for grappling, including Half-Minotaur and Feral.

Except nothing says you have to build or run it like a grappling monster, except in cases where you deal with arcane casters.

[danielxcutter]

Except nothing says you have to build or run it like a grappling monster, except in cases where you deal with arcane casters.

I dunno, but 4 tentacle attacks does have Rapidstrike potential... maybe after advancing HD, though. A Darkweaver advanced to 17 HD is CR 13 and is also Large sized(which also helps with the grappling part, now that I think of it).

...Huh, you know, that might actually be pretty interesting to throw at a party.

[Sutr]

My point is this is a Medium sized grappler that is nine levels and 3 BAB behind whatever build you are going for, and being an Aberration takes away most of the easy methods of increasing size, reach, and Strength; while you have a 10ft reach, you are ineligible for a great many spells, feats, and templates for grappling, including Half-Minotaur and Feral.

And I think people are underestimating the debuff of your sunlight vulnerability. I stand firm at LA -0.

Except with Shadow Strands active that daylight has to originate within 5 ft of the monster to cause the vulnerability. This thing walks around in daylight laughing at it. Its stat bonuses also compensate for -2 to everything except its fort save and concentration checks. How many monsters have daylight as a spell like ability or on their normal spells prepared? What would be a fair amount of aberration hit die for all these abilities?

[Covenant12]

Placeholder, I've looked at this a fair bit and am still uncertain.

Going to go +0. It is very unfocused and I'm a bit concerned about advancement, but it brings a lot of toys. If the party members who need it can have freedom of movement 24/7 those shadows are useful. Getting pounce or shadow pounce isn't overly hard, one of the maneuver that add fire damage to each attack, I think it can keep up. Not the greatest grappler, but with some form of shadow pounce (telflammer shadowlord or swordsage maneuver) you could reach the back line and take out a humanoid-ish caster.

It brings a lot, but a lot of that is unfocused or party-unfriendly.

It doesn't really succeed as a grappler. Medium sized (with reach, true), +6 Str -3 BAB, d8 Hps, +2 Con. Very good AC once you get barding. (maybe RAI implies no, but I'd argue barding is on the table) But this isn't a tank, and "hard-to-move, except at the caster directly" could cause a zerg rush.
I think Orc barbarian with armor spikes and minimal investment is much better for grappling.

5 Attacks, full-BAB classes are about to get 3. Riders like craven, fire damage from ToB classes, I dunno.

Telfammar Shadowlord for many pounces per day with short-range teleport, but damage isn't great. Could eliminate enemy wizards really, until they all get free action 24/7.

Far from hopeless, I just haven't found a +0 path yet. I'll try again later today.

[lord_khaine]

It doesn't really succeed as a grappler. Medium sized (with reach, true), +6 Str -3 BAB, d8 Hps, +2 Con. Very good AC once you get barding. (maybe RAI implies no, but I'd argue barding is on the table) But this isn't a tank, and "hard-to-move, except at the caster directly" could cause a zerg rush.
I think Orc barbarian with armor spikes and minimal investment is much better for grappling.

That still makes it great at grappling npc classes. The ones you want to grabble the most dont have full BAB.
And i disagree, it is a tank. Reach and a sizeable bonus to tripping people gives it a pretty big zone of control.
Where people are forced to deal with it or end facedown on the ground in a area where they cant see a thing.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, we're nearing the 50-page limit! What were the candidates the last time we did this again?

[ixrisor]

Oh, we're nearing the 50-page limit! What were the candidates the last time we did this again?

I’m partial to “I have no mouth and I must S,V,M”.

[Lapak]

I’m partial to “I have no mouth and I must S,V,M”.

I like the reference, but the execution is - and this may be ironic - a little too tortured for me.

[Debatra]

How about "The LA-Assignment Thread +VIII: Way Too Much for Vampirism"

[unseenmage]

I’m partial to “I have no mouth and I must S,V,M”.

I say use it so it gets used.