OOTS #1188 - The Discussion Thread

[drazen]

I'd guess that she wouldn't pick up assassin due to the requirements, namely the one where she has to be Evil and kill one person for the sole reason of picking up the class.

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.

[Draconi Redfir]

He doesn't read the forums any more and hasn't for a long time, but some things are really easy to guess.

i think he has at least some loose idea about what's being said in the forums. Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

maybe someone he knows reads the forums and talks about the goings-on every so often. *shrug*

[Fyraltari]

Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

I am 70% sure you have that backwards.

[Peelee]

i think he has at least some loose idea about what's being said in the forums. Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

maybe someone he knows reads the forums and talks about the goings-on every so often. *shrug*

I'm like 99% sure that comic predated people using those names, and was why people used them.

[Draconi Redfir]

all i know is the Wiki says otherwise.

When his position as High Priest of Hel was known, he was mostly known by that title alone. But since he abdicated the position, the title is confusing as he technically is not currently the High Priest of Hel, and another vampire is. On the discussion boards, the Number of Character Appearances thread refers to him as "Durkon"*. The Class and Level Geekery thread refers to him as Greg. Both names are references to comic #1030, "Naming Names".

if i'm wrong then the wiki is wrong

edit: Okay nevermind. apparently it says both names are references TO that comic page, not referenced IN that comic page.


i'm wrong. nevermind.

[Schroeswald]

I will point out that we do know that The Giant still reads the forums, as of a couple days ago he made a post responding to a thread about calendars, a few weeks ago he made a post about what TDO’s plan and a few months ago he made a few about how the gods work, while (at least according to the outdated FAQ but maybe another post) he doesn’t change his story to appease forumites it’s not out of the question that he added this because he read the speculation (I doubt it though, it is something of a loose end that would feel weird to not get even a passing mention of).

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.

The Assasin’s class entire point seems to me to be for killing stealthily and evily, that’s why it’s requirements are related to those two things, Assassin has a very negative connotation so I’d doubt the Giant would say “let’s ignore the rules about Assassins and make Haley one” (oh and she did have a reason to kill Crystal, to stop her from killing more people, else she would have been doing some redemption of her own this book). And I’m pretty sure that all Haley would even want to pick up is a Weapon Focus (which she doesn’t even have for her main weapon), Rogues already do good enough with daggers/short swords as it is.

[Riftwolf]

She could be training up Weapon Finesse, or even just getting in some practice with close combat because she's rusty on it (which isn't a d&d mechanic, but is a real world one)

[Grey Watcher]

She could be training up Weapon Finesse, or even just getting in some practice with close combat because she's rusty on it (which isn't a d&d mechanic, but is a real world one)

Yeah, the attack of opportunity rules can be a bit of challenge to remember, so some cramming does seem in order.

[Monstar3014]

I strongly suspect the recipient of the Sending to be the next comic's cliffhanger. Either A: the recipient is dead/incapacitated or B: somehow it's intercepted/ too late. The Airship runs at the Speed of Plot so they'll show up AS Xykon realizes the gate is underneath him and not behind one of the doors.

I'm so proud of everyone growing up so much; Haley planning ahead and compensating for her weakness, Belkar caring about the plot. It's great to see Elan as such a great leader and demonstrate his high Charisma score.

Great work, Giant!

[Peelee]

I think both good and evil need to be constantly reinforced in thought and deed or they wear down towards neutral, and Belkar's actions this book don't seem evil (or good) in the slightest to me. I'd call him capital-n Neutral, but I don't really know how DnD alignment works.

So Vader kills a bunch of kids and goes to the beach, so he's now Neutral because he's not actively killing kids? Nope, I don't buy it. And I highly doubt the Nine Hells or Abyss would either.

What's the worst think Belkar's done since the thieves guild plot?

See above.

Because the best thing he's done is make a significant contribution to saving the world at great personal risk and what will probably turn out to be great personal sacrifice.

Tarquin made a significant contribution to saving the world by giving the Order help, including a flying carpet. If Nale had killed Tarquin just then, would he have been Neutral because his last acts were helping to save the world?

Belkar isn't in this to save the world. At best, he wants the world to not end. That's as noble as Xykon (who, I should point out, literally said he didn't want the world to end). I'll be saving the party poppers.

I think your analogy fails for the reason above. He's actively doing good.

No, he's actively doing what he wants to, and it just so happens to align with something that's good. If I fired three shots into a crowd and the bullets all hit people who were kidnapping a child and attempting to kill the parents, would you argue that i was actively doing good, or that I just got damned lucky?

Peelee, I think the issue here is that you're not objecting to people actually saying that Belkar is CN, or definitely going to be redeemed, or even on the road to redemption/CN.

No, I'm pretty much objecting to people saying Belkar is CN. I am in spirit objecting that he's definitely going to be redeemed/on the road to redemption, almost entirely because he doesn't give a hoot about it and if he doesn't why the hell should I (or anyone else, for that matter)? Redemption should go to people who actually want it. But I realize that is unlikely given all of the foreshadowing (such as his speech on how people change gradually, or the clasp which can super easily indicate that he's no longer Evil). It's mostly me voicing how I'm not terribly thrilled with how it looks like Belkar's story is going to go, especially since we have a paladin saying directly to someone that did want redemption and was trying (albeit in a severely misguided way) that redemption is a rare and special thing. How rare and special is it when some jackhole who doesn't even care about it can just stumble across it?

[Petrocorus]

To be fair to belkar, I don't think he's stabbed a random stranger for no reason since the gladiator pit. And that was at least two weeks ago!

For Thor's sake, it has only been a couple of weeks indeed.
Is there a timeline of important events of the OotS? I'm losing tracks of time between events.

This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

This is perfectly possible. The placement is indeed conspicuous. Panels 8 and 9 could perfectly have been inverted.

Panels 8 and 9 could perfectly have been inverted.

Wait, is this sentence proper English?
How do i translate past conditional in English?

[Peelee]

Wait, is this sentence proper English?
How do i translate past conditional in English?

"Perfectly" could have been left off entirely, or put at the end of that sentence for a slightly more natural read.

[Petrocorus]

"Perfectly" could have been left off entirely, or put at the end of that sentence for a slightly more natural read.

Thank you.

[Lescha]

Guys, this is the first time I am writing to this forum, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question or have been discussed earlier or whatever.
Does "end of this book" also mean "end of OOTS comic", or not?
I remember The Giant saying something a long time ago, about how plot will end "before the end of the year", and then making clear he meant "in-plot year".
Thanks a bunch!

[Peelee]

Guys, this is the first time I am writing to this forum, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question or have been discussed earlier or whatever.

I'll never forgive you!

Does "end of this book" also mean "end of OOTS comic", or not?
I remember The Giant saying something a long time ago, about how plot will end "before the end of the year", and then making clear he meant "in-plot year".
Thanks a bunch!

Nah, it's not the end of the comic. The online comic is broken up into several books. Each book has its own overarching theme and plotlines that play into the larger, overall entire-comic-plot. There are five books out now, the next strip is going to be the end of the sixth book, and the rest of the comic will be the seventh book (and the final book in the online comic, IIRC).

There's going to be a hiatus in all likelihood, but there will be more comic afterwards.

[hamishspence]

It's the end of this book, not of the comic as a whole. However, it's been stated that there will be 7 books (not counting prequels, side stories, etc) - and this one is book 6.

As to "end of the year" that's Belkar's prophesy

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

and studies of the timeline have shown that there's a few weeks of in-universe time left.

[dmc91356]

There is one more book that will contain the strips from 1190 through the end of the story. The Giant has confirmed that this is the second to last book just ending and that 1189 will be the last strip.

Pelee - I think I'm with you on the Belkar thing. I thing he is still a CE little bastard, who is finally getting rudimentary emotions other than anger, greed, selfishness and hate. I don't think he is near CN, and to me, the most appropriate ending for him would be to finally figure out that maybe he did something wrong somewhere and should do something about it and then, WHAM, he dies right then and there and we see him in the CE afterlife. That would make for a nice ending IMO.

[understatement]

Durkon, you clever dwarf.

Drunk ROY: the sequel.

Is V Sending to Serini? Redcloak? the paladins? (I'm guessing the latter, probably)

[happycrow]

I need a Bag Of Adorable Tucking for Christmas.

Holy character development, half-man!

[happycrow]

So Vader kills a bunch of kids and goes to the beach, so he's now Neutral because he's not actively killing kids? Nope, I don't buy it. And I highly doubt the Nine Hells or Abyss would either.

Regardless of whether that would hold, we do see character development here. An interest in the story, courtesy given for its own sake without prodding or expectation of gain, and the associated "giving a toss what people think" indicate that something has shifted. Enough? I don't know.

[Bedinsis]

I see a lot of speculation that next page will reveal something. Quite understandable, since last book ended with the reveal that the entity controlling Durkon's body wasn't Durkon, and the second to last book ended with the reveal that there is a planet within the snarl.

Something that surprised me was that Vaarsuvius apparently can cast Sending. I did not know they could do that.

The thing I wonder about is the "the artifact" and the "appropriate vessel" the fiends talked about. Does that mean Sabine will possess someone's body? I dunno, it's just that the fiends and Sabine were entirely unmentioned for the entirety of this book, save for that page. Feels like a cut-away if it isn't followed up on.

[Lescha]

I'll never forgive you!


Nah, it's not the end of the comic. The online comic is broken up into several books. Each book has its own overarching theme and plotlines that play into the larger, overall entire-comic-plot. There are five books out now, the next strip is going to be the end of the sixth book, and the rest of the comic will be the seventh book (and the final book in the online comic, IIRC).

There's going to be a hiatus in all likelihood, but there will be more comic afterwards.

It's the end of this book, not of the comic as a whole. However, it's been stated that there will be 7 books (not counting prequels, side stories, etc) - and this one is book 6.

As to "end of the year" that's Belkar's prophesy

and studies of the timeline have shown that there's a few weeks of in-universe time left.

There is one more book that will contain the strips from 1190 through the end of the story. The Giant has confirmed that this is the second to last book just ending and that 1189 will be the last strip.

Pelee - I think I'm with you on the Belkar thing. I thing he is still a CE little bastard, who is finally getting rudimentary emotions other than anger, greed, selfishness and hate. I don't think he is near CN, and to me, the most appropriate ending for him would be to finally figure out that maybe he did something wrong somewhere and should do something about it and then, WHAM, he dies right then and there and we see him in the CE afterlife. That would make for a nice ending IMO.

Ah, got it!
Thanks all!

[Peelee]

Regardless of whether that would hold, we do see character development here. An interest in the story, courtesy given for its own sake without prodding or expectation of gain, and the associated "giving a toss what people think" indicate that something has shifted. Enough? I don't know.

Again, I do not and have never contested character development. What I contest is the idea that "character development" means "is becoming more Good." He could go through character development and separately become more Good. But arguments based on "he is more Good, because there is character development" are not ever going to fly with me.

[Emperor Time]

Glad to hear that none of them will be dying from Sphinx Pox after all. Also it nice that Elan is getting Minrah up to date on everything that happen to the party before she joined.

[bunsen_h]

Re: Belkar... how sure are we that that's really Belkar in there? "So, uh... wanna fill me in on my history? Because I, uh, wasn't paying attention." And I don't want to blow my characterization.

Re: V, I could see a message to their former partner and family: a simple apology, not trying to justify what they'd done or ask forgiveness. Something like Miles's letter to Ekaterin in Bujold's A Civil Campaign, though losing quite a bit for being crunched down to 25 words.

[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Again, I do not and have never contested character development. What I contest is the idea that "character development" means "is becoming more Good." He could go through character development and separately become more Good. But arguments based on "he is more Good, because there is character development" are not ever going to fly with me.

Yeah, if character development=Good, then Redcloak is Good. Good equals Good, and character development means you're less of a cardboard cutout. And lets be real here, Belkar is more of a low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

[Petrocorus]

Concerning Belkar, he doesn't seem to be any Good or even Neutral. But does seem to be less Evil.

Re: Belkar... how sure are we that that's really Belkar in there? "So, uh... wanna fill me in on my history? Because I, uh, wasn't paying attention." And I don't want to blow my characterization.

You mean to tell me that Belkar is in fact RedCloak's niece?

Re: V, I could see a message to their former partner and family: a simple apology, not trying to justify what they'd done or ask forgiveness. Something like Miles's letter to Ekaterin in Bujold's A Civil Campaign, though losing quite a bit for being crunched down to 25 words.

Oh my... a Vorkosigan reference. I don't see many of that this days.

[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).

I though when i first read this strip that the title was referencing the position of the ship in regards of the sun facing the reader.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, if character development=Good, then Redcloak is Good. Good equals Good, and character development means you're less of a cardboard cutout. And lets be real here, Belkar is more of a low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

Yes, but now he's a HIGHER RESOLUTION low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

Just get those magical CSI image analysis tools I see on TV to work on it, and he'll be a real boy in no time at all.

Admittedly, he'd be a CE real boy, but it would be something.

[bunsen_h]

Oh my... a Vorkosigan reference. I don't see many of that this days.

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I though when i first read this strip that the title was referencing the position of the ship in regards of the sun facing the reader.

If we assume that the Mechane is flying directly left-to-right across the page and is heading due north, then our viewpoint is looking directly west. That puts the sun at sunset, slightly left of centre in the panel, at a little bit south of west. But just at this moment, the 3D relationship between that, the time of year, the Mechane's latitude, and the axial tilt is beyond me. I don't have a sextant (nor any of the sort-of homophones). I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.

[Peelee]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I like the first sentence, not the second so much.